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Canon 5Ds at 50.6MP, is that right?

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#51 Jon Rista

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 01:37 PM

Mike, the use of a cancellation filter is simpler. If you change the optical path to the sensor, you change the plane of focus. By using a cancellation filter (which, BTW, is the exact same thing that Nikon did with the D800 and D800e), you maintain the thickness and overall optical qualities of the filter stack. Then your just done...you don't have to deal with any firmware hacks to automatically adjust the lens focus to handle the offset in a camera where the filter stack is entirely different.

 

Nikon and Sony dropped the LPF entirely because they have only one model of those cameras. There are no variants, so they don't have to bother with worrying about little quirks like you do with the 5Ds/R and D800/e.



#52 Footbag

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 01:52 PM

The thing I find a bit odd is that the pixels are pretty darn small.  It seems Canon may have made major improvements in noise levels, but lost it by using such a small pixeled sensor.  For general photography, isn't the pixel size (and how it relates to noise)more important then the crop factor?

 

I was a pessimist when the 7DII came out, but I think they have done a nice job with it.  The frame rate is insane, and IQ seems pretty good.  Great noise performance.

 

I'm hoping they really deliver with this body.  Unfortunately, I don't think this one is for the AP guys.  The 6D seems to be the goto full frame now.  



#53 Jon Rista

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:27 PM

The thing I find a bit odd is that the pixels are pretty darn small.  It seems Canon may have made major improvements in noise levels, but lost it by using such a small pixeled sensor.  For general photography, isn't the pixel size (and how it relates to noise)more important then the crop factor?


This is a common misunderstanding. For general photography, the biggest factor is the total light gathered. There have been some extensive discussions about this topic, and some great writups, as it's called "Equivalence".

Assuming your framing a person for a portrait. If you have an APS-C and a FF camera at your disposal, and your goal is to make the same photo with both. The FF has several advantages (regardless of it's pixel size). Because the frame is larger, you have to get closer to your subject. That reduces DOF, increasing background blur (desirable for portraits specifically, but for many other things as well.) Once you have identical framing, the larger frame of the FF camera is gathering more total light than the APS-C camera.

On an equal output magnification basis, the FF camera, when downsampled to the same image dimensions as the APS-C image, is still better. The increased pixel count is averaged together, which increases SNR. If you have the same pixel size as a smaller sensor, it also gathered more spatial information, so that additional detail results in a sharper, crisper downsampled image than the natively sized APS-C image. On the other hand, you could shoot the same scene with a FF and APS-C camera, both of which have the same pixel count. The FF camera has larger pixels, so the per-pixel SNR is still higher. You don't gain in resolution (and you could well suffer the consequences of larger pixels...aliasing and moire)...but the image is still better. The larger sensor gathered more light. It doesn't really matter how big the pixels are...on a normalized basis, SNR is still going to be higher with the larger sensor.

Few photographers seem to understand this, and that's always confused me. But in the grand scheme of things, bigger sensor == better pictures when it comes to general photography. That is why medium format is still so desired by so many studio photographers. Despite the fact that for some time, after the advent of the Pentax K-5 and Nikon D7000 (the first couple of cameras to use Sony's then-new high DR Exmor sensors), medium format sensors did not have the same per-pixel IQ, the significantly larger sensor area (as well as more stringent manufacturing tolerances, to some degree) still produced better results.

On an equal-dimensions basis, there is very little to fear from smaller pixels. Assuming read noise is low (which, sadly, is probably NOT the case with the 5Ds, since it's Canon and Canon just seems to refuse to address their read noise issues), smaller pixels can never really be worse than larger pixels when the sensor is the same size or larger than the sensor of whatever camera you are comparing it to. Just about anything with a Sony Exmor sensor is going to have a flat read noise curve (average 3e- across all ISO settings, all sensor sizes, etc.) Comparing Exmor-based cameras is pretty easy, as read noise tends to be meaninglessly low relative to the image signal. A 5Ds should produce better quality than a 5D III or even a 1D X when the images are normalized (at low ISO, this may not be completely true, due to the high read noise). A 5Ds will certainly produce better quality than a 7D II on a normalized basis, even though the two have nearly identical pixel sizes. Because the larger frame of the 5Ds, with identical framing, will gather more total light.

