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Will Astronomy hardware and software adopt windows 10?

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#1 Hilmi

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:24 AM

I have a sneaking suspicion that Windows 10 will be rejected by the astronomical equipment and software industry. The reason? Well, it force installs updates and there is no way to turn it off. Astronomy software and hardware makers will not be able to keep up with support issues as windows constantly changes and updates.

 

What are your thoughts on this?



#2 obin robinson

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:39 AM

Either adapt or lose business. There's no other option.

 

obin :)



#3 it_frog

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:15 AM

If you reserve a copy. Win 10 website says you can install now (after 7/29) or pick a time when you want.

Hopes this helps.



#4 rmollise

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 01:45 PM

I have a sneaking suspicion that Windows 10 will be rejected by the astronomical equipment and software industry. The reason? Well, it force installs updates and there is no way to turn it off. Astronomy software and hardware makers will not be able to keep up with support issues as windows constantly changes and updates.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

That your suspicion is wrong. The software companies will update their programs as usual and as required.

 

That and the fact that this is not that different from Win 7 or Win 8.


Edited by rmollise, 29 June 2015 - 01:48 PM.


#5 Hilmi

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 01:49 PM

Windows Vista was pretty much not supported at all. Windows 8 was not well supported until version 8.1 introduced some much needed changes.

 

Windows 10 looks good to me, but I really am concerned about the concept of forced updates. Because the updates aren't only security updates, they are feature updates too. Which means if a developer writes a program that uses a specific feature and Microsoft decides to retire that feature, your software is broken. This could be a headache for small developers.



#6 Goofi

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:23 PM

Hilmi, my concern on Windows 10 is its update feature, but not for the reasons you shared.  As I understand it, the software will automatically download and install updates. This isn't an issue for my desktop computer I do image processing on but my laptop that I image with this might be an issue. If the laptop decides to reboot in the middle of an image I'm going to get a little bit grumpy!  My workaround to this is what I do now - leave my wifi off. Hopefully I won't get updates without wifi and it won't be an issue. But the inability to schedule or control updates is an issue for me.



#7 jackofalltrades

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 08:58 PM

I think the premise of the question is a bit pessimistic.  So far, all software - astro software included - works just fine on Windows 10 from what I've seen.  And several astro software developers are already working to upgrade their software to take advantage of the newer touch screen tablets using Win 8.1 and 10.  As for whether we, the end users, will welcome and adopt Windows 10 is another matter, but so far I haven't found anything that doesn't work.  In fact, everything I've tried works much better on both Win 8.1 and Win 10 than on Win 7.

 

Like others though, I personally am concerned by the change of Windows updates to automatic only, with no choice of which to download and install.



#8 Hilmi

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 02:49 AM

I think it is fair to be pesimistic, till around 6 months back there was some recent model astro-equipment that did not support windows 8 and had only released drivers recently.

 

Till today, the Losmandy Gemini II system has no certified driver for the USB connection, which means if your preferred method of controlling the mount is USB, you have no easy way of installing the driver. You have to use some complex work around which even a person like me, who has been using computers since the 80's and have built all my desktops myself have failed to make work. I believe windows 10 will be even more strict about requiring certified drivers.

 

Just last week I was looking at something from another industry which has even wider adoption than astronomy and I was shocked to see the requirements say "Windows XP, will not work with windows 7 or windows 8"



#9 jackofalltrades

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 06:18 AM

I don't doubt you on your observation, but whether or not a driver and interface is designed around USB vs the old Serial interface is a hardware issue, not a Windows compatibility issue.  I know of very few mounts designed to use a USB interface, at least not without a Serial port somewhere in the chain.  If I'm not mistaken, even the more "modern" wireless interfaces require a WiFi-Serial or Bluetooth-Serial adapter to make the connection.

 

It's got nothing to do with the OS.  The archaic Serial port interface issue is the same regardless of OS one is using, whether it be Windows, Mac, or Nix.  It's a result of manufacturers refusing to adapt to modern hardware standards, not the software it runs on.  Because the hardware manufacturer refuses to upgrade their hardware interface has nothing to do with the software developer updating their software for the OS in use.



#10 Hilmi

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 06:21 AM

Which is exactly what I have been saying. My question was if the astronomy related industry will adapt. I know windows is not at fault

Edited by Hilmi, 05 July 2015 - 06:22 AM.


#11 rmollise

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:32 AM

Hilmi, my concern on Windows 10 is its update feature, but not for the reasons you shared.  As I understand it, the software will automatically download and install updates. This isn't an issue for my desktop computer I do image processing on but my laptop that I image with this might be an issue. If the laptop decides to reboot in the middle of an image I'm going to get a little bit grumpy!  My workaround to this is what I do now - leave my wifi off. Hopefully I won't get updates without wifi and it won't be an issue. But the inability to schedule or control updates is an issue for me.

