Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

What is it about EAA that is so controversial?

  • Please log in to reply
182 replies to this topic

#26 JMW

JMW

    Soyuz

  • -----
  • Posts: 3640
  • Joined: 11 Feb 2007
  • Loc: Nevada

Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:42 PM

Motorolla 6800, 6809, 68000 series family was big endian, Intel processors were little endian.



#27 ensign

ensign

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1201
  • Joined: 16 Dec 2008
  • Loc: South Georgian Bay

Posted 24 February 2015 - 01:06 PM

 

I think the debates are somewhat like Gulliver’s Travels tensions in Lilliput and Blefuscu: whereas royal edict in Lilliput requires cracking open one's soft-boiled egg at the small end (the little-endians), where inhabitants of the rival kingdom of Blefuscu crack theirs at the big end (giving them the moniker Big-endians).

 

The rationalization was that although everyone agrees that the difference between cracking eggs with the little- or the big-end first is trivial, we insist that everyone must do it in the same way, to avoid anarchy. Since the difference is trivial we may choose either way, but a decision must be made.

 

The big endian versus little endian debate was started by Intel.  Egged on by Microsoft no doubt.

 

Actually, the tech industry just picked up the debate.  Swift was the one that started it. :grin:



#28 Dwight J

Dwight J

    Gemini

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 3356
  • Joined: 14 May 2009
  • Loc: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada

Posted 24 February 2015 - 02:02 PM

I don't think EAA is by itself controversial, only some of those that do it. Back when it first started, it may have been at star parties. I can remember seeing light glow from those doing it as I was doing visual. But since then I think most have started using red screens on their monitors, computer tents etc. I think now what we have is those that think their definition of EAA is the only one that's valid, every thing else is imaging. Many that started off 18 years ago only used video monitor or an old TV in many cases and look at what is being done today as something that is totally different. And in a way they are right, it is different. But it is still EAA.

 

I think that EAA is advancing at a very fast rate with the new "hybrid"  camera's and associated software that allows NRT or imagers to do NRT. That they in many cases can take better images than the video cams designed for NRT should not surprise anyone, however it seems that there are those that resent it while at the same time I see them on NSN pushing their video cams to the max refresh rates trying to get the best image possible. They somehow view it as a competition to get the best image but then turn around and say they are not really imaging but doing NRT.

 

I don't know where the line should be drawn or if there should be one. Then you get the arguments about processing, another can of worms. I have no problem with those that post images that were processed on the fly using a single program that anyone can replicate. And I enjoy looking at images that have hours of post processing which I think if labeled as such is fine, though maybe should be posted elsewhere, or maybe not? I think if we define this aspect of our hobby to narrow, we will only hurt ourselves. Manufacturers will not be pushed to consider new technology, larger chips with higher resolution etc. Software will not be developed to take advantage of these new camera's. I think we may be coming into the golden age of video astronomy, with aging eye's for us baby boomers and the tech aspect for those younger. I think we all need to keep an open mind and applaud those pushing the limits of what is considered NRTV and just sit back and see where it takes us.

 

Richard

Your post illustrates very well where issues arise.  When I broadcast on NSN I prefer to see more objects than pretty them up.  Log in to watch my broadcasts as proof.  This arises from being primarily an observer, not an imager.  If you want to obtain the best image, get an Apogee or Finger Lakes camera with a 24"  RC.  If you want post processing, spend hours on it to your hearts content.  Posting those here, IMHO, does not display what your equipment can do, just what you can do by processing.  "I just did a few tweaks in Photoshop ,etc"  Such results can be misleading as to what the equipment is capable of doing. ( and just how much "tweaking" was done).  I am not sure I have actually seen a raw Sony A7S image yet.  This is an equipment forum.  In terms of new cameras, if one comes along that does things better and is not crazy expensive, I'll buy it.  


  • will w, buddyjesus, Juan Rayo and 1 other like this

#29 Vondragonnoggin

Vondragonnoggin

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8619
  • Joined: 21 Feb 2010
  • Loc: Southern CA, USA

Posted 24 February 2015 - 02:24 PM

There used to be a huge push to use NSN for proof of doing NRT, but I always thought that NSN is a separate entity from CN and has nothing to do with each other and demands shouldn't be put on users to broadcast to be part of the forum here.