The one situation where this is not true is when you are reach-limited. If you are photographing a bird or a deer, and you cannot get closer, you are going to use the same absolute area of the sensor for your subject. A bigger frame is just going to capture more space around your subject. In the reach-limited scenario, bigger pixels mean higher per-pixel SNR, but lower spatial resolution. Smaller pixels mean lower per-pixel SNR, but higher spatial resolution. For the most part, bird and wildlife photographers who are reach limited choose smaller pixels, despite their potential issues...because you can always downsample to the same dimenstions as the sensor with larger pixels, and most of those issues are averaged out and detail is still crisper.

-----

When it comes to astrophotography, there pretty much isn't anything more reach limited. :p As such, or us, it's all about sampling rate and/or field of view. I think the 5DsR could be a great camera for short focal length, wide field imaging that would give us a much better image scale than existing DSLRs. I'd take 4.14µm pixels over 6.5µm pixels for wide field imaging every time.

My biggest concern so far are the statements that Canon has still not moved off their 500nm fab (in contrast, Sony uses 180nm fabs and Samsung is apparently using a 65nm fab!!), and that the 5Ds/R have the same read noise as the 5D III (!!!...more than the 6D???). I'm quite dismayed by the statements that the 5Ds has the same read noise as the 5D III. I know my 5D III very well. It's read noise is really high at lower ISOs (and doesn't have the greatest characteristic at higher ISOs), and it's the thing I hate the most about it.

I was hoping the 5Ds would have read noise more like the 6D or 7D II at the very least, which is lower, not a lot but still lower, than all their predecessors. The 6D has something around 25e- RN, where as the 5D III has closer to 35e- RN, at ISO 100. I honestly cannot see how that could possibly lead to better low ISO IQ than the D810 or A7r, both of which have ~4.5e- RN at ISO 100 (and about two stops or more dynamic range). All the rumors and the press release kept touting the low ISO IQ of the 5Ds, but without any improvement in read noise (over the 6D even, let alone the 5D III), I think the 5Ds is going to be a flop...at least from a competitive IQ standpoint. Personally, I'd still take the D810 with it's 36.3mp FF sensor over the 5Ds. The significantly lower noise/significantly higher dynamic range is going to mean each and every pixel is better quality...I could probably upsample D810 images to 5Ds size and barely be able to tell the difference, and most of the difference would be in terms of spatial resolution. That...is a really disappointing thought...at least to me. Quite, quite dismayed at the early reports of the 5Ds read noise.

#54 Footbag

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:51 PM

 

The thing I find a bit odd is that the pixels are pretty darn small.  It seems Canon may have made major improvements in noise levels, but lost it by using such a small pixeled sensor.  For general photography, isn't the pixel size (and how it relates to noise)more important then the crop factor?


This is a common misunderstanding. For general photography, the biggest factor is the total light gathered. There have been some extensive discussions about this topic, and some great writups, as it's called "Equivalence".

Assuming your framing a person for a portrait. If you have an APS-C and a FF camera at your disposal, and your goal is to make the same photo with both. The FF has several advantages (regardless of it's pixel size). Because the frame is larger, you have to get closer to your subject. That reduces DOF, increasing background blur (desirable for portraits specifically, but for many other things as well.) Once you have identical framing, the larger frame of the FF camera is gathering more total light than the APS-C camera.

On an equal output magnification basis, the FF camera, when downsampled to the same image dimensions as the APS-C image, is still better. The increased pixel count is averaged together, which increases SNR. If you have the same pixel size as a smaller sensor, it also gathered more spatial information, so that additional detail results in a sharper, crisper downsampled image than the natively sized APS-C image. On the other hand, you could shoot the same scene with a FF and APS-C camera, both of which have the same pixel count. The FF camera has larger pixels, so the per-pixel SNR is still higher. You don't gain in resolution (and you could well suffer the consequences of larger pixels...aliasing and moire)...but the image is still better. The larger sensor gathered more light. It doesn't really matter how big the pixels are...on a normalized basis, SNR is still going to be higher with the larger sensor.

