53 replies to this topic

[hokkaido53]

How do you pronounce "Betelgeuse"? When I was a teenager in the 1950s and 60s, it was always pronounced Bet-el-geeze. Then at some time, this "Beetle-juice" thing started, and that's how most people pronounce it today..

According to Wikipedia, "The star's name is derived from the Arabic يد الجوزاء Yad al-Jauzā', meaning "the hand of Orion". The Arabic letter for Y was misread as B by medieval translators, creating the initial B in Betelgeuse." So it should really be pronounced "Yettle-geeze"?

Roy

[blb]

Yep, pronounced Bet-el-geeze in the 60's and 70's, pre movie. After the movie Beetlejuice, every one pronounced it Beetle-juice. Now I do too.

[catboat]

الجوزاء  al-jauza  would be pronounced (classically) as al-jowza  (rhymes with ‘WOW-za').  Some dialects, notably Egyptian arabic, pronounce ‘j’ as a hard 'g’ (the English word ‘jump' would become ‘gump’ -- as in Forrest G.)

 

How one handles the short initial vowel of definite article [al-] in a possessive compound depends on the grammatical case of the first term [yad].  As a fixed compound/name, the form you would mostly likely encounter would be yadu’l-jauza  or  yadu’l-gauza  [Egyptian].    The short vowel  ‘a’ of the word yad  became a short ‘e’ when the word was taken up by speakers of other languages (probably by speakers of Turkish in this case, and then to European astronomers).

 

How people  *should* pronounce the name of the star is another matter.  Generally, we say whatever we think other people will think is correct.        

[Sarkikos]

However most people pronounce a name or word in a particular language in a specific region is probably correct.  Elite language academes can fight against this tendency, but it's often a lost cause.  The problem is compounded when a word comes from a foreign language.  It's even worse when the source was garbled to begin with, as is often the case with names in astronomy.  A name going from Babylonian to Greek to Arabic to Latin to French to English is certain to sound different from the original source.

 

Probably best to pronounce words in common usage the way they are commonly pronounced.  For instance, you would be more "correct" if you pronounce the Greek letter pi like "pee" instead of like "pie," and I've heard some folks say it that way.  But then they might sound pretentious or silly or at any rate be misunderstood.  Not good.  The prime purpose of language is to convey meaning and be understood.  Or at least it should be.

 

Mike

Edited by Sarkikos, 12 April 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Sarkikos]

I pronounce Betelgeuse like "Beetle Juice."

 

Mike

[Starman1]

How do you pronounce "Betelgeuse"? When I was a teenager in the 1950s and 60s, it was always pronounced Bet-el-geeze. Then at some time, this "Beetle-juice" thing started, and that's how most people pronounce it today..

According to Wikipedia, "The star's name is derived from the Arabic يد الجوزاء Yad al-Jauzā', meaning "the hand of Orion". The Arabic letter for Y was misread as B by medieval translators, creating the initial B in Betelgeuse." So it should really be pronounced "Yettle-geeze"?

Roy

Bet'-uhl-jooz.

Although I have also heard

Bate'-uhl-jooz.

[chrysalis]

I have always been a "Bate'-uhl-jooz"-er

[Ptarmigan]

Yep, pronounced Bet-el-geeze in the 60's and 70's, pre movie. After the movie Beetlejuice, every one pronounced it Beetle-juice. Now I do too.

 

That is how I pronounce Betelgeuse.

[havasman]

Like Michael Keaton did.

[nickatnight]

Just don't say it three times in a row!!!

[Kidastronomer]

Betle-juice. It's a mix of original and modern way to say it.

Edited by Kidastronomer, 12 April 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[Sarkikos]

If we all pronounced words and names they way they were "originally" pronounced - assuming that's how they should be pronounced - few people would understand us.  We would say "Caesar" like "kisar."  "Detroit" would be pronounced like "Duh trwah."  And "Betelgeuse" would be something like "Yaduljowza."  Sounds like a lost cause to me.

 

Mike ... or should that be Mīkhāʼēl?

 

Mike

Edited by Sarkikos, 12 April 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[David Knisely]

I pronounced it Alpha Orionis

[BrooksObs]

 

How do you pronounce "Betelgeuse"? When I was a teenager in the 1950s and 60s, it was always pronounced Bet-el-geeze. Then at some time, this "Beetle-juice" thing started, and that's how most people pronounce it today..

According to Wikipedia, "The star's name is derived from the Arabic يد الجوزاء Yad al-Jauzā', meaning "the hand of Orion". The Arabic letter for Y was misread as B by medieval translators, creating the initial B in Betelgeuse." So it should really be pronounced "Yettle-geeze"?

Roy

Bet'-uhl-jooz.

Although I have also heard

Bate'-uhl-jooz.

 

 

I'm with Don. As long as I've been in the hobby everyone I've known referred to the star as "Bet'-uhl-jooz".

 

BrooksObs

[Feidb]

Beatle - juice.

 

I don't care how it's supposed to be pronounced.

 

Ophiuchus: Awful - yuckus.

 

Uranus: Your - anus (go ahead and laugh Bevis)

[Love Cowboy]

Interestingly, while I have always been one to insist and correct others regarding the proper pronunciation of Uranus, and am one of the very few people I know even in my astronomy club who pronounce Io correctly, I have always pronounced Betelgeuse as "Beetlejuice" and never cared.

