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#51 Dom543

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 02:48 PM

When I suggested to include some examples, I thought to add a paragraph something along these lines.

 

"Examples of such devices are image intensifier tubes, analog video cameras or digital imaging or photo cameras that display consecutive captures in near real-time using live software or other means."

 

This is just an example of what I meant by "examples". Please feel free to modify discard or include at your best collective judgment. Doe to other circumstances I will not be able to log in for awhile. 

 

Cleas Skies!

--Dom



#52 Starman27

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 04:06 PM

Great thread! Good progress being made.

#53 Relativist

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 06:00 PM

Great thread! Good progress being made.


Thanks for a while there I was worried lol. It's nice to see the different ideas discussed here openly!

#54 Dragon Man

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 08:00 AM

When I suggested to include some examples, I thought to add a paragraph something along these lines.

 

"Examples of such devices are image intensifier tubes, analog video cameras or digital imaging or photo cameras that display consecutive captures in near real-time using live software or other means."

 

This is just an example of what I meant by "examples". Please feel free to modify discard or include at your best collective judgment. Doe to other circumstances I will not be able to log in for awhile. 

 

Cleas Skies!

--Dom

Yep, I totally understand Dom.

 

Until about 3 years ago the 'Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy' section's description did include a line similar to what you propose. 

The original was however, as many may remember, quite lengthy and the Admin team decided to water it down and removed the part saying: "using devices such as Mallincam, Watec, Stellacam, IEE;s etc".

 

Then about 2 years ago it was watered down even more and the word 'Video' was removed from the description. It now meant next to nothing.

 

Then about 6 months ago, due to the rise of arguments inside the forum about what constitutes a 'Live Video Astronomy' camera and an 'Imaging' camera like the Lodestar, the whole section was renamed 'Electronically Assisted Astronomy' to cancel out the debate, but it now failed to really explain what we are about or help people looking for 'Video Astronomy'.

And the new description doesn't really explain what we are about either. Especially for someone looking to learn about this catch phrase 'Video Astronomy' that has started to become popular. 

 

I doubt that Admin will add want to add more to a description when they have already filtered it down shorter twice.

Simplicity is always best. 

But as it is, people searching for info about Video Astronomy can't find it easily.

Over at the 'Video Astronomy Forum' we get regular new members, probably because when people search in Google for 'Video Astronomy' that's what comes up.

 

No matter what technical term you want to give it: Opto, NRTV, Photonics, etc, and no matter how much you want to argue about which one is 'technically' correct, people will still call it 'Video Astronomy' because that has been it's popular name for approximately 30 years and is now it's commonly used modern name on the internet.

 

Some in here may have to swallow their pride in being technically correct and concede that to get new people in here they need to associate the title or the description easily with 'Video Astronomy', which is what people search for no matter what it's technical name is.

 

If you were in search of Eyepiece info in Cloudy Nights (or elsewhere), where do you look? 'Eyepieces' of course. But to be technically correct, the true name is an 'Ocular Lens'.

But do we ever go looking for 'Ocular Lenses'? No, we use the common name that people associate with.

I'm sure people are smart enough to understand that cameras like Lodestar, DSI, etc are now commonly used for Video Astronomy.

The term 'Video' doesn't refer to the camera's capability any more. It tends to refer to the branch of Astronomy we do. Whatever camera is used.



#55 Relativist

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 11:16 AM

So I started thinking about common use, and what's out there already. Once we get some good candidates for names & descriptions it will be up to mods & admins to check if they want by setting up a poll, maybe in the beginner section.

I also started thinking there should be a name for the techniques we are using and developing. I found the following:

http://starwars.wiki...lectrotelescope

P.S. The VXI-2c was the Electroscope model used to pick up the escape pod used by R2-D2 during episode IV. http://starwars.wiki...lectrotelescope

Edited by Relativist, 14 May 2015 - 11:28 AM.


#56 Dragon Man

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 11:29 AM

So I started thinking about common use, and what's out there already. Once we get some good candidates for names & descriptions it will be up to mods & admins to check if they want by setting up a poll, maybe in the beginner section.

I also started thinking there should be a name for the techniques we are using and developing. I found the following:

http://starwars.wiki...lectrotelescope

P.S. The VXI-2c was the Electroscope model used to pick up the escape pod used by R2-D2 during episode IV. http://starwars.wiki...lectrotelescope

And off we go with 'Technical' names again  :p

Curtis, if you are happy to pinch a mis-used name from Star Wars, go for it  :lol:
 



#57 Relativist

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 11:31 AM

And off we go with 'Technical' names again :p

Curtis, if you are happy to pinch a mis-used name from Star Wars, go for it :lol:

But a true Electroscope has nothing to do with Astronomy, cameras, observing, or any aspect of Space.