Few photographers seem to understand this, and that's always confused me. But in the grand scheme of things, bigger sensor == better pictures when it comes to general photography. That is why medium format is still so desired by so many studio photographers. Despite the fact that for some time, after the advent of the Pentax K-5 and Nikon D7000 (the first couple of cameras to use Sony's then-new high DR Exmor sensors), medium format sensors did not have the same per-pixel IQ, the significantly larger sensor area (as well as more stringent manufacturing tolerances, to some degree) still produced better results.

On an equal-dimensions basis, there is very little to fear from smaller pixels. Assuming read noise is low (which, sadly, is probably NOT the case with the 5Ds, since it's Canon and Canon just seems to refuse to address their read noise issues), smaller pixels can never really be worse than larger pixels when the sensor is the same size or larger than the sensor of whatever camera you are comparing it to. Just about anything with a Sony Exmor sensor is going to have a flat read noise curve (average 3e- across all ISO settings, all sensor sizes, etc.) Comparing Exmor-based cameras is pretty easy, as read noise tends to be meaninglessly low relative to the image signal. A 5Ds should produce better quality than a 5D III or even a 1D X when the images are normalized (at low ISO, this may not be completely true, due to the high read noise). A 5Ds will certainly produce better quality than a 7D II on a normalized basis, even though the two have nearly identical pixel sizes. Because the larger frame of the 5Ds, with identical framing, will gather more total light.

The one situation where this is not true is when you are reach-limited. If you are photographing a bird or a deer, and you cannot get closer, you are going to use the same absolute area of the sensor for your subject. A bigger frame is just going to capture more space around your subject. In the reach-limited scenario, bigger pixels mean higher per-pixel SNR, but lower spatial resolution. Smaller pixels mean lower per-pixel SNR, but higher spatial resolution. For the most part, bird and wildlife photographers who are reach limited choose smaller pixels, despite their potential issues...because you can always downsample to the same dimenstions as the sensor with larger pixels, and most of those issues are averaged out and detail is still crisper.

-----

When it comes to astrophotography, there pretty much isn't anything more reach limited. :p As such, or us, it's all about sampling rate and/or field of view. I think the 5DsR could be a great camera for short focal length, wide field imaging that would give us a much better image scale than existing DSLRs. I'd take 4.14µm pixels over 6.5µm pixels for wide field imaging every time.

My biggest concern so far are the statements that Canon has still not moved off their 500nm fab (in contrast, Sony uses 180nm fabs and Samsung is apparently using a 65nm fab!!), and that the 5Ds/R have the same read noise as the 5D III (!!!...more than the 6D???). I'm quite dismayed by the statements that the 5Ds has the same read noise as the 5D III. I know my 5D III very well. It's read noise is really high at lower ISOs (and doesn't have the greatest characteristic at higher ISOs), and it's the thing I hate the most about it.

I was hoping the 5Ds would have read noise more like the 6D or 7D II at the very least, which is lower, not a lot but still lower, than all their predecessors. The 6D has something around 25e- RN, where as the 5D III has closer to 35e- RN, at ISO 100. I honestly cannot see how that could possibly lead to better low ISO IQ than the D810 or A7r, both of which have ~4.5e- RN at ISO 100 (and about two stops or more dynamic range). All the rumors and the press release kept touting the low ISO IQ of the 5Ds, but without any improvement in read noise (over the 6D even, let alone the 5D III), I think the 5Ds is going to be a flop...at least from a competitive IQ standpoint. Personally, I'd still take the D810 with it's 36.3mp FF sensor over the 5Ds. The significantly lower noise/significantly higher dynamic range is going to mean each and every pixel is better quality...I could probably upsample D810 images to 5Ds size and barely be able to tell the difference, and most of the difference would be in terms of spatial resolution. That...is a really disappointing thought...at least to me. Quite, quite dismayed at the early reports of the 5Ds read noise.