 

A lot of the bickering is coming from doubting Thomas' who question if more processing then let on is being done. If the forum goal is clear, it's up to the users to be honest about it, not really up to everyone else to police. Just the mods. No need to demand a broadcast either. Too many worrying about everyone else in my opinion.

 

So, again, maybe a little exercise in patience around here as we are constantly seeing new tech around here and things change quickly. I think having sub forums that are vendor specific is a terrible idea and leads to more divisive behavior.

 

My 2 cents.


  • Relativist, Bob S., buddyjesus and 3 others like this

#30 ccs_hello

ccs_hello

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 10332
  • Joined: 03 Jul 2004

Posted 24 February 2015 - 05:52 PM

A PC running a piece of software is an equipment.

AstroLive Box  http://astroprecisio...s/astrolive-box is an equipment.

A vendor's "blackbox" that does the scaling and video enhancer functions is an equipment.

A video camera with a built-in DSP performing processing functions is an equipment.

 

Again, no one should dictate someone else's implementations as "do not fit".

 

It is fine that an individual felt uncomfortable and unwilling to read a post or accept a direction.

However it is just a specific person's opinion, not a fact.

No need to be so vocal. IMHO

 

Clear Skies!

 

ccs_hello


  • Relativist and chasing photons like this

#31 xrayvizhen

xrayvizhen

    Messenger

  • -----
  • Posts: 459
  • Joined: 19 May 2007
  • Loc: Randolph, NJ

Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:41 AM

Wonderful thread...and thank you Dwight J for starting it. As a newbie, I've been trying to learn the ins & outs of EAA but frankly have been very turned off by a group of posters whose technical discussions go far beyond what I can comprehend. And this is from a guy who spends his professional life developing CCTV systems for a living. I've designed, sold and supervised video surveillance installations at some of the most sensitive security locations in the nation, including banks, casinos and airports. I work with cameras where you wouldn't believe what they are capable of, going far, far beyond what is required for astronomy and yet even I can't figure out what the heck some people are even talking about. I'm thinking I should just stick with visual astronomy, but I really do want to do something to overcome the ever increasing light pollution in my area.

 

To me, EAA means live video and by "live" I'll go with what the broadcast industry goes by, meaning a 7 second delay. Anything more enters the realm of "imaging" and just my opinion, once someone breaths the word "processing", it should then be discussed in a different forum.

 

Maybe there should be a sub-sub forum " EALVA"  (Electronically Assisted Live Video Astronomy), or just simply, as the March 2016 of S&T calls it, "Video Observing".


Edited by xrayvizhen, 19 February 2016 - 10:40 AM.

  • Greyhaven, will w, buddyjesus and 6 others like this

#32 CA Curtis 17

CA Curtis 17

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 815
  • Joined: 13 Feb 2012
  • Loc: California

Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:33 AM

My point of view, regardless of whether we are talking this forum or NSN, if what the person is posting or broadcasting doesn't fit into you definition of EAA stop reading the thread or turn their broadcast off.   I see no need to force my definition of things onto anyone else.  As many have already said, it is about enjoying the hobby and not about making everyone else conform to our own vision of it.

 

 

Jeff - look for me at GSSP this year, I always set up in the Oort Cloud furthest away from everyone inside a tan EasyUp to avoid bothering anyone else.  I drive a tan Honda Odyssey.

 

Lorence - you seem to post this same comment over and over on this internet forum on the world wide web.  What makes you think the people here are not hands-on observers?

 

Regards,

Curtis


  • Greyhaven, JonNPR, Censustaker and 2 others like this

#33 MartinMeredith

MartinMeredith

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 671
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2015

Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:46 AM

Most of the controversy would disappear if we simply refrained from telling other people what EAA is or is not. Surely everyone posting here genuinely believes they are doing EAA of one form or another, and that should be enough.

 

Martin


  • Greyhaven, Bob S., JonNPR and 5 others like this

#34 Doug Culbertson

Doug Culbertson

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 7670
  • Joined: 06 Jan 2005
  • Loc: N. Florida

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:03 AM

I've not been a frequent visitor to this sub-forum until my recent conversion to NV astronomy, but it seems to me that the "controversial" threads are always those regarding the various astro-video cameras and/or the software used in conjunction with the cameras. Some of it appears to come down to the fans of these various cameras disagreeing with one another, from what I can tell. The same thing happens in the eyepieces forum from time to time, but there seems to be much more of it in EAA.

 

I do know that it does not seem to happen on the threads regarding NV equipment, where I have found the posters to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful.