 

Hardly a concern. Many people like me have auto-updates turned on with Win 7. You are wise to do so. If you think that might happen while imaging (the computer will give you the option to delay), just turn off your wireless internet connection or temporarily turn off your auto-updates. Again NOTHING DIFFFERENT here. ;)



#12 rmollise

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:34 AM

The fact that most telescope makers still use "serial" isn't because they are behind the times. It is because in many ways, that's still the best, easiest to set up interface for scopes. ;



#13 GJJim

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:44 AM

Some of the astro software and drivers I own haven't seen an update since XP.  :lol:



#14 Goofi

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 02:50 PM

Rod, I may be wrong (and I hope I am) but Win10 is different  -  in Win7 I have the choice of updating or delaying the update; in Win10 it never asks and just updates/reboots.  My concern is if it reboots for the update while imaging I've lost at least one sub, possibly more. 

 

As you said, I can turn off wifi and try and avoid the issue, but the lack of choice is troubling  and is most definitely different.



#15 star drop

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:05 PM

Is it possible to set a firewall to not allow Windows updates?



#16 it_frog

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 12:39 AM

Hi All,

I hope I can help with some info.

 

ME: I have been with win form 3.0 till present. Along with DOS. I am now 59. Many years with Win.

I also have a degree in Networking.

 

With that said,

 

IF and ONLY IF you have reserved a copy for download will you get Win 10 in your updates.

If you did reserve a copy you can cancel it.

You should see a "white window" in the lower right corner of your pc.

Click on it, in the window that pops up go to the Left Top and click on the 3 dashes.  

Then go down to " view confirmation", the next window, on the left side click on "cancel reservation"

And now you will NOT get Win 10.

 

If you do want it, and you did reserve a copy you can delay its down load Before July 29.

Check in the window at the lower right of your pc. You can find how to delay the download. 

 

Hope this helps

 

P.S. you cannot block win updates in the firewall.

 

Bob W



#17 trevize

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:40 AM

I'm hoping for more OS X and Linux adoption :-)

 

Windows has left accessibility out in recent versions.   Thus myself and my son can no longer use Windows since version 7 without using some extremely expensive add-ons and in Windows 8 and so far in 10beta those add-on's no longer work.   However, OS X has accessibility built into the OS  for FREE for the last 10+ years now...   Pretty much a done deal for me.  Linux also has tons of Free accessibility options.



#18 obin robinson

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 01:23 PM

I'm hoping for more OS X and Linux adoption :-)

That's not going to happen especially for small companies. Microsoft operating systems are in over 91% of all computers worldwide. For a small company it doesn't make sense to hire a programmer just for Macintosh and Linux.

 

obin :)



#19 trevize

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 02:19 PM

 

I'm hoping for more OS X and Linux adoption :-)

That's not going to happen especially for small companies. Microsoft operating systems are in over 91% of all computers worldwide. For a small company it doesn't make sense to hire a programmer just for Macintosh and Linux.

 

obin :)

 

 

 

You're a bit off on that "91%".    Latest numbers that I found googling around.... (fwiw)  are showing Windows around 75%, OS X 10% and Linux 5%,  and Others filling in the rest.

 

Also, coming from the field of Astrophysics, most of us are all using UNIX/Linux based systems.   All of the systems I manage are Solaris and Linux and handle the data from Chandra.  :-)   We all have a fairly strong dislike for Windows around here.

 

 

While I understand the issue of small companies trying to develop software for multiple OS's it certainly isn't all that painful to do.   TheSky/Bisque does it, SkySafari, even Lodestar Live all do it.   OS X shares a lot of common code work with BSD Unix.   It really isn't that big a leap.   Also, many of these small companies jump readily into tablets, IOS and Andriod.   I don't think asking for OS X compatible software is all that much drama.   I do however think the time of assuming everybody is using Windows is rather misguided.   #1 selling notebook is the Macbook and the idea that I have to buy VMWare fusion and then buy Windows just to run a app.   Not to mention the accessibility issues I already mentioned.   Anyway, I shall keep asking for OS X compatible version of things as I'm not just going to roll over and run Windows.    Also, anybody else notice that soon as you fire up a Windows VM battery usage go through the roof!   What's up with that!   The only time my CPU fans are ever heard is when I run Windows!  

 

Anyway, can obviously endlessly go in circles around the OS X vs Windows dead horse battle.   Suffice to say, I'll happily run Linux or OS X and have no interest what so ever spending my time at the telescope doing Windows system patches.   



#20 jackofalltrades

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 05:08 PM

I can't speak for a MacBook or battery usage, but I can speak for the heavy fan use. The only time I hear my fans on my new 2.6GHz Mac Mini is when I'm running my VM.



#21 Hilmi

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 05:25 PM

Could it be because you are effectively running two operating systems at once?



#22 jackofalltrades

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:17 PM

Exactly what it is, you're double-taxing the CPU, RAM and video card/GPU all at the same time.



#23 trevize

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:36 PM

It's the same behavior with Bootcamp  :)

 

I'm just saying running on batteries and running a VM doesn't mix well.   External power will be required.

 

That said, running a Linux VM or Linux under Bootcamp doesn't have the same behavior in pegging the CPU while um... idle!



#24 bluesteel

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:57 PM

Is it possible to set a firewall to not allow Windows updates?

Don't see why not.  Would be a trivial thing to do if you have a firewall between the internet and your system.  Might work as well with 3rd party software based firewalls.  I know I can do it via software firewalls to block Windows Updates servers in Win 7. 



#25 it_frog

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 08:09 PM

Just turn off updates!


Edited by it_frog, 06 July 2015 - 08:10 PM.



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