 

 

 

Good post Jon, but doesn't this depend on the fact that you are doing other things to make the image the "same".  Obviously, with a FF, you get a wider FOV.  You can use a different lens to take advantage of that, and provide a higher SNR image.  But isn't it the lens doing the work in this case?  

 

Using the same telescope or lens, would there be any advantage?  The same amount of light is falling on the same surface area, then FF just has a larger FOV.  



#55 Jon Rista

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 03:45 PM

Good post Jon, but doesn't this depend on the fact that you are doing other things to make the image the "same".  Obviously, with a FF, you get a wider FOV.  You can use a different lens to take advantage of that, and provide a higher SNR image.  But isn't it the lens doing the work in this case?


Sorry, maybe my terminology was poor. When I stated "same framing", I mean same FoV. You can achieve that one of two ways...longer lens, or get closer. With portraiture and weddings, one of the key areas where bigger sensors are strongly desired, you usually just get close. I've been to a few weddings where I've watched the photographers closely. Most use the 5D III or D750/D810 kind of cameras. When they get in close on the bride and groom during the ceremony, the primary is usually RIGHT there. (Good ones tend to go unnoticed...less skilled wedding photographers often get sideways looks for being too intrusive. :p) Anyway...you can close the field of view just by getting closer. Either way, you increase the SNR of the image with a larger sensor relative to a smaller sensor.

There is a great article on the topic of "equivalence" that I'll link. I'll have to find it, been a while since I last dug it up...but it's a great read. I still think it applies more to daytime photography than to astrophotography, but the fundamental concepts are good to know, regardless.
 

Using the same telescope or lens, would there be any advantage?  The same amount of light is falling on the same surface area, then FF just has a larger FOV.


Your last sentence there is the embodiment of reach-limited photography. When the photon flux per unit area is the same, the only benefit of a larger sensor is that you have a larger field. If your photographing a little shorebird...or a galaxy...the extra field is just wasted space. Either a smaller sensor, or the ability to automatically crop the larger sensors' field (the 5Ds will have two crop modes, 1.3x and 1.6x, built right into the camera), would then be beneficial. (Alternatively, with the bird...if you have the skill...you can creep in closer with the larger sensor and once again get better results. ;P)

With astrophotography, we are perpetually in the "reach limited" zone. Everything is effectively at "infinity". We are also concerned about different things than with daytime photography...so I don't know that the concept much applies. It is still a valid concept...it just doesn't apply in the context of astrophotography. I think the big thing for us is either getting the field of view we want (ignoring image scale), or getting the image scale we want (ignoring field of view). I currently choose to image with a short scope and a huge sensor...because I really love the field. I kind of stopped thinking about image scale a while ago, because getting high resolution detail isn't exactly my goal...capturing huge, expansive, colorful fields is really what I want to do right now. Once Galaxy season hits, my goals will flip. It'll be all about image scale then, and I'll want entirely different equipment. Most of what I'd be interested in imaging would be small, so having a large field just wouldn't be all that valuable. Pixel size becomes much more important than sensor size.

All these choices are for entirely different reasons than the choices I make for my daytime photography, though.

#56 Footbag

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 04:00 PM

OK.  I wasn't certain if you were making some distinction between framing and FOV.  But I do understand what you are saying.  Definitely more applicable in terrestrial.  Pretty interesting in that sense. 

 

Cutting the distance between myself and the stars, now that's a technique I have to work on. :grin:



#57 mmalik

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 04:05 PM

Then your just done...you don't have to deal with any firmware hacks to automatically adjust the lens focus to handle the offset in a camera where the filter stack is entirely different.

 

Well, that's cutting corners on Canon's part; all the extra LPF glass that doesn't need to be there is still there in 'R'. If you take the purity of the signal, don't you think something is getting lost in anti-aliasing and re-aliasing, no matter how miniscule? All I am saying is they didn't do their homework on 'R' and that looks bad when compared to R's of Sony and others. Regards


Edited by mmalik, 06 February 2015 - 04:12 PM.