 

Anyway, just an observation from a long timer in astronomy, but a neophyte to EAA.


Edited by Doug Culbertson, 19 February 2016 - 11:04 AM.

  • Bob S. and charotarguy like this

#35 t_image

t_image

    Gemini

  • -----
  • Posts: 3334
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2015

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:07 AM

Wonderful thread...and thank you Dwight J for starting it. As a newbie, I've been trying to learn the ins & outs of EAA but frankly have been very turned off by a group of posters whose technical discussions go far beyond what I can comprehend. And this is from a guy who spends his professional life developing CCTV systems for a living. I've designed, sold and supervised video surveillance installations at some of the most sensitive security locations in the nation, including banks, casinos and airports. I work with cameras where you wouldn't believe what they are capable of, going far, far beyond what is required for astronomy and yet even I can't figure out what the heck some people are even talking about. I'm thinking I should just stick with visual astronomy, but I really do want to do something to overcome the ever increasing light pollution in my area.

 

To me, EAA means live video and by "live" I'll go with what the broadcast industry goes by, meaning a 7 second delay. Anything more enters the realm of "imaging" and just my opinion, once someone breaths the word "processing", it should then be discussed in a different forum.

 

Maybe there should be a sub-sub forum " EALVA"  (Electronically Assisted Live Video Astronomy), or just simply, as the March 2016 of S&T calls it, "Video Observing".

Hey XRV,

Am happy you are here!

My first thought with your first post on CN was: "I can't wait till this guy can start teaching us some stuff -as I imagine you have first hand knowledge of some imaging devices/equipment that we have no concept of....

Hope you find something you personally like and start having fun seeing objects real time!

 

The dilemma arises in that the EAA community is very diversified with equipment (used in different ways) and philosophical notions of what does and does not qualify as EAA.

Lots of fans of their equipment with both time and money invested ---- sometimes get too enthusiastic about their brand and get too dogmatic about which is "the best".....

While everyone should be free to campaign for their particular objects of their fandom,

it does become rather divisive when that fandom becomes a dogmatic fascist mindset that "My opinion should dictate who is allowed to post in this section......"

 

While I cringe every time the use of the word "video" is distorted to mean something other than the quick refresh of frames in a rotoscoped fashion to render a subject that would convey realistic motion if motion were present,

I get that others think that as long as you are using a 'video' camera to do something that counts as "video"....

Whatever. Lets all first at least not let the rhetoric or sophistry of our forum keep us from having fun with what we are doing!

 

When all is said and done: we need to realize we cannot expect this to be a homogeneous community where all think alike!

 

I do know that it does not seem to happen on the threads regarding NV equipment, where I have found the posters to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful.

And Yes Doug I see this too. Of course since Image Intensifiers make every observation a real-time experience,

there is no need to debate the philosophical differences of what counts as EAA

--since within the larger EAA group, different equipment lends to the different arguments of what EAA is about.

Of course if each brand had their own threads for discussion or advice, it might be more cordial ---but we would also lose the large collection of brilliant enthusiast who are willing to weigh in with expertise despite the differing ideas!


Edited by t_image, 19 February 2016 - 11:18 AM.


#36 Astrojedi

Astrojedi

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
  • Joined: 27 May 2015
  • Loc: SoCal

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:19 AM

Besides a few negative posts recently most threads have been very interesting and constructive. I am always learning something from the very diverse perspectives and approaches to electronically assisted observing (EAO? :) )

 

I have not seen this kind of richness of opinions and experimentation on any other forums which tend to take  more of a straightjacket approach. 

 

I think EAA ends up being controversial exactly because it is hard to define but I think that is exactly it's identity as well. Two sides of the same coin.

 

There also seems to be a (in my view a healthy) debate between people who prefer a certain approach to observing and others who are constantly experimenting and exploring new approaches. Transitions in technology and techniques always take time and cause friction in the short term as people are set in their ways and adoption always take time. Having built technology businesses I know this first hand.

 


Edited by Astrojedi, 19 February 2016 - 11:35 AM.

