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Will Astronomy hardware and software adopt windows 10?

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#26 jackofalltrades

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 08:32 PM

I don't believe you can do that in Win 10, unless you do some serious Registry hacking.



#27 Michael Covington

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 08:32 PM

I'm a software developer.  It is *hard* to write software that is sensitive to the difference between Vista, Win 7, Win 8, and Win 10.  If software breaks when you do a *minor* OS version update (and the difference between Vista and anything later is minor), then the software was making unusual demands in the first place.



#28 rgsalinger

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 11:02 PM

I've been running the windows 10 technical insider release for about 3 months now. I use a number of astronomy programs with no problems - specifically the SKYX, MAXIMDL, and CCDInspetor. I have that Ascom framework installed and can use the simulator for various programs but I have not connected my mount to it as yet. So far everything works perfectly except for Stellarium where the cursor becomes invisible. So I use Cartes du Ciel instead.

 

Under Windows update, advanced options you can "defer" updates if you want. I can't tell if "defer" means never. I also moved away from my earlier policy of not taking updates about a year ago and both my laptops, one on Win7 and one on Win8 drive both of my mounts with no problems at all that I have detected. 

 

Rgrds-Ross


Edited by rgsalinger, 06 July 2015 - 11:18 PM.


#29 Hilmi

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 12:25 AM

Just turn off updates!


That won't be possible on Windows 10

#30 rgsalinger

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 11:39 AM

I think that there must have been something that happened way back in the day to a bunch of people with regards to Windows updates that makes this a hot topic. I've not seen yet a post that tells me what update caused them a problem. One thing that's in Windows 10 is that you can schedule when you want an update to happen. I can tell you from experience that if you are using the computer you will get a notification from Win 10 and you can re-schedule it. There's also that defer option that I referred to which is definitely present. Now people may have lots of other software on their machines and those updates may cause problems but I'm dubious about Windows 7/8/10 causing problems and would like to hear from someone who's actually had them. If you're really concerned about un-attended computers updating in the middle of the night, just turn off the Windows updating service.

Rgrds-Ross



#31 jackofalltrades

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 11:53 AM

There have been instances with MS where they've pushed out an update that they later came out and said it's bad and had to fix.  I've personally had several times where due to poor wireless connection, I had a bad WindowsUpdate session and had to rebuild from scratch - several tries.  My biggest complaint over that was that I was trying to build a brand new computer and was in the process of updating Windows, only to have them fail or partially install because MS was doing it in the background.  It neither told me it was installing anything to let me know I didn't need to install it, nor did it turn off that update process seeing I was doing it manually.

 

My bigger issue with Automatic Updates with Windows, is that, like Android, you never know what kind of adware/spyware or just junk programs they're going to package and going to push out to you next; one of the MAIN reasons I got rid of Android.  I couldn't stand the junk they kept forcing on the phone and user, doing nothing but taking up space and memory, with no way to uninstall unless you breech your contract and root.  And sometimes those updates and programs will reset your default settings.  Am I saying Mac and Linux are immune to this?  No, they're guilty too, but at least they do things in an unobtrusive way, and if you decide to do it manually, those OS's know to turn off and not run their automatic updates of the same thing.



#32 Goofi

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 01:44 PM

Ross, I don't use Win10 right now ... I only know what I've read from reviewers and MS press releases.  It seems with the Home version of Win10, updates happen automatically.  Since I'm using home version of Win7, my upgrade path is to the home version of Win10.  I have no direct experience and I hope what you are reporting is the way updates will work for me.  But right now all I've read is the updates will happen automatically and there is no way to turn them off.  Note: I've never seen anything pro/con about defering the update or scheduling the reboot.

 

My concern is that I don't know what's going on, but the reporting I've seen says (for probably good reasons) Microsoft is changing the update policy on some versions of Win10 so updates happen automatically and users are assured of the safest and most up-to-date version of the software.  The lack of clarity is of some concern, as is the loss of control over when the update happens.  My only recourse is to turn off wifi to prevent the update in the first place.



#33 mark77

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 02:21 PM

I am hoping that there will be more support on Linux. I am new to astronomy and just starting to get things set up. I hope to use Linux wherever I can and only use Windows if there is no other choice. In some cases I will simply write the software myself and make it open source.

 

Mark



#34 rgsalinger

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 02:39 PM

Well I always use the professional version, mostly in the past to get the remote desktop to work. Regardless of version, you can stop the service if you want to stop the updates. I also cannot believe that you can't as I do schedule them at times (maybe noon on Sunday) when EVEN YOU :grin:  will not be imaging. Point me to an article that discusses this as I'd be interested in seeing what they're saying about the different versions.