#58 Jon Rista

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 04:18 PM

Then your just done...you don't have to deal with any firmware hacks to automatically adjust the lens focus to handle the offset in a camera where the filter stack is entirely different.

 
Well, that's cutting corners on Canon's part; all the extra LPF glass that doesn't need to be there is still there in 'R'. If you take the purity of the signal, don't you think something is getting lost in anti-aliasing and re-aliasing, no matter how miniscule. All I am saying is they didn't do their homework on 'R' and that looks bad when compared to R's of Sony and others. Regards


Yes, I do. It was actually measured with the D800E...people modded them, removing the filter stack entirely, and they did get sharper images. But very marginally sharper. I also have a hard time believing Canon didn't do their homework. I don't like that Canon has been so slow to bring more competitive cameras to market, and I still feel that they are behind the competition. However I definitely do not believe they did not do their homework. If anything, I think Canon does way too much "homework" (R&D), without actually putting to use the things they learn. Canon has a LOT of cutting edge technologies, a lot of them on the sensor front...and they just aren't employing them when they really should be. So...no, I don't think Canon made the decision they did with regards to using a frequency merging filter like they did. They know exactly what they are doing, and why, and what all the consequences of it are, and they know exactly how much it affects their cost vs. profit margins. Canon is a highly intelligent company full of highly intelligent people. They are just...very conservative.


Personally, in the grand scheme of things, if it means the cost of the camera is another few hundred dollars chaper than it otherwise would have been by doing the "best" thing, that's fine by me. I think the difference between using a canceling filter vs. removing the LPFs entirely is going to be very minuscule. For the intended audience for the 5Ds R, I truly don't think the difference is going to matter. I think that various sources of camera shake are going to result in more blurring than the cancellation filter.

For astro, it might matter a tiny smidgen if your undersampled, but again...eh, I don't think it's going to matter enough to actually matter. It's not what I would have really wanted, but given the testing some of the D800E owners did, the difference is so small it's basically meaningless.

#59 JohnH

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 04:19 PM

50.6 MPix ? One word - ridiculous, what about 75 Mpix ?..

And as if 50.6 MPix isn't over the top , how about this (75 Mpix) beast http://petapixel.com...pixel-pro-dslr/

I'd be more than happy to upgrade from my now venerable 40D to something like a 60D or 7D (but they are expensive here and I can't justify the $ on a camera body).

I think this makes a logical place to make a full frame body.

 

My 7D has 18M pixels and if you extend this pixel density to a full frame, you get around 46M pixels.

 

I would really like to have one coupled to my 200mm f/1.8 for some wide field astrophotography



#60 mmalik

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 04:14 PM

$4K ball game...

 

 

• 5DS R  $3,899... [Low-Pass Filter Effect Cancellation]

 

• 5DS  $3,699...

 

• D810A  $3,796.95... [No Optical Low Pass Filter]

 

 

 

post-205769-0-99191000-1425407067.jpg


Edited by mmalik, 01 April 2015 - 10:38 PM.


#61 drd715

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:33 AM

If any other company released a 50 megapixel full frame camera with TERRIBLE noise characteristics and even worse dynamic range everyone would instantly dismiss it for A.P. Why is it that we are even talking about this camera for D.S.O Astrophotography?

 

Everything about it is counterproductive for A.P. Its pixels are WAY too small. In addition the technology behind the pixels is way outdated. Finally, the camera body is way too big.

 

Even Canon admits that this camera is going to perform like the 5D MKIII with respect to noise. That camera is terrible for noise and making the pixels MUCH SMALLER isn’t going to help that.

 

This camera will probably be outstanding for moon images. I will give it that. Put it on a big SCT and start snapping away. However, even its movie mode is very limited so it might not be that great even for solar system stuff.

 

I had high hopes for the Canon EOS-M3. However, even that camera doesn’t really look so hot with all of those extra pixels. Plus they aren’t even selling it in the U.S. and I bet it is just as crippled as the original one was.

