391 replies to this topic

[EJN]

Otto

 

The entropy objection to evolution is based on a fundamental misunderstanding.  Entropy always increases in a closed system.  Neither a genome, nor a life-form, nor the earth are closed systems.  Entropy can certainly decrease in an open system, as long as it is offset by increases outside that system.

 

As evolution increases order in a genome and a lifeform, it increases disorder outside the lifeform - in the rest of the earth. For example, we eat things, build and repair our bodies (decrease entropy inside us) and then excrete waste products (increase entropy outside us). The net effect is an increase in disorder, as required by thermodynamics.

 

As for the earth, it is constantly delivered free energy in the form of sunlight, allowing order to be increased.  (This is not really the place for a detailed discussion of the relationship between free energy and entropy, but that is the guts of it).

 

The Nobel-Prize winning molecular biologist Jacques Monod said that the function of the

molecular machinery in living organisms is to act as Maxwell's demons, countering the second law of

thermodynamics by decreasing local entropy, at the expense of increasing it in the surroundings.

Edited by EJN, 27 December 2018 - 01:13 AM.

[jrbarnett]

I get stuck on getting something from nothing... How can there be nothing?

I like to think there's life on other planets, but I don't know.

Of course adding a divine creator in the mix does NOTHING to resolve the something from nothing problem..  A creator, after all is something.  Where did he/she/it come from?  It's exactly the same problem and no amount of mumbo-jumbo attributed to the divinity makes its existence anything other than a something from nothing creature.

 

Put another way, if there's one entity that follows special rules, unlike all the other entities it is alleged to have purposefully created, there's no logical reason that those rules actually aren't "special" and in fact apply to all entities, just as there are no special atoms that defy the physical laws that all of the other atoms follow.

 

Life is, and always has been, an eternal "feature" of an infinite, cyclical universe, just as has other forms of matter, energy, etc.  No magical little man behind the curtain needed to keep this Oz going.    My gut tells me that Plato (who was shamelessly "ripped off" by later Judeo-Christian "thinkers") was closer to sorting out the nature of life and origin question than any preacher, Pope, mystic or martyr.

 

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett, 27 December 2018 - 10:26 AM.

[llanitedave]

The Nobel-Prize winning molecular biologist Jacques Monod said that the function of the

molecular machinery in living organisms is to act as Maxwell's demons, countering the second law of

thermodynamics by decreasing local entropy, at the expense of increasing it in the surroundings.

A problem that people who reject evolution suffer from, is that they think this thermodynamic situation is somehow different between life and evolution.  They aren't, they are the exact same thing.  Biological evolution is an inevitable side effect of biological life.  They are inseparable.

[CygnuS]

 

 

Some people are very attached to a particular point of view, and want to promote it, even though they don't understand it.  

 

 

 

But is there anything that we truly understand? Humans just want something concrete to hold in a world where nothing seems to be solid because things constantly change. There's an old country song that says "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." Standing for nothing can drive a person insane. 

[ColoHank]

But is there anything that we truly understand? Humans just want something concrete to hold in a world where nothing seems to be solid because things constantly change. There's an old country song that says "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." Standing for nothing can drive a person insane. 

Is there such a thing as an old country song? 

[llanitedave]

But is there anything that we truly understand? Humans just want something concrete to hold in a world where nothing seems to be solid because things constantly change. There's an old country song that says "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." Standing for nothing can drive a person insane. 

Which is why science exists.  It's the best tool we have to not "fall for anything."

 

There's a lot of people out there claiming to be standing for something who completely reject science, because it doesn't back up the thing they've fallen for.

[Mister T]

Is there such a thing as an old country song? 

Listen to a country music station for a day and they will ALL be old..
    

[ColoHank]

Listen to a country music station for a day and they will ALL be old..
    

I'm too old for that.

[Otto Piechowski]

Well let’s see, in a country music song there is some guy getting drunk at a bar, telling the bartender about his girl that left him for someone else. And then there some other tragedy like the crop that are coming in or an illness or the kids in jail. Have I missed anything with the lyrics of 95% of all country music songs?

[Otto Piechowski]

But, everything is all right because his flea covered dog is still loyal to him and his pick upup with 230,000 miles is still running sort of.

[llanitedave]

Most of those old country songs are all about me.  Which is why they make me cringe!

 

Like any other genre, though, there's a small percentage of good stuff that you have to wade through a lot of awful junk to hear.

[CygnuS]

 

 

Life is, and always has been, an eternal "feature" of an infinite, cyclical universe, just as has other forms of matter, energy, etc.  

Be careful talking about eternally existing things or you might end up on the side of theists. 

[CygnuS]

Well let’s see, in a country music song there is some guy getting drunk at a bar, telling the bartender about his girl that left him for someone else. And then there some other tragedy like the crop that are coming in or an illness or the kids in jail. Have I missed anything with the lyrics of 95% of all country music songs?

Ralph Waldo Emerson said "To be simple is to be great." Which means that bluegrass music is about as great as music gets. 

Edited by CygnuS, 30 December 2018 - 10:39 PM.

[Otto Piechowski]

I live in Kentucky.  Have for about thirty years.  Not only is bluegrass music played here, the particular area in which I live is called The Bluegrass.