 

As far as linux is concerned, I guess that someday all the astronomy apps will be ported to some version of Java and we'll be much more OS independent but I would wonder how far that would go when it comes to drivers specific products.....? Personally I think that this free upgrade for windows will give Windows a boost.

 

Rgrds-Ross



#35 Goofi

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 03:24 PM

Hey Ross, remember .... I'm a little goofy   :lol:  and just might try imaging during the day.

 

Here's a reference article from last month on the issue: 

http://www.forbes.co...nd-windows-8/2/



#36 rgsalinger

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 04:46 PM

I went here - http://answers.micro...4d2adb3e?auth=1 - as I always prefer to talk to the horse rather than the horse's publicist. You are right that home users cannot refuse upgrades. However, they can schedule when they are actually downloaded and applied. That means that when Oprah is on (is she still alive?) TV you can have them installed  while you're watching the show.

 

I would also be surprised if you can just turn off the updating service, but they may have thought of that. If I had home, then I'd get rid of it for this if for no other reason. However, I can see that they just don't want most users who aren't computer savvy to decide how exposed they want to be particularly to security updates.

 

I really continue to see this as not important. The OS is so much better than Win8 that you'll prefer it. It boots so much faster than Win7 that you'll love it for those times the pesky usb->rs232 converter misbehaves.

 

Rgrds-Ross



#37 Goofi

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 05:34 PM

Ross, you have me laughing here for several reasons ...

 

Yes, I've heard it boots faster, thankfully since my computer/usb/serial don't always play well together.  

 

But, that article you linked to didn't really clear things up for me.  The first two answers state I will not be able to control updates"

 

 

If you have the Professional version you'll be able to.  Not for the home version.

 

 

 

Security Updates, Features and Fixes are automatically applied.
There is no option to delay or customize these updates.

 

The next post contradicts those - but doesn't state which version of Win10 it applies to while those two above both state they're for the Home edition.  I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just concerned.  I'm not going to dump windows because the software I image with is all windows based. I'm confident the software will work on the laptop after the upgrade ... I'm just wondering if my laptop will want to randomly reboot.

 

Now, if I could get the reboots to coincide with my USB/serial port conflict issues ... what a great feature that would be   :grin:



#38 jackofalltrades

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 07:11 PM

I really continue to see this as not important. The OS is so much better than Win8 that you'll prefer it. It boots so much faster than Win7 that you'll love it for those times the pesky usb->rs232 converter misbehaves.

 

Rgrds-Ross

I'm not sure I'd go that far.  I agree it's better than Win7, by a long shot, just like Win8.1 is far ahead of Win 7.  But from what I've seen so far using Win10, it can't touch Win8.1 with Classic Shell (and all metro apps uninstalled) and running from a local account; and yes, I've tried Win10 in the same configuration, minus Classic Shell.  No contest, Win8.1 is so much better, more stable and reliable, faster, and probably just as secure. 

 

I'll likely upgrade my old HP laptop running Win7, but it'll be a much tougher call at the moment whether or not I want to upgrade my VM running Win8.1.



#39 Michael Covington

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 07:44 PM

When I'm imaging I turn off the computer's network connection entirely so nothing will come along and slow it down.  Naturally, if you're remote-controlling your telescope over the network, you can't do that :)



#40 AstroEthan

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:34 PM

I dunno. It seems like many pieces of astronomy software are having a hard time getting past Windows XP trouble free.

 

Despite my annoyances with some programs not working with Windows 8 (I'm looking at you, JID!), I plan to upgrade to 10 as soon as I can.


Edited by AstroEthan, 07 July 2015 - 09:45 PM.


#41 AstroEthan

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:42 PM

 

Just turn off updates!


That won't be possible on Windows 10

 

 
You can enable the option in the Local Group Policy Editor.



#42 jackofalltrades

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:50 PM

Thanks for the link Ethan.  I just printed those instructions and will be sure to apply that to my systems.



#43 Michael Covington

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 10:51 PM

I dunno. It seems like many pieces of astronomy software are having a hard time getting past Windows XP trouble free.

 

Despite my annoyances with some programs not working with Windows 8 (I'm looking at you, JID!), I plan to upgrade to 10 as soon as I can.

 

XP to Vista was a big change that introduced new, UNIX-like security measures.  Vista to anything later is not much of a change.



#44 AstroEthan

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:10 AM

 

I dunno. It seems like many pieces of astronomy software are having a hard time getting past Windows XP trouble free.

 

Despite my annoyances with some programs not working with Windows 8 (I'm looking at you, JID!), I plan to upgrade to 10 as soon as I can.

 

XP to Vista was a big change that introduced new, UNIX-like security measures.  Vista to anything later is not much of a change.