  • CharlesC, JonNPR, xiando and 2 others like this

#37 choran

choran

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Joined: 28 Dec 2012

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:24 AM

From a total outsider (and strictly visual observer) who stops by from time to time to try to get a handle on whether I should try EAA (or whatever you are calling it at the moment) I offer this humble observation:  All of the definitions in the world won't help quell the animosity that often seems to pop up here.  The reason is that, like with most endeavors that start off as enjoyable pastimes, many insist on seeing this whole thing as a competition.  "My equipment is better than yours.  Look how good my images are."   And since it is viewed by many as a competition, some feel there must be rules for the competition.  Then there are endless arguments about the rules.  Then, accusations of "cheating" invariably arise,  pointing to nitpicky definitions that are the subject of endless argument, and the whole thing starts again. All very silly and a huge turnoff to those thinking about joining in.  If you want peace, stop treating your pastime as a sport.  Do whatever you do, however you want, and report your results, and stop worrying about how others do it, and about how many stacks can dance on the head of a pin.  


  • ccs_hello, Bob S., will w and 4 others like this

#38 jturie

jturie

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 175
  • Joined: 19 Nov 2012
  • Loc: Valley Forge, PA

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:27 AM

While I have seen some threads get a little testy in this forum, I think a lot of it might be history between a couple of the posters.  To me, "nasty" implies some newbie (like me) posting something and getting snide or mocking replies.  I really haven't seen that here, and personally I have been treated well by the veterans.  It's all I can ask for, especially because I acknowledge my newbness and don't try to fake being knowledgeable.  Like any technical topic on the internet, there are those who can't resist telling everyone how smart/experienced/talented they are and throw out a ton of technical terms and opinions on equipment.  Throw in the hardware competition (expensive Mallincams, cheap LN-300s, and the mavericks in the middle like AVS) and people's equipment preferences/loyalties, and you get the occasional conflict.  Fact is, the equipment and the software is changing rapidly, and it seems like bigger outfits are recognizing the potential market, which is going to hurt the mom-and-pop shops who have supported the hobby because they love it.  All of this combines to create the occasional friction.

 

I for one am interested to see how good EAA results can be....and as long as the person posting the pictures explains what they did to get those images, I really don't care.  As much as I'm blown away by the images produced by the DSLR and CCD crowd with $10K worth of equipment, my eyes glaze over when I read things like "total exposure time:  25 hours".  I have chosen to get into EAA (whatever the definition is...) because it represents a) a chance to see decent images of objects from light-polluted skies; b) the best chance (IMHO) to get today's youngsters excited about astronomy through outreach, and c) relative relief on the pocketbook compared to other forms of astro-imaging.

 

At the end of the day, we're all adults here and the disagreements tend to work themselves out.....usually.


  • Bob S., Dragon Man, jimsmith and 5 others like this

#39 charotarguy

charotarguy

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Joined: 10 Sep 2014

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:34 AM

Wife suspicious of above toys

:lol:  :lol:  :lol: , no disagreements there.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



#40 Astrojedi

Astrojedi

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
  • Joined: 27 May 2015
  • Loc: SoCal

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:43 AM

And here is the usual issues which typically lead to heated debates:

 

1. USB cameras are not EAA (Only video cameras are)

2. Stacking in SW is not EAA (but conveniently in video cameras it is)

3. Pretty pictures are not EAA (if you can get a better view in similar amount of time not sure why the complaining)

4. The regular MC plants or fanatics who just attack anyone not using a MC (and then pretend that accept other cameras)

5. People who want to impose some arbitrary and ludicrous criteria to define EAA (of course one that suits them and supports their approach)

 

Bottom line.... Stop telling others how they should do EAA and enjoy the diversity of approaches on this forum.


  • Greyhaven, buddyjesus, roelb and 3 others like this

#41 Spacefreak1974

Spacefreak1974

    Skylab

  • *****
  • Posts: 4450
  • Joined: 09 Aug 2015
  • Loc: Indianapolis, IN

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:51 AM

I think the Electronically Assisted Astronomy path is interesting. I like the ideas like the Mallincam Jr Pro or the Revolution Imager as they include all the parts necessary. I really think this would be great for Outreach as well as folks who have failing eyesight.. I've seen on numerous threads where a lifelong astronomer stopped observing because he/she couldn't see very well and a simple Revolution Imager or Mallincam product opened the hobby back up for them.

 

If people want to bash things that's up to them. The moderators are good enough and block people that cause a ruckus. :waytogo: Haters gonna hate. I haven't gotten into EAA as of yet, but given I want to stay simple i'll probably go that direction.

