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Best Entry Level Full Color DIY Camera is LN300-PAL

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#351 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 05:49 PM

I know pretty sure EOS HD 802 is RJ-10 DSP.  I have few of them, NTSC and PAL versions.

 

I have no clue what EOS HD 803 is.  Probably it is RJ-10+ but prior to "RJ-11 (in which the Korean RJ Electronics is sold/absorbed to China RJ Electronics)".

 

I don't know if EOS HD 820 is a typo or not.

 

AFAIK,

 

1) all RJ-10 based video cams do not have "color disappearing" fall-back to B&W mode (under low light) problem.

this include few $25 LN300-10xxx cameras (PQ0133, PQ0134, etc. mostly OOS), AVS $25 DIY cam (if it is still in stock), and perhaps the new "unknown 803/820 cams".

 

2) other than special firmware mod, RJ-11 NTSC version (11672, 11810) will have that color fall-back to B&W mode "issue" 

    <-- for astro low light use, it may be viewed as disadvantages. for security surveilance use, it is beneficial

 

3) RJ-11 DSP PAL version (11673, 11811) does not have problem stated in (2)

 

Clear Skies!

 

ccs_hello

 

On point #3, mine is color at Brightness 2, AGC set to anything. Soon as AGC is set to High, and Brightness is increased gradually, I very quickly loose my colors, and then long after that bright scenes blow out to almost white. And mine is PAL. I seem to have the only RJ11 PAL LN300 camera on Earth that does this?

 

Just my luck.

 

Alistair G.



#352 CharlesC

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:01 PM

 

I know pretty sure EOS HD 802 is RJ-10 DSP.  I have few of them, NTSC and PAL versions.

 

I have no clue what EOS HD 803 is.  Probably it is RJ-10+ but prior to "RJ-11 (in which the Korean RJ Electronics is sold/absorbed to China RJ Electronics)".

 

I don't know if EOS HD 820 is a typo or not.

 

AFAIK,

 

1) all RJ-10 based video cams do not have "color disappearing" fall-back to B&W mode (under low light) problem.

this include few $25 LN300-10xxx cameras (PQ0133, PQ0134, etc. mostly OOS), AVS $25 DIY cam (if it is still in stock), and perhaps the new "unknown 803/820 cams".

 

2) other than special firmware mod, RJ-11 NTSC version (11672, 11810) will have that color fall-back to B&W mode "issue" 

    <-- for astro low light use, it may be viewed as disadvantages. for security surveilance use, it is beneficial

 

3) RJ-11 DSP PAL version (11673, 11811) does not have problem stated in (2)

 

Clear Skies!

 

ccs_hello

 

On point #3, mine is color at Brightness 2, AGC set to anything. Soon as AGC is set to High, and Brightness is increased gradually, I very quickly loose my colors, and then long after that bright scenes blow out to almost white. And mine is PAL. I seem to have the only RJ11 PAL LN300 camera on Earth that does this?

 

Just my luck.

 

Alistair G.

 

 

Most set AGC=LOW and leave it there.  Set brightness=40, unless you are going after hopelessly dim object, or you will likely blow out objects core.  Leave GAMMA=1, and only adjust exposure and DNR.  If you do that, you'll get color, on objects that have color.


Edited by CharlesC, 13 February 2016 - 06:02 PM.


#353 CA Curtis 17

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 12:19 PM

Last night the sky cleared around mid-night and I had very good, maybe excellent conditions for viewing.  He is a single frame capture of M51, one of my favorite objects.  It is relatively easy for EAA since it is so big and bright, but I revel in it every time I image with one of my analog video cameras.  The image below was taken with my Lntech 300 PAL on a Celestron 9.25" SCT, using my Mallincam MFR5II focal reducer for an f-ratio of ~f/4.5.  No filters were used.  I stacked 20 frames and stretched in Nebulosity and the resulting image almost looks 3D to me.  I will post it on my web site since I don't think people like processed images posted in this forum.

 

Single frame captured with Miloslick software.

Exposure = 20sec (1024x)

AGC = Mid

Brightness = 99

Gamma = 1

3D-DNR = 5

Video Contrast & Brightness set to get the best image I could.

 

By the way, relative to the last few posts, I don't have any trouble with color using AGC high and Brightness at 99 with this camera which has the ICX811 CCD and the RJ11 DSP.  My Micro has the ICX672 and the RJ11 but does have the color issue. 

 

 

Best Regards,

Curtis

 

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • M51 AGC Mid 20sec 3DNR52-13-20160199.jpg

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#354 OleCuss

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 10:25 AM

The LN300 is again available through MiracleCottage on eBay:  http://www.ebay.com/...4cAAOSw3ydViALA

 

Only two available right now so you'll have to act fast if you want one.