 

Having said that, I often am confused by the musical lexicon.  I know there is Country music, Folk music, Bluegrass music, and Gospel music.  I always kind of thought Country and Bluegrass were different, but if you asked me how they are different, I couldn't clearly tell you why except that when I think of bluegrass music, I think of the South/Southeast Appalachian areas, and when I think of country, I think of the South and West.

 

This is way off topic; way of the OP; however, if someone feels it is appropriate, I would appreciate being told what the differences are between these genres.

 

Otto

[ColoHank]

I too grew up in the Bluegrass, albeit the northern reaches.  It conforms, more or less, to the areal extent of the Cincinnati Arch, a structural dome whose exposed rock formations and the soils they engender support a distinctive plant community.  I understand it's a good place to raise horses which have strong bones and are fleet of foot. 

 

In my judgment, Bluegrass music has a certain historical authenticity derived from its Appalachian (Celtic) and African roots.  Country music is a more recent marketing phenomenon (almost anyone with a phony southern twang who can remember two or three chords on a "git-tar" can claim to be a country musician).  I don't believe Bluegrass music actually evolved in the Bluegrass region, but farther east and south

 

Are you familiar with the McClain Family Band from Berea, Otto?  How about John Jacob Niles (he's the guy who wrote I Wonder As I Wander)?  I heard Niles perform at a Bluegrass Festival many years ago at Devou Park in Covington, KY.  Haunting, and no mention of marital infidelity, lost dogs, alcohol-induced fogs, tattoos, or pickup trucks.

[llanitedave]

Be careful talking about eternally existing things or you might end up on the side of theists. 

Or at least in another thread...

[llanitedave]

I live in Kentucky.  Have for about thirty years.  Not only is bluegrass music played here, the particular area in which I live is called The Bluegrass.

 

Having said that, I often am confused by the musical lexicon.  I know there is Country music, Folk music, Bluegrass music, and Gospel music.  I always kind of thought Country and Bluegrass were different, but if you asked me how they are different, I couldn't clearly tell you why except that when I think of bluegrass music, I think of the South/Southeast Appalachian areas, and when I think of country, I think of the South and West.

 

This is way off topic; way of the OP; however, if someone feels it is appropriate, I would appreciate being told what the differences are between these genres.

 

Otto

Where I live, they play both kinds of music:  Country AND Western!

 

Bringing it back on topic, they have this same problem in every galaxy.

[astroneil]

Nota bene:

 

The reader should note that the scientist who first brought the "hand of god phenomenon" (the very phrase used by Dr. Richert in his December 12 2018 Nature Communications paper) in prebiotic chemical synthesis to the attention of the wider scientific community was Dr. Fazale Rana, staff biochemist with Reasons to Believe (www.reasons.org). Dr. Rana actually anticipated the admissions of both Dr. Tour and Dr. Richert in his 2011 book; Creating Life In the Lab.

 

More on this here: https://www.youtube....ZgO-sEw&t=1098s

Edited by astroneil, 31 December 2018 - 03:11 PM.

[astroneil]

Nota bene:

 

In light of these revelations, Dr.Tour calls for a complete moratorium on origin of life research in this talk given at Syracuse University in April 2018:

 

https://www.youtube....58Rm8Sk&t=4456s

[Otto Piechowski]

Thought I have heard of Covington, Berea, and the bluegrass festival, I have not listened to a lot of Bluegrass and so I am not familiar with those names, Hank. I’ve been to a couple music festivals here in Lexington. And I’ve also been to that outdoor art festival in Berea or near Berea. But other than that my experience is limited

[Otto Piechowski]

why did Dr. tour call for a moratorium on origin of life research, Neil? Without reading the links you gave us, my guess would be he has scientific reasons to believe origin of life research is a dead end, and a waste of resources which could be better used On other scientific projects. Is that the reason Neil?

[astroneil]

why did Dr. tour call for a moratorium on origin of life research, Neil? Without reading the links you gave us, my guess would be he has scientific reasons to believe origin of life research is a dead end, and a waste of resources which could be better used On other scientific projects. Is that the reason Neil?

I think you're not far from the truth there. The research should eliminate human intervention to a far greater degree than is currently being employed and a think-tank established as to ways to introduce non-invasive techniques/procedures.

Edited by astroneil, 31 December 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[llanitedave]

A think tank, eh?  With authority over scientific research?

 

Yeah, that'll end well.

[Otto Piechowski]

I believe I understand the phrase "non-invasive techniques/procedures".  However, in the context of investigating the origin of life on earth, I do not know what this means.  When I think of origin of life research, I am imagining laboratory experiments in mixing together chemicals and applying various forms of energy.  And having that imagine in my mind I can't understand what would necessitate "non-invasive techniques/procedures".

 

Therefore, I conclude I do not understand the context of research in which is is suggested that "non-invasive techniques/procedures" be used in investigations of the origin of life.  Could you help me understand that context, Neil, fitting the value "non-invasive techniques/procedures" into that explanation?

 

Otto

[ColoHank]

I think you're not far from the truth there. The research should eliminate human intervention to a far greater degree than is currently being employed and a think-tank established as to ways to introduce non-invasive techniques/procedures.

Since it's humans who conduct research, and nobody or nothing else, what do we call research which doesn't involve human intervention?