 

I understand that people will still buy this camera and probably even get some good A.P. shots with it. However, it will take so much more time, effort, and money to get this camera to do what practically any other camera can do with respect to A.P.

 

So if the 5dlll is "terrible for noise" - reading the specs and reports I don't disagree with you on that point - What then is the best choice and best value for a low noise body??  The reason I ask, I am planning to buy a body for land and astro use by the end of this year  The Nikon D750 looks good as well as the D7200, but I would prefer the full size sensor for use at 1750mm fl.  Not being rich I have a budget under $2000 and would like to go lower so the extra$$ can be used for other astrophotography items (camera mods etc.).  Some of my decision making thoughts toward a new body are the astro  after market support for Cannon seems to be better ( control programs for capture, user friendly features for live view focus etc.), but I have several Nikon AF lenses left over from a dead N-90 film Camera (could be sold and a full switch to Cannon).  Primarily looking at the D-750 for features and low noise or the Canon  6D for after market support (Ha pass filter available) and the 6D should just about be due for an update? Still looking, maybe other options.  Your thoughts?   --Dan--



#62 Samir Kharusi

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:26 AM

A good target is always to aim for sampling your seeing at around an arc-second per pixel, assuming your seeing on a reasonably steady night comes out with a FWHM of 2 arc-sec. For a focal length of 1750mm an arc-sec per pixel implies a pixel width of 8.5 microns, so all you need for full 35mm format is a typical SBIG 11 MP camera. Closest daytime use camera I can think of would be the Sony A7s. The major advantage of smaller pixels, and this is not to be sniffed at, considering that the OTA often costs much more than the camera, is the ability to use a shorter focal length and still achieve the same sampling. At 4.1 micron pixel pitch the 50 MP Canon should be able to achieve one arc-sec per pixel sampling with a fl of around 850mm. E.g. if you happen to own a typical 150mm APO you could end up very happy with the 50 MP camera. Ditto if you own a 600mm camera lens and stick on a 1.4x tele-extender (840mm fl). No, with a 1750mm fl you ought to look for large pixels to be efficient and contented in your photon gathering. Really tiny pixels enable you to use a Hyperstar and still capture nice detail in quite remote galaxies.

 

Similar reasoning applies to planetary video capture. The aim there is typically a focal ratio of, say 5x the pixel pitch in microns to sample the diffraction (not seeing) FWHM adequately. The Sony A7s would require a focal ratio of f40, while the 50 MP camera (4.1 micron pitch) would require a focal ratio of around f20. f40 is very dim compared to f20, hence the A7s had better be a lot more sensitive, otherwise your achievable frame rates drop into mediocrity.



#63 drd715

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 07:50 PM

A good target is always to aim for sampling your seeing at around an arc-second per pixel, assuming your seeing on a reasonably steady night comes out with a FWHM of 2 arc-sec. For a focal length of 1750mm an arc-sec per pixel implies a pixel width of 8.5 microns, so all you need for full 35mm format is a typical SBIG 11 MP camera. Closest daytime use camera I can think of would be the Sony A7s. The major advantage of smaller pixels, and this is not to be sniffed at, considering that the OTA often costs much more than the camera, is the ability to use a shorter focal length and still achieve the same sampling. At 4.1 micron pixel pitch the 50 MP Canon should be able to achieve one arc-sec per pixel sampling with a fl of around 850mm. E.g. if you happen to own a typical 150mm APO you could end up very happy with the 50 MP camera. Ditto if you own a 600mm camera lens and stick on a 1.4x tele-extender (840mm fl). No, with a 1750mm fl you ought to look for large pixels to be efficient and contented in your photon gathering. Really tiny pixels enable you to use a Hyperstar and still capture nice detail in quite remote galaxies.

 

Similar reasoning applies to planetary video capture. The aim there is typically a focal ratio of, say 5x the pixel pitch in microns to sample the diffraction (not seeing) FWHM adequately. The Sony A7s would require a focal ratio of f40, while the 50 MP camera (4.1 micron pitch) would require a focal ratio of around f20. f40 is very dim compared to f20, hence the A7s had better be a lot more sensitive, otherwise your achievable frame rates drop into mediocrity.