 

Edit:  It may have the older sensor.  Some language suggests it is the older and other language suggest it may be the newer.


Edited by OleCuss, 24 February 2016 - 10:27 AM.


#355 xrayvizhen

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 11:00 AM

I saw this a few days ago and because of the 2 O.H. have been keeping mum BUT also thinking about how much extra "stuff" I would need to buy to make it functional for EAA and approach the amount of equipment included with either the MallinCam Micro or Revolution kits. I'm estimating:

 

C-Mount - 1.25" Nose-piece   $25.00 (Agena Astro)

.5x Focal Reducer                    $30.00 (Agena Astro)

7" LCD Monitor                        $24.00 (EBay)

Video Cable                             $  9.00 (anywhere)

DC Power Cable                      $0.00  (have)

12VDCLIPO Battery                 $0.00 (have)

USB Frame Grabber               $15.00 (Amazon)

 

Have I missed anything?



#356 CharlesC

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 11:21 AM

Remember that LN300-PAL is a DIY proposition.  You can only control camera with buttons on back.  You will have to modify it.  You can add a wired remote, bluetooth remote, or UTC remote (if you can find the UTC board). 

 

The UTC remote boards are no longer available on aliexpress.  The OCT Revolution comes with UTC ability and includes UTC remote and c-mount adapter all for $99.  Not sure if Mike is still honoring that unoffical offer of Revolution without the kit.  If so, its hard to justify modifying a LN300-PAL as savings would be nill.


Edited by CharlesC, 24 February 2016 - 11:25 AM.


#357 OleCuss

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:12 PM

I saw this a few days ago and because of the 2 O.H. have been keeping mum BUT also thinking about how much extra "stuff" I would need to buy to make it functional for EAA and approach the amount of equipment included with either the MallinCam Micro or Revolution kits. I'm estimating:

 

C-Mount - 1.25" Nose-piece   $25.00 (Agena Astro)

.5x Focal Reducer                    $30.00 (Agena Astro)

7" LCD Monitor                        $24.00 (EBay)

Video Cable                             $  9.00 (anywhere)

DC Power Cable                      $0.00  (have)

12VDCLIPO Battery                 $0.00 (have)

USB Frame Grabber               $15.00 (Amazon)

 

Have I missed anything?

 

You've got most things detailed there.  The biggest concern I've got is that the LN300 may be the older one with the sensor I don't like quite as much.

 

Also, if you are getting the frame grabber you are apparently going to use the thing with a computer and you simply don't need to get a monitor at all.  If you decide to get the monitor, make sure it will work with PAL (it likely will) and that it has plenty of pixels to display all that your camera is gathering for you - I'm betting that 7" monitor won't display all the pixels your camera is using.

 

I don't like having a frame grabber sticking out the side of my computer so I prefer one of the video capture devices from Diamond Multimedia.  It plugs into the computer through a cable so I can position the device more favorably.  I have a little enclosure into which I can put my computer to reduce light issues for those around me (and to protect) and the thing is sufficiently cramped that the Diamond Multimedia unit is essential for those few times I choose to use the computer.

 

Do remember that you can also get an upgraded LN300 with much of what you want from AVS:  http://www.astro-vid...e-dso-enrm.html  You'd still need to add a battery or a cheap AC adapter and a focal reducer.

 

But sticking with that LN300 and buying just what you want would still work pretty well.

 

Whichever way you go, before you buy make sure you know what sensor is in the camera and if you get a monitor make sure it will actually display what you capture.

 

Edit:  Oops!

 

I just got someone advising me that I'm giving some bad info.

 

It turns out that the LN300s we are talking about are back to the old RJ10 version - both the one from MiracleCottage and probably the Revolution version.  The electronics in the RJ10 are not as good as the RJ11 (no ability to do in-camera stacking and such.

 

Sorry, I'd probably avoid the un-modified LN300s unless you just cannot upgrade.  The AVS DSO-1 is a modified RJ11 so that should not be a problem for that unit.

 

Again, sorry about that.


Edited by OleCuss, 24 February 2016 - 12:22 PM.


#358 Censustaker

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:45 PM

You may be giving bad info again: See Ken's post about the difference between the revolution firmware versions. the newer ones still do in camera stacking and still do colour regardless of AGC/SENSE-UP settings.


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#359 xrayvizhen

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:47 PM

 


Again, sorry about that.