 

The whole imaging and astrophotography thing is cool and all, but the money outlay and what one person pays for what is deemed an inferior product and the envy of someone who buys the highest cost camera on the market and is snubby with the guy with the $100 camera and the AVX mount and the C90 needs to stop. Sure the photos taken with the expensive stuff are probably better, but to be honest I've looked at photos taken with $20K 14" Truss RC scopes vs. a C8 with a hyperstar and I cannot tell the difference. There's no room for snubbyness. 

 

The whole adapting security and webcams for astronomy is really cool. For some simply seeing color out of what they are seeing through the scope is amazing. Simple screen capture apps might do the trick for the amateur astronomy doing a observing journal with thumbnail images (like what I would like to do eventually). Showing my kids what something looks like on a monitor vs getting them to stand on a stool and through an eyepiece may be better, but then again I want them to see it both ways.

 

Astronomy is big enough for everyone. Its big enough for the 10 yr old kid with the $100 refractor  who knows the sky better than me and its big enough for the millionaire with an observatory built on his house with a RC scope. Its big enough for the binocular astronomers. 

 

I'm always asking opinions about equipment and I've had my fair share of threads get derailed by negativity, but i've also received great constructive feedback


  • will w, jimsmith, buddyjesus and 2 others like this

#42 t_image

t_image

    Gemini

  • -----
  • Posts: 3334
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2015

Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:52 AM

From a total outsider (and strictly visual observer) who stops by from time to time to try to get a handle on whether I should try EAA (or whatever you are calling it at the moment) I offer this humble observation:  All of the definitions in the world won't help quell the animosity that often seems to pop up here.  The reason is that, like with most endeavors that start off as enjoyable pastimes, many insist on seeing this whole thing as a competition.  "My equipment is better than yours.  Look how good my images are."   And since it is viewed by many as a competition, some feel there must be rules for the competition.  Then there are endless arguments about the rules.  Then, accusations of "cheating" invariably arise,  pointing to nitpicky definitions that are the subject of endless argument, and the whole thing starts again. All very silly and a huge turnoff to those thinking about joining in.  If you want peace, stop treating your pastime as a sport.  Do whatever you do, however you want, and report your results, and stop worrying about how others do it, and about how many stacks can dance on the head of a pin.  

Thanks for sharing....

The dilemma of logic that arises when wounded people make posts that state they are:

  • "turned off" (including some shaming rhetoric)
  • because of : (name what they don't like while using unflattering adjectives)......
  • and conclude that we should all:  (follow a stated rule according to the opinion of the poster)

is that such post itself adds to the controversy they are claiming to be upset about.....

Feel free to have your own opinion, but don't play the victim card and blame others for the same infractions that you are doing yourself.

Heal thyself physician. "Do whatever you do, however you want, and report your results, and stop worrying about how others do it,(or however people post on here about it).

And maybe tone down the shaming.......[yes I am a hypocrite for illustrative purposes!!!!]

consider to yourself,  is this post helpful? [as it violates all the things I just commented about]



#43 xrayvizhen

xrayvizhen

    Messenger

  • -----
  • Posts: 459
  • Joined: 19 May 2007
  • Loc: Randolph, NJ

Posted 19 February 2016 - 12:35 PM

And here is the usual issues which typically lead to heated debates:

 

1. USB cameras are not EAA (Only video cameras are)

2. Stacking in SW is not EAA (but conveniently in video cameras it is)

3. Pretty pictures are not EAA (if you can get a better view in similar amount of time not sure why the complaining)

4. The regular MC plants or fanatics who just attack anyone not using a MC (and then pretend that accept other cameras)

5. People who want to impose some arbitrary and ludicrous criteria to define EAA (of course one that suits them and supports their approach)

 

Bottom line.... Stop telling others how they should do EAA and enjoy the diversity of approaches on this forum.

 

First of all, I should say I don't exactly know how I stumbled on this thread and didn't realize it was a year old. I hope I didn't reopen up any old wounds.

 

There is nothing wrong with a diversity of approaches (although I, half in jest, suggested a sub-sub forum for VA) just as long as the approaches are clearly identified so that those of us still on the outside looking in and maybe trying to decide on which camera to buy, can get a clear understanding as to what each camera can produce when viewed "live" and what it took, it terms of time and effort, to produce the image being exhibited. To use a television analogy, I don't want to buy a camera, plug it in and expect to see high-def and instead what I'm seeing is fuzzy old B&W from the 1950's.