An Electroscope was a device used to detect the presence and magnitude of an electric charge of an object. It was a crude early version of a Voltmeter.

Yes that's why they inserted 'tele'. It's Electrotelescope, not Electroscope.

In addition it's a use that most everyone has seen.

P.S. Ken, I saw that you edited your post, if you don't mind, I will keep this post as is so that others know there is a difference.

Edited by Relativist, 14 May 2015 - 11:39 AM.


#58 Relativist

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 11:33 AM

Also I'm not saying that we put this on the title, but we should realize there is already a name for the aggregate equipment we use.

#59 David B in NM

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 11:41 AM

Ken suggested this earlier:

 

"A meeting place for people that use a live/semi-live image capture device for observing"

 

I believe it is very simple and easy to understand.  Perhaps if we modified it slightly to something like this:

 

"A meeting place for people viewing a live/semi-live image on an electronic device while observing"

 

David B in NM


Edited by David B in NM, 14 May 2015 - 11:42 AM.


#60 Dragon Man

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 11:59 AM

Ken suggested this earlier:

 

"A meeting place for people that use a live/semi-live image capture device for observing"

 

I believe it is very simple and easy to understand.  Perhaps if we modified it slightly to something like this:

 

"A meeting place for people viewing a live/semi-live image on an electronic device while observing"

 

David B in NM

Not to be pedantic, but the last suggestion sounds like we do it 'while observing'  in the normal 'eyepiece' method.

 

We actually do it 'for' our observing, not 'while' we are observing.

 

Yeah, I know, I'm being annoying  :lol:

 

 

Yeah Curtis, my mistake in searching for an Electroscope instead of an Electrotelescope  :p

 

but also, I have done a pretty decent search and I can't find any actual mention of an Electrotelescope outside of 'Star Wars' or the 'Marvel Comics' website.

So this leads me to believe it is only a Sci-Fi term.



#61 flyingcougar

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 12:59 PM

There has been a lot of good discussion and great ideas on this subject. I copied and pasted all of the suggestions into a document and studied it for common words/themes. Here is my shot at it;

 

"A forum to learn about and discuss live/semi-live electronic image capturing devices (e.g., image intensifiers, cameras, video, etc.) used to enhance observing sessions."

 

Sorry Curtis, I just couldn't make "optoelectronic" work. ;)

 

Flame away, but please use low heat! :flowerred:


Edited by flyingcougar, 14 May 2015 - 02:02 PM.
Updated


#62 Dom543

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 01:35 PM

If we do include examples, I suggest to also mention image intensifier tubes. The reason is that otherwise, the phrase "capturing device" is not really covering them. My preferred parenthesis phrase would be (e.g. image intensifiers, cameras, video) 

--Dom



#63 Relativist

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 01:56 PM

I think one example from each major category would be good both because it would give people ideas and also reduce confusion.

#64 Richard Whalen

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 02:03 PM

Video & NRT Astronomy



#65 Relativist

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 03:19 PM

Ken, my main motivation for pointing out the description of an 'Electrotelescope' in Sci-Fi use was to bring some fun into this discussion and also to point out that people have already dreamed up what we are actually pioneering in actual practice. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were currently more Star Wars fans familiar with the term than there are those of us actually using 'Electrotelescopes' in reality today.

Technically speaking, I would prefer the term 'Optoelectronictelescope'. That said the
'Opto' part can be implied/inferred - as it is in our current forum title, so I am also OK with simply calling the aggregate equipment we use 'Electrotelescope'.

In addition, I am hoping that everyone participating in this thread would read the in depth description in the link http://starwars.wiki...lectrotelescope I provided. I found it interesting that many of the features are things we are already capable of or are close to fruition.

I will note also that I fought buying any astro equipment that had any electronics for the longest time I simply had a 10" Dob, with the only exception of a telrad to guide the way. At the time I wanted my hobby to be as non-technical as possible since my work had enough technical aspects to fill my interest and more. So I understand the 'aversion' of science discussion here, but many out there do enjoy the science aspect and there is nothing wrong with that either.

#66 Dragon Man

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 02:26 AM

Ken, my main motivation for pointing out the description of an 'Electrotelescope' in Sci-Fi use was to bring some fun into this discussion and also to point out that people have already dreamed up what we are actually pioneering in actual practice. 