 

No worries. I knew it was RJ10 because that's how I found it...googling "RJ10 DSP Camera" and up it popped. I'm thinking by the time all is said and done, it will be almost $200 spent. Might as well go for the extra $ and get one of the "everything included" kits. That is, unless I change horses and go with one of the guide-camera type of units like the ZWO-ASI224MC. Basically, I want something simple and easy. Also, I'm nervous about buying from China. I emailed a couple of Ali-Express vendors and getting questions answered from any of them is like pulling teeth. Makes me suspicious.

 

Still unsure, trying to learn, gathering information, etc., etc.


Edited by xrayvizhen, 24 February 2016 - 12:52 PM.

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#360 CharlesC

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:38 PM

More bad information.  

 

No one is selling LN300 cameras with RJ11 DSP anymore as this DSP is out of production.   The new LN300s have 802 DSP that has firmware to perform like a RJ11.  The new LN300s seem to perform as well as the old ones.  Revolution only sells the new LN300 with ICX811 PAL CCD. 

 

For a short period Miracle Cottage resorted to selling LN300 with RJ10 (with limited X512 ability) when RJ11s were phased out but those have been flushed out.  Now they sell only 802 DSP versions.


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#361 Kaikul

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:48 PM

More bad information.  

 

No one is selling LN300 cameras with RJ11 DSP anymore as this DSP is out of production.   The new LN300s have 802 DSP that has firmware to perform like a RJ11.  The new LN300s seem to perform as well as the old ones.  Revolution only sells the new LN300 with ICX811 PAL CCD. 

 

For a short period Miracle Cottage resorted to selling LN300 with RJ10 (with limited X512 ability) when RJ11s were phased out but those have been flushed out.  Now they sell only 802 DSP versions.

 

So just for clarification, what type of DSP does the new LN300-PAL ICX811 - the one that OCT sells now - has?



#362 CharlesC

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:55 PM

 

More bad information.  

 

No one is selling LN300 cameras with RJ11 DSP anymore as this DSP is out of production.   The new LN300s have 802 DSP that has firmware to perform like a RJ11.  The new LN300s seem to perform as well as the old ones.  Revolution only sells the new LN300 with ICX811 PAL CCD. 

 

For a short period Miracle Cottage resorted to selling LN300 with RJ10 (with limited X512 ability) when RJ11s were phased out but those have been flushed out.  Now they sell only 802 DSP versions.

 

So just for clarification, what type of DSP does the new LN300-PAL ICX811 - the one that OCT sells now - has?

 

 

Revolution has the new 802 DSP and ICX811 PAL CCD.  Like the out of production RJ11 DSP, the 802 DSP is full color with AGC,  has internal 3DNR stacking, takes X1024 exposures, and CN posts show it to perform as well as old RJ11 units. 



#363 OleCuss

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 02:24 PM

 


Revolution has the new 802 DSP and ICX811 PAL CCD.  Like the out of production RJ11 DSP, the 802 DSP is full color with AGC,  has internal 3DNR stacking, takes X1024 exposures, and CN posts show it to perform as well as old RJ11 units. 

 

 

That's interesting!  Do you have any links to show us a side-by-side comparison?  I'd really like to see how they compare with no post-processing using the same optics and at effectively the same time?

 

I'm trying to get this one all sorted out but so far it looks like the RJ11 had the memory to do the stacking and the RJ10 even with the 802-DSP doesn't have the memory to do the stacking and is using something like a filter to do data smoothing and make things look less noisy - sort of a "star-eater" tech if you please.

 

It might give you a pleasing image but it may be really messing with the data


Edited by OleCuss, 24 February 2016 - 02:25 PM.


#364 Censustaker

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 02:26 PM

Ken has side-by-sides in his thread: http://www.cloudynig...-imager-models/



#365 CharlesC

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 02:48 PM

 

 


Revolution has the new 802 DSP and ICX811 PAL CCD.  Like the out of production RJ11 DSP, the 802 DSP is full color with AGC,  has internal 3DNR stacking, takes X1024 exposures, and CN posts show it to perform as well as old RJ11 units. 

 

 

That's interesting!  Do you have any links to show us a side-by-side comparison?  I'd really like to see how they compare with no post-processing using the same optics and at effectively the same time?

 

I'm trying to get this one all sorted out but so far it looks like the RJ11 had the memory to do the stacking and the RJ10 even with the 802-DSP doesn't have the memory to do the stacking and is using something like a filter to do data smoothing and make things look less noisy - sort of a "star-eater" tech if you please.

 

It might give you a pleasing image but it may be really messing with the data

 

 

I would like to see a side by side comparison of old versus new LN300 menus, but no one has done that.