 

Yes their is always a compromise.  I also have a 700mm apo that would like smaller pixels than the 1750mm  scope. A full size sensor at 25mp should be around 6+ microns  ( the 6D or D750), good for the 1750mm fl, but the 700mm would need smaller pixel size, maybe a dx format or D810. So there is not perfection.  I am more interested in lowest noise. Nikon may be a little better on that front. However the 6D Canon has proven Ha mods for a couple hundred dollars. Maybe a 6Dll in the next year. I have 8 months to research and decide. - Dan -    


Edited by drd715, 12 April 2015 - 08:05 PM.


#64 whwang

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 10:52 PM

Based on your description, I don't think you can go wrong with D810A.  The only problem is price.

 

Cheers,

Wei-Hao



#65 drd715

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 08:45 AM

Yes the problem is the price. It would be the best current choice.  I may have to compromise to a D750 or 6D. Still working out the best value.  



#66 whwang

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 01:40 PM

Or a used D810?  For a dedicated astro-camera, I totally don't mind a used body.  Last December, I picked up a used D800 on ebay which was dirt cheap.  Never regret this decision.



#67 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 03:07 PM

The Canon 6D is a good choice if you need full frame. It is a decent full frame camera at a very reasonable price.

 

If you don’t have a lot of focal length then going with a smaller sensor will still give you high resolution with a narrow field of view. Personally I like the Olympus E-PL6 for $300 with a lens brand new. That is a great m4/3s camera with reasonably good noise characteristics for an obscenely low price. They can be modified for about $200 as well.

 

http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=E-PL6



#68 Richard Whalen

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 06:05 PM

I would like to see more camera's come out with larger pixels in the 6-8um range. As it is the only two I can find is the 6d and A7s, neither which fits my budget or scope (1500mm). While close, I really want 7.2um pixels. And I really don't want to spend over a grand with mods. I'm hoping Canon comes out for a replacement for the 6d so maybe I can pick one up already modded used.



#69 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 01:11 PM

Only two more months of waiting till this camera finally comes out. Nothing like announcing a camera 1/3 of a year before you actually produce it.



#70 calypsob

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 10:01 AM

I agree with Jon's point regarding pixel size.  4.1 um pixels are indeed very sweet in terms of angular scale.

 

What I would worry is whether there is optics that can deliver sufficiently good image quality across the 24mm*35mm full frame.  Using my own scopes/lenses as examples, I have TAK E180ED, which is incredibly sharp in the middle of the frame under D800 (4.8 um pixels).  However, it is somewhat less sharper in the corners because of the combination of off-axis aberration and very small collimation errors.  I also have several very well regarded camera lenses.  One example is Nikon AIS ED 85/1.8G, which is considered as very sharp.  It is indeed very sharp in the center of the frame under D800, and this confirms it superior optical design.  However, the shape of stars in the four corners are not distorted in a symmetric way, even stopped down to F4. This indicates that some of its lenses are not perfectly collimated in the manufacturing process.  Another example is the highly praised Sigma 50/1.4 Art.  While my copy works perfectly, a friend of mine has a copy that shows the same problem as my 85/1.8G on D810.  The only optics in my hand that consistently delivers excellent image quality is TAK TOA150 after coupled with the 67-format field flattener, and we all know how expansive this is.

 

After using D800 on astrophoto for two years, I am both amazed and annoyed by its incredible resolution.  It is very hard to find a perfect optics for D800.  Now, the rumored Canon camera has 20% smaller pixels.  I highly doubt that we will find a long list of optics that can satisfy this camera, and the few ones on the list may be very expansive.  For now, I am perfectly happy to stay at D800's resolution and not go to 50MP.

 

Why not try out some high quality medium format and large format lenses?



#71 pedxing

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 11:59 AM

Why not try out some high quality medium format and large format lenses?


How do you mount them to a DSLR?


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