We aren't pioneering anything  :lol:

 

Video Astronomy has been around a loooong time  :)

 

Here's an article from 1928 about Video Astronomy for Mars viewing

HERE

 

and have a look at Gil Miles observing the Moon from his backyard at Croydon, Sydney Australia in about 1961:

http://static.wixsta...20_0.00_jpg_srz

 

:lol:

 

We are, however, advancing it   :waytogo:



#67 nytecam

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 04:33 AM

The current EAA name of this forum is more that adequate.  Importantly it's inclusive of newer techologies like image intensifiers, regular DSLR and astro CCD cameras used in brief live-view mode alongside video and all are capable of great results.  This thread is dominated by video users but things have moved on.

 

Just to prove that near-live CCD imaging has some history I've dug out my old 1995 SX framestore module and SX 512 cooled camera [below]. It displayed DSOs to a TV monitor and coupled, via RS232 printer port, to a DOS PC of that era which were incapable alone of handling the downloaded image files on-the-fly.  

 

20 yrs on and beside the MX512 camera is my Lodestar colour camer powered, controlled and displayed via a commonplace laptop via a single USB lead.  How simple than that.  Simplicity of use is what we like on this forum!

Attached Thumbnails

  • framestore-all.jpg

Edited by nytecam, 20 May 2015 - 04:37 AM.


#68 Dom543

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:12 PM

Wow!

That equipment deserves a place in the Museum of Technology!

 

--Dom



#69 Dwight J

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 06:12 PM

I agree with Maurice, EAA is an adequate title and encompasses what we do and equipment used.  



#70 Roberti

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 02:35 PM

This has been a really interesting thread and at the risk of making a fool of myself on my first ever post, I’d like to give the perspective of a relative newbie on the subject….

 

I am a fairly experienced visual observer but for the longest time I did not know what video astronomy was. When I saw the term “video astronomy” the question at the back of my mind was always “Why would I want to video static objects?”, it just didn’t seem to fulfil any of my needs and I never looked into it further.

 

I got into it via a strange route; I had a Lodestar for guiding (although due to the need to travel to a dark site and lack of time I rarely used it), I listened to one of John Kramer’s excellent ‘At the Eyepiece’ podcasts and he mentioned that he had tried the ‘Lodestar Live’ software. I gave it a go and realised that near-real time viewing with a Lodestar was a great way to observe if you don’t have dark skies, are pushed for time and want to record an ‘electronic sketch’ of the night’s observing.

 

Further research into this area revealed the wide range of equipment used for this kind of observing and I realise that the term Video Astronomy came about from the technology being used and not necessarily from the need being fulfilled.

 

So it seems to me that the term ‘Video Astronomy’ makes perfect sense when you already know what it is, but it doesn’t mean much to a newbie and doesn’t really help to ‘spread the word’ to prospective new enthusiasts.

 

So I wholeheartedly agree with the decision  to dispense with the term ‘Video Astronomy’ in the forum. ‘EAA’ seems like a much better alternative but it is somewhat vague, and I’m sure there are better terms which would be more meaningful  to newbies. I won’t dare venture any suggestions on my first post given the ‘robust’ debate so far.

 

The other point is I think newbies will find this Forum’s inclusion under ‘Equipment’ rather confusing. I don’t see why there can’t be two sections, one for EAA Equipment Discussion and one for EAA Observing Reports; perhaps there is not enough activity to justify this or perhaps people already post EEA captures in the observing section?

 

I hope the newbie view was of interest. :)

 

Rob



#71 Relativist

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 02:39 PM

My guess is an 'EAA' observing forum would do much to bring in new people and open eyes.

Edited by Relativist, 21 May 2015 - 02:40 PM.


#72 Don Rudny

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 05:46 PM

Hi Rob,

 

Welcome to the EAA forum.  Excellent post.  When I first started to get into EAA about two years ago, I got myself a Samsung 2000 analogue video cam.  When I told my wife what I was up to, she said, "why would you want to take a video of something that doesn't move?"  So your view is appreciated.  Later, I also found that the Lodestar does a great job for what I call now near real time viewing/observing.  I also like your suggestion about a separate EAA observing forum.  Right now, I think the EAA image thread does some of that, but is probably hard to find.



#73 will w

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 05:07 PM

Hi, EAA  seems to be a good simple title for this forum. It kinda says it all. Not to high tech. :lol:  will w



#74 Dragon Man

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 10:11 AM

I think it's the section 'description' that really needs clarification, not so much the section title.

 

Reading back through the whole thread there are some good suggestions.



#75 Relativist

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 08:23 PM

Thanks Ken, maybe the mods can change the title of the thread to 'Forum title or description suggestion'.

In addition, as has been pointed out we really could use an observation forum, as the recent enthusiasm in the image thread for the ATIK captures seems to indicate.


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