Don't post here, but use link Jon (CensusTaker) provided in above post.  There is where it belongs.



#366 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 10:44 PM

Someone told me ;-  "The RJ11 is also the only one that performs the 5 successive frame stacking by actually having a 5 frame RAM circular buffer.
The RJ9 doesn't have any 3D-NR. The RJ10 has less RAM than the RJ11 and has room for only one frame buffer instead of 5 . The RJ10 3D-NR is not stacking 5 frames. It is simply performing a weighted average between the incoming new frame and the previous frame buffer, and placing the result of this weighted
average in the frame buffer. That's basically :-
FRAME_BUFFER <= weight_coeff1 * NEW_FRAME + weight_coeff2 * FRAME_BUFFER
This is just a low pass filter with a cut off frequency that's dictated by the weight coefficients for the new frame and the frame buffer old array . The coefficients are chosen for the weighted sum to equal unity .
This is what the 3D-NR setting modifies in the RJ10 processor. This is very different from actually integrating 5 separate frames and adding them .
The above apply to the camera designators as set by Lntech. However, the reality is that Lntech stopped making any RJ11 cameras months ago.

 

I was told that ;- "The Aliexpress/ebay small vendors that were trying to sell the
"replacement" camera were actually selling a slightly modified RJ10 camera board that was packaged probably on their kitchen table into LN300 small enclosures. The old RJ10 got a few lines of code added to its firmware and got a new designator silkscreened on top as EOS803 instead of EOS802 , which is the RJ10 stock part number. At this time, nobody sells a RJ11 camra with icx672/3 or icx810/1 sensor in any enclosure."

 

RJ11 processors were available on a reel of 5000 RJ11 in 2013 BTW.

 

Someone also told me that "There is no difference between the amp glow of an icx81x and icx67x sensor. They all have amp glow. The various camera batches from Lntech just had different firmware versions , some with higher allowable maximum front end gain . Those were the noisier and more sensitive plus with more amp glow in their stock version . You can check amp glow in a RJ11 camera by capping the camera with its original cap , which is IR opaque , set integration to x1024 (sense-u to off) , AGC to maximum, brightness to 99 , gamma =0.3 and let it run for more than 5 integration cycles."

 

Regards,

 

Alistair G.


Edited by Live_Steam_Mad, 24 February 2016 - 10:56 PM.

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#367 Censustaker

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 11:32 PM

That's all very interesting, but as they say "the proof is in the pudding." And I think Ken's side by side shows the newer firmware, whatever it is, is a very capable camera and proves its worthiness as an EAA camera (regardless of what Matt says)
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#368 Relativist

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 11:48 PM

Someone told me ;-  "The RJ11 is also the only one that performs the 5 successive frame stacking by actually having a 5 frame RAM circular buffer.
The RJ9 doesn't have any 3D-NR. The RJ10 has less RAM than the RJ11 and has room for only one frame buffer instead of 5 . The RJ10 3D-NR is not stacking 5 frames. It is simply performing a weighted average between the incoming new frame and the previous frame buffer, and placing the result of this weighted
average in the frame buffer. That's basically :-
FRAME_BUFFER <= weight_coeff1 * NEW_FRAME + weight_coeff2 * FRAME_BUFFER
This is just a low pass filter with a cut off frequency that's dictated by the weight coefficients for the new frame and the frame buffer old array . The coefficients are chosen for the weighted sum to equal unity .
This is what the 3D-NR setting modifies in the RJ10 processor. This is very different from actually integrating 5 separate frames and adding them .
The above apply to the camera designators as set by Lntech. However, the reality is that Lntech stopped making any RJ11 cameras months ago.

 

I was told that ;- "The Aliexpress/ebay small vendors that were trying to sell the
"replacement" camera were actually selling a slightly modified RJ10 camera board that was packaged probably on their kitchen table into LN300 small enclosures. The old RJ10 got a few lines of code added to its firmware and got a new designator silkscreened on top as EOS803 instead of EOS802 , which is the RJ10 stock part number. At this time, nobody sells a RJ11 camra with icx672/3 or icx810/1 sensor in any enclosure."

 

RJ11 processors were available on a reel of 5000 RJ11 in 2013 BTW.

 

Someone also told me that "There is no difference between the amp glow of an icx81x and icx67x sensor. They all have amp glow. The various camera batches from Lntech just had different firmware versions , some with higher allowable maximum front end gain . Those were the noisier and more sensitive plus with more amp glow in their stock version . You can check amp glow in a RJ11 camera by capping the camera with its original cap , which is IR opaque , set integration to x1024 (sense-u to off) , AGC to maximum, brightness to 99 , gamma =0.3 and let it run for more than 5 integration cycles."