#44 choran

choran

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Joined: 28 Dec 2012

Posted 19 February 2016 - 01:53 PM

 

From a total outsider (and strictly visual observer) who stops by from time to time to try to get a handle on whether I should try EAA (or whatever you are calling it at the moment) I offer this humble observation:  All of the definitions in the world won't help quell the animosity that often seems to pop up here.  The reason is that, like with most endeavors that start off as enjoyable pastimes, many insist on seeing this whole thing as a competition.  "My equipment is better than yours.  Look how good my images are."   And since it is viewed by many as a competition, some feel there must be rules for the competition.  Then there are endless arguments about the rules.  Then, accusations of "cheating" invariably arise,  pointing to nitpicky definitions that are the subject of endless argument, and the whole thing starts again. All very silly and a huge turnoff to those thinking about joining in.  If you want peace, stop treating your pastime as a sport.  Do whatever you do, however you want, and report your results, and stop worrying about how others do it, and about how many stacks can dance on the head of a pin.  

Thanks for sharing....

The dilemma of logic that arises when wounded people make posts that state they are:

  • "turned off" (including some shaming rhetoric)
  • because of : (name what they don't like while using unflattering adjectives)......
  • and conclude that we should all:  (follow a stated rule according to the opinion of the poster)

is that such post itself adds to the controversy they are claiming to be upset about.....

Feel free to have your own opinion, but don't play the victim card and blame others for the same infractions that you are doing yourself.

Heal thyself physician. "Do whatever you do, however you want, and report your results, and stop worrying about how others do it,(or however people post on here about it).

And maybe tone down the shaming.......[yes I am a hypocrite for illustrative purposes!!!!]

consider to yourself,  is this post helpful? [as it violates all the things I just commented about]

 

 You are overdoing your colors.  As such, this belongs in the imaging forum.   :)


  • roelb, Censustaker, Spaced-out and 1 other like this

#45 Dwight J

Dwight J

    Gemini

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 3356
  • Joined: 14 May 2009
  • Loc: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada

Posted 19 February 2016 - 02:12 PM

Quite a bit has changed in the year since I started this thread, mostly in terms of new products but also in the inclusiveness of different styles of EAA.  I will use Charles as an example:  he has to stack a multitude of short exposures to see anything from his extremely light polluted location.  He would likely not get anything worth looking at if he used long (1 to three minute) single or stacked integrations.  Sharpcap has been a boon to many, stacking short exposures and, the best part, aligning them so a premium mount isn't required nor extra expense and fussing with autoguiding.  Astrotoaster does essentially the same.  The Revolution camera package as well as the Mallincam intro package has done wonders to add interested people to EAA as now, without breaking the bank, you get everything you need to get going.  The first views guys are having I bet leaves their jaw agape when they see spiral arms in galaxies and colourful nebula that was impossible to see otherwise.  My first view was one of M 27 on a 32" CRT using a C14 at our Astro club.  I was spellbound, so much so that I ordered a Mallincam the next day.

    In terms of how we all get along, dare I say things seem to be jelling into a group who has a common goal and threads like object of the month make things fun here.  It is an opportunity to stretch your equipment and skills and compare results.  I hope it doesn't devolve into a competition.  

     I wonder what the next year will bring.  I bet more and more observers will cross over to EAA as with light pollution just getting ridiculous you can't see anything visually.  Even a modest telescope coupled with any of the current cameras and software had become a powerful observing system.  Some will even have to swallow their pride as doing so as EAA just works.  Better to see objects on a screen than not at all, and with your own equipment and skills ( just to counter the " I can just go and google pictures").  Most important for me is that my observing buddy who has severe glaucoma can now see objects again.  


Edited by Dwight J, 19 February 2016 - 02:22 PM.

  • Bob S., will w, jimsmith and 12 others like this

#46 Relativist

Relativist

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8151
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2003
  • Loc: OC, CA, USA

Posted 19 February 2016 - 07:41 PM

Wow... at first I complained about this zombie thread (I thought why bring up old wounds), now I'm getting all sorts of likes on my posts herein. Maybe it's good after all!

 

Yes a LOT has changed in the last year. Thanks to new cameras and interest it seems we have new active people here, which is very welcomed, as in the former forum 'VEAA' sometimes people would feel negative and not stick around. Since last year for a time I was able to focus more on other sub forums in CN like I used to, but felt the need to return because of some further movement in the forum. Luckily things went in a positive, more inclusive, direction overall. I'm excited about this year because there are cameras and software available that have opened up this part of the hobby to new possibilities and exploring them is going to be a blast IMO.