[Doug Culbertson]

 

How do you pronounce "Betelgeuse"? When I was a teenager in the 1950s and 60s, it was always pronounced Bet-el-geeze. Then at some time, this "Beetle-juice" thing started, and that's how most people pronounce it today..

According to Wikipedia, "The star's name is derived from the Arabic يد الجوزاء Yad al-Jauzā', meaning "the hand of Orion". The Arabic letter for Y was misread as B by medieval translators, creating the initial B in Betelgeuse." So it should really be pronounced "Yettle-geeze"?

Roy

Bet'-uhl-jooz.

Although I have also heard

Bate'-uhl-jooz.

 

 

The last one, Bate'-uhl-jooz, is how I learned to pronounce it. That's one that I would never correct anyone for "mispronouncing" though.

[Doug Culbertson]

Beatle - juice.

 

I don't care how it's supposed to be pronounced.

 

Ophiuchus: Awful - yuckus.

 

Uranus: Your - anus (go ahead and laugh Bevis)

 

And Cassiopeia? I've always said Cass-ee-oh-PEE-uh, but many of my former club members pronounced it Cass-ee-OH-piuh.

[Sarkikos]

If we all spoke Latin like Cicero, we'd say something like, Cahs-se-oh-PAY-e-ah.  But we don't, so why bother?  Cass-e-uh-PEE-uh is fine with me.

 

Mike

Edited by Sarkikos, 16 April 2015 - 03:30 PM.

[Starman1]

The biggest dichotomy between modern pronunciation and Classical Latin would be in how Canes Venatici is pronounced.

Most modern astronomers say Kay'-neez Venn-at'-uh-sigh.

In liturgical Latin (close to the medieval scholars, it is thought), the pronunciation was Kah'-nayz Venn-at'-uh-chee.

(sounds like italian a bit).

In Classical Latin, it's Kah'-ness Wen-at'-ih-kih with the i pronounced like the i in list.

So whatever form of the name is used, I won't make a comment.  I usually say "CVN"

 

Wikipedia lists several pronunciations for Betelgeuse:

/ˈbiːtəldʒuːz/,  or bit'-uhl-jooz (hard j sound)

/ˈbɛtəldʒuːz/,  or bet'-uhl-jooz

/ˈbiːtəldʒɜrz/  or bit'-uhl-jerz

/ˈbiːtəldʒuːs/ or bit'-uhl-joos

a little research suggests the name "beetle juice" came about because of the 1988 Tim Burton film, though I suspect that pronunciation preceded the movie.

When I was in Italy, I once heard an Italian friend say "bay'tuhl-gay'-zay", but I have no idea if that is how the Italians say it.

I can see this could be confusing.  Maybe, taking a tip from David, we should say "al'fuh Or-ee-on'-iss"

[Tony Flanders]

I used to pronounce it Bay-tuhl-jurze, where "jurze" rhymes with "furs," but minus the "r." (This vowel is common in French -- it's the one in "le." But as far as I know, it never occurs in English without the r following it.)

 

But after I learned just how mangled this name really is -- and how far Bay-tuhl-jurze is not just from the Arabic original but also from the first half-dozen mangled versions in European languages -- I decided to pronounce it Beetle Juice. Beetle Juice is totally unpretentious; it's blatantly inauthentic. Bay-tulhl-jurze, by contrast, is trying to sound authentic and failing miserably. The one thing worse than being pretentious and correct is being pretentious and incorrect.

Edited by Tony Flanders, 16 April 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Starman1]

I used to pronounce it Bay-tuhl-jurze, where "jurze" rhymes with "furs," but minus the "r." (This vowel is common in French -- it's the one in "le." But as far as I know, it never occurs in English without the r following it.)

 

But after I learned just how mangled this name really is -- and how far Bay-tuhl-jurze is not just from the Arabic original but also from the first half-dozen mangled versions in European languages -- I decided to pronounce it Beetle Juice. Beetle Juice is totally unpretentious; it's blatantly inauthentic. Bay-tulhl-jurze, by contrast, is trying to sound authentic and failing miserably. The one thing worse than being pretentious and correct is being pretentious and incorrect.

 

[hokkaido53]

I used to pronounce it Bay-tuhl-jurze, where "jurze" rhymes with "furs," but minus the "r." (This vowel is common in French -- it's the one in "le." But as far as I know, it never occurs in English without the r following it.)

 

But after I learned just how mangled this name really is -- and how far Bay-tuhl-jurze is not just from the Arabic original but also from the first half-dozen mangled versions in European languages -- I decided to pronounce it Beetle Juice. Beetle Juice is totally unpretentious; it's blatantly inauthentic. Bay-tulhl-jurze, by contrast, is trying to sound authentic and failing miserably. The one thing worse than being pretentious and correct is being pretentious and incorrect.

On the other hand, if the thing blows up this year, the problem will cease to exist.

 

Roy

[Sarkikos]

It could happen.

 

Mike

Edited by Sarkikos, 16 April 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Sarkikos]

The one thing worse than being pretentious and correct is being pretentious and incorrect.

 

Yep, you got it.

 

Mike