 

Regards,

 

Alistair G.

 

Unfortunately Alistair, it's hard to know what to say without proof, in addition exclusionary statements about what 'others' are doing/not doing is second hand information. If you want to know about a particular camera from any vendor I'd ask directly.



#369 CharlesC

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 12:09 AM

The method of stacking in RJ11 has been discussed here before.  There is "additive" and "averaging" stacking.  The RJ11 used "averaging" stacking to smooth background, but didn't brighten image.  The new LN300 stacked pics posted on CN look the same to me.  Since the free SharpCap 2.7 came out with true "additive" stacking ability,  I never use DNR stacking anymore. 



#370 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 12:41 AM

One thing that I wonder about is whether you can use Micro Extended Control with all these various LN300's?

 

Mine is RJ11 and allows me to use this free software and it works great (but I did have to modify the camera by soldering to it to make this work). However I have seen some screenshots of the menu on the recent LN300 that Miracle Cottage (where I got my camera) is selling, and the menu looks different to mine. I am not sure if this software still would work with it. Also I was told that the DSO-1 can't quite properly use this software, presumably because of menu differences? Is that right?

 

Anyway I'm happy with my LN300 11673 for the time being and I have to say that I find this software very useful, although Simon told me that I have an old version of the software and should download the newer MEC. Maybe support has been added for more different LN300 style cameras in the new MEC software?

 

I have also started to use the sharpening in the video grabber instead or in combination with the camera's Sharpness menu, since the camera's built in sharpening is apparently done post-CCD and is rather aggressive with artfacts (black halo effect I think) compared to my video grabber's sharpening (my grabber is an EasyCap (clone) with USBTV007 chipset).

 

Regards,

 

Alistair G.


Edited by Live_Steam_Mad, 25 February 2016 - 12:48 AM.


#371 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:56 PM

My LN300 RJ11 camera has almost this exact same menu (this menu comparison between Revolution models was mentioned by Censustaker) as the "old version" in this document ;-

 

http://www.revolutio...com/pages/menus

 

...but mine seems to have at least one difference, I have a "LENS CORR." (lens correction?) (extra item) between DPC and EXIT in the SYS menu.

 

This seems to create a small problem with MMEC version 1.0.1.7 that I am using (i.e. I believe MMEC thinks that LENS CORR is where EXIT is in the SYS menu, when you click on the Moon preset for example, so it almost completes the setting change but doesn't quite make it to Exit and Save, I assume).

 

Finally, I have a FREEZE menu item in the EFFECT menu that MMEC doesn't take into account, so if I choose preset #3 "Change mirror setting to Horizontal", I have to add an additional command to the preset's text to get it to work properly.

 

Not sure how common my particular RJ11 microcode is, it was one of the last ones made, with serial number / date code 2015/09/17/0019.

 

I have been using MMEC software version 1.0.1.7 .

 

I just downloaded 1.0.2.0 and found it got worse in some respects LOL... I don't like the new one that splits the adjustments and manual controls off into separate windows and I don't like that I can no longer hold down the mouse button to get it to increase e.g. Brightness, I now have to click multiple times...

 

They seem to have fixed the SENS-UP though, since if the camera was in LENS AUTO and SENS UP to a number (and not OFF), MMEC does work instead of screwing up like it did in 1.0.1.7. Looks like 1.0.2.0 still has the problem of my LENS CORR. item stopping it getting to Exit and Save properly.

 

I just sent them a "bug" report concerning the use of my LN300 RJ11 with MMEC (but to be fair it's only meant to be used with the MC Micro Ex, Super, and Pro DOB II cameras).

 

Regards,

 

Alistair G.


Edited by Live_Steam_Mad, 25 February 2016 - 08:09 PM.

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#372 CharlesC

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 09:45 PM

This thread will help you figure out MMEC menuing.  Others have figured it out for you.

You should be able to adapt this to new menus.  Start a new thread if you figure it out.

Don't want to stray off topic.  A new topic, "MMEC Custom Presets for 802 LN300" would do.

http://www.cloudynig...esets-for-mmec/


Edited by CharlesC, 25 February 2016 - 09:48 PM.


#373 Live_Steam_Mad

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 05:08 PM

OK so I added LN300 RJ11 Macros for MMEC here ;-

 

http://www.cloudynig...00-rj11-macros/

 

Regards,

 

Alistair G.


Edited by Live_Steam_Mad, 11 March 2016 - 05:09 PM.

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