 

 

It seems like anything that's not Firecapture, AutoStakkert, Registax, PHD, PIPP, ASCOM or commercially supported like Nebulosity, Starry Night, or Pixinsight seems to not work properly on Windows 8, though between this post and that post, JID started to magically work again

 

I understand astronomy hardware manufacturers are not supposed to be top notch software developers, but when the default capturing program for my SX constantly crashes at the click of any button and the Microtouch Autofocus's update software nearly permanently bricked my control box for no reason, then there needs to be major rewrites to the software.



#45 Whichwayisnorth

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:49 AM

WinX is not going to force auto reboots the way you think. Microsoft can't do it.  A huge customer is business and a bank can't have things reboot in the middle of a transaction.  There are a great many businesses that simply can not use a software that will disrupt business and they will not take that risk.  So if Microsoft wants to sell to more than the casual end user who is browsing Reddit all day, they are going to offer a way to postpone updates and reboots.

 

OR 

 

They have a way to download and install updates transparently without effecting any applications currently running.



#46 trevize

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 07:07 AM

 

There are a great many businesses that simply can not use a software that will disrupt business and they will not take that risk.

 

 

Hence why where I work we use Solaris and Linux for servers and OS X for people's workstations.  



#47 rgsalinger

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 07:23 AM

There's a special version of Win10 - Enterprise - which avoids the reboot problem for large users. For smaller companies, just run Pro and you are good. If there's someone out there with a business who's running Home, all that has to be done is to specify the time and date of the week when the updates get applied. I'm sure that there's an edge case somewhere and for that you can disable the update service, as far as I can determine, if you want to. So, I really don't see this as posing a problem for anyone.

 

As far as "stability" is concerned, all I can say is that as an old retired dude I use my computer a lot during the day and I run quite a few different programs. I'm not a developer in any way shape or form, these days, so I have no idea of how any of the modern dev tools might run. All I can tell you is that it runs all the astro software that I own with no problems. I'm trying to remember if I've ever even had a crash and honestly I don't think I've had a single one in almost three months. The only thing I have not done yet is actually image with it. I am planning to re-build an old computer I have this week and will probably give that a try over the weekend. (If only I can get MaximDL to talk to the SKYX and run my Mach1 mount.)

 

Since I rarely use much free stuff (PHD for example) - just MaximDL, SKYX, CCDInspector and Focusmax, it's probably not the best test that you could run. I was particularly surprised at the fact that everything from Photoshop to my Total War games ran with no problems I had to do a really easy registry hack to get Teamviewer working but that was it. Stellarium has a problem with losing the cursor but that may have something to do my specific configuration.

 

As far as the UI is concerned, I am actually starting to prefer what I think they call the Icon Screen over my old desktop. The large rectangular blocks somehow make it easier to find things that I run frequently. Time will tell on that and certainly others may disagree. I'd advise anyone who's interested and has an old computer with a Home version on it that's not doing much to get the technical preview. (I don't think that they're picky.)

 

Rgrds-Ross


Edited by rgsalinger, 08 July 2015 - 07:24 AM.


#48 jackofalltrades

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:02 AM

That's just what I was going to mention Ross. If you're in a business environment and running either Enterprise or Professional, your updates will be served and controlled in-house through a SUS Server service and workstations configured through Site Policy and Domain GPO.  It's the home users who will have to modify their local GPO to allow control of updates.



#49 CHAPSKINS

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 06:43 AM

I do hope that this incarnation of Windows backdoor malware is a complete catasrophe which has a dominoes effect which, slowly and surely sees Microsoft wares get dropped piece by piece.

 

Windows is utterly woeful. Its like something from the 70's, like com ports, ****?



#50 Hilmi

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:36 AM

I do hope that this incarnation of Windows backdoor malware is a complete catasrophe which has a dominoes effect which, slowly and surely sees Microsoft wares get dropped piece by piece.

 

Windows is utterly woeful. Its like something from the 70's, like com ports, ****?

 

Now how is that supposed to inteligently contribute to our discussion? Did you see me bashing Macs when I started this topic? Windows is a great operating system, only thing is, it needs a user who actually knows not to fill their computer with junk in order to get the most out of it. For everybody else there is Macs, especially designed for people who have diffuclty learning how to use Windows properly or you have Linux for thos who insist on making life complicated as a matter of principle. The rest of us are using windows successfully with only a few relatively minor annoyances and the normal concerns that a new version of operating system might break some of our software. Don't claim Mac doesnt do that, I owned a power Mac back during the first major update of Mac OS X and all the software would refuse to work unless I paid to update to the new release of Mac OS X. I have also used Linux and I am not too impressed with the user interface. It is great for sys admins, not so great for the home user




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