#47 39.1N84.5W

39.1N84.5W

    He asked for it

  • *****
  • Posts: 4007
  • Joined: 24 Oct 2006
  • Loc: cincinnati

Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:21 PM

If you want peace, stop treating your pastime as a sport. Do whatever you do, however you want, and report your results, and stop worrying about how others do it, and about how many stacks can dance on the head of a pin.


Nail on the head.
  • Dwight J, roelb and Spaced-out like this

#48 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24998
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:36 AM

I have posted Night Vision observations several times in the Deep Space Observing forum.

 

No one has said I should not post there (and I think it is important to share our observations in that forum) but I have had people say "Oh, he is using image intensifier and that is why he sees this stuff" though again, no one has said I should not post there.

 

Think of it this way... If I see a difficult globular as being highly resolve in a C14 and the guy using a 4" refractor does not see it as highly resolved, would he be justified in saying "That post should be in the Cats and Casses forum!"     Of course he/she would not be justified in saying something like that.

 

I am describing what I see and not showing a picture.  If I had a picture to use, I would post it in the imaging forum (and I would encourge EAA members to do the same thing.  What is conceptually different about having a picture made off of a Phosphor screen vs a picture made off of a CCD?  Both are pictures, and the equipment used is part of the interest.

 

I actually encourage that we post our observations there because that forum is all about what you could see or the image you made.  People doing captures should of course use an imaging forum because they have a picture to show.

 

I think posting the incredible NV galaxy captures on the EAA forum is hiding them from the bigger audience.

 

And why would those pictures in any way be less appropriate than a long exposure picture made with high tech CCD imager?

 

 

A bit part of the Deep Space Observing forum (to me anyway) is to share the observer's impressions about what they were able to see, and the conditions and equipment used are almost always a component of that post.

Why should it be different if I am using a PVS-7?    

 

I can see things they can't see maybe, but someone using a 30" scope from a black sky is going to see things most of them can't see either.   Should there be a seperate forum for people using giant apertures under black skies?  Of course not.

And image is an image, and a visual observation is a visual observation.    The equipment used is just part of the story and it allows individuals to share what kind of equipment is useful for getting the best view of various kinds of targets.   

 

We put ourselves in our own boxes.

 

I will continue to share my own observations on the DSO forum because that is the best place to share with the larger community what I can see.

 

If people don't like it, they don't have to read it but no one should think that my use of a NV device should in any way disqualify me for posting there, and you should all feel the same way.   If you want to be in the box, be in the box, but a lot of people might be just as interested as what you can see from your front yard using a PVS-7 (or whatever) as they would be interested in hearing what a guy with a 30" dob viewing form the high desert would see.  A visual observation, or an image capture belongs as much in those forums as this one, and maybe more.

 

OMG, some of the things we can see or capture!  We absolutely should be reporting or showing our results in the appropriate forums outside of EAA.   

 

The day I am told that I can't share my observations on the forums where you go to share observations is the day I leave CN.  The equipment I use is what I use, and the story of what I can see is exactly as relevant as the story that the person using the 80mm refractor or the 30" dob tells.


  • Bob S., will w, bandhunter and 1 other like this

#49 Raginar

Raginar

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 9411
  • Joined: 19 Oct 2010
  • Loc: Pensacola, FL

Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:39 AM

People enjoy telling others what they can do with their gear. Just don't come in the EAA forum and you'll be infinitely happier 😍

#50 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 24998
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:45 AM

Kind of a pet peeve of mine in a way..   Forum members here seem to believe that they can only post on the EAA forum.  

That is pure bunk.   No where in the terms of service does it say you can't post your observations or the images you made anywhere but EAA forum.

 

I think JDBastro's stunning galaxy images should have been posted in the DSO Imaging forum for everyone to see.    

 

I think people reporting their visual observations should be posted in the DSO forum just like anyone else does.

 

Let's say that some guy reads a post where someone sees the Horse Head nebula in a 20" f/3.5 dob and they think to themselves "I wish I had the time to drive to dark skies.. If I did, I would buy a 20 Dob!"

 

Then, the next day, the guy reads on the same forum that someone else saw the Horse Head from their light polluted location in a city using a 12" dob with a NV device (which costs less than a 20" f/3.5 dob by the way)?    

Don't they benefit just as much by hearing that story too?   


Edited by Eddgie, 20 February 2016 - 10:50 AM.



CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics