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Atik Infinity -New camera for video astronomy

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#226 Relativist

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 10:18 PM


I normally shoot 30-60 sec. subs off my Sony A7 cameras and can post wirelessly to several online sites. I guess I could call it a "live view" device as well (and I used the A7S for such at outreach events)? Just saying that this is ATIK's first foray into this arena from a strictly imaging background and I think they'll come at it from a slightly different direction than the Mallincam's of the world.

bwa

We're off topic at this point, but do you have a link? I'm interested in your results with the A7s.
I got booted off the EAA site previously for talking about / showing aligned & stacked images. I'd prefer not to get everyone totally **** off at me again... But if you contact me offline I'll give you a link to my albums...

bwa

Herein lies the problem, we need to have andialog with the mods and yourself. The exclusionary practices of the past are not as prevelant but it's always a good idea to ask. Maybe start a seperate thread?

#227 bwallan

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 11:55 PM

 

I got booted off the EAA site previously for talking about / showing aligned & stacked images. I'd prefer not to get everyone totally **** off at me again... But if you contact me offline I'll give you a link to my albums...


bwa

Herein lies the problem, we need to have a dialog with the mods and yourself. The exclusionary practices of the past are not as prevalent but it's always a good idea to ask. Maybe start a separate thread?

 

I've followed EAA for a lot of years (and have used three Mallincam cameras along the way) and at one time it WAS truly video-astronomy with high sensitivity video cameras being used to capture a few reasonable frames.  Then internal alignment and stacking became the norm but with still quite short individual exposures, i.e.: 3-7 sec.  Now we're talking imaging cameras (the Universe and Infinity) with internal alignment & stacking using individual subs of 30-120 sec. as well as Sony's A7S (and other imaging cameras) crowding into what is still referred to as EAA...

 

I guess my question is, when do you want to start calling EAA what it has become, i.e.: imaging?!  It certainly is no longer my concept of EAA which by Cloudy Night's own definition is "Electronically Assisted Astronomy is the use of a digital image capturing device in lieu of an eyepiece at the telescope."  I know of no eyepieces that take minutes to pass an image to your eye!

 

bwa


Edited by bwallan, 22 March 2016 - 11:57 PM.


#228 Relativist

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:42 AM

Tell us more about the A7s and what you can see at Maximum ISO. That's what we want to know, that said we already have seen it broadcast by Mark when he did 1 sec and under exposures and after a few stacks things cleared right up.

Significantly more capable than previous cameras with the right setup.

P.S. There is no need to speculate on how fast the infinity is, I've seen it used at f/2 and its able to get live views quickly, and they clean up only after a few stacks.

Edited by Relativist, 23 March 2016 - 01:44 AM.


#229 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 07:00 AM

 

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

Wow, you weren't just kidding about vignetting w/ your 0.33x reducer!  With the size of sensor in the Infinity I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem?  Could it be a spacing problem?  I know one can use reducers at quite a wide range of spacing to get different reduction and levels of vignetting.

 

bwa

 

I had set it up to save jpegs.  Next time out, I will save them as FITS and get you one  



#230 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 07:16 AM

 

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

Wow, you weren't just kidding about vignetting w/ your 0.33x reducer!  With the size of sensor in the Infinity I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem?  Could it be a spacing problem?  I know one can use reducers at quite a wide range of spacing to get different reduction and levels of vignetting.

 

bwa

 

Next time out, I am going to adjust the spacing to see what happens



#231 jimthompson

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 08:22 AM

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

 Wow Mike, that surely is a lot of vignetting!  I am surprised actually that it is that pronounced.  I have used the Meade 3.3 with a 13mm sensor and the vignetting was not that pronounced.  How do you have the camera connected with the focal reducer, and focal reducer to telescope?

 

regards,

 

Jim T.



#232 Astrojedi

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:02 AM

 

 

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

Wow, you weren't just kidding about vignetting w/ your 0.33x reducer!  With the size of sensor in the Infinity I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem?  Could it be a spacing problem?  I know one can use reducers at quite a wide range of spacing to get different reduction and levels of vignetting.

 

bwa

 

Next time out, I am going to adjust the spacing to see what happens

 

 

Mike,

I would step it down to about F4.5 - F5. That should help quite a bit. Given the sensitivity of the mono sensor you should still be ok with regards to acquisition speed.

 

Hiten



#233 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:11 PM

 

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

 Wow Mike, that surely is a lot of vignetting!  I am surprised actually that it is that pronounced.  I have used the Meade 3.3 with a 13mm sensor and the vignetting was not that pronounced.  How do you have the camera connected with the focal reducer, and focal reducer to telescope?

 

regards,

 

Jim T.

 

Thanks Jim for asking.  I have the Meade reducer screwed on to the back of the SCT.  I then have a Baader click-lock visual back screwed onto the reducer.  I insert a 1.25 step down adapter in the Baader and then slide the camera right into that



#234 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:14 PM

 

 

 

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

Wow, you weren't just kidding about vignetting w/ your 0.33x reducer!  With the size of sensor in the Infinity I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem?  Could it be a spacing problem?  I know one can use reducers at quite a wide range of spacing to get different reduction and levels of vignetting.

 

bwa

 

Next time out, I am going to adjust the spacing to see what happens

 

 

Mike,

I would step it down to about F4.5 - F5. That should help quite a bit. Given the sensitivity of the mono sensor you should still be ok with regards to acquisition speed.

 

Hiten

 

I can try that.  I just like the FOV the 3.3 gives me.  I am also going to try my F6.3 reducer next time I am out.  My Meade is one of the Chinese ones, so maybe it is one of the bad ones



#235 jimthompson

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:41 PM

Hi Mike,

 

It is hard to tell from the photos online but what is the interface on the camera itself?  It looks like you have the option of using a C-thread or a T-thread.  Is that correct?  If that is the case, I would recommend you try getting a T-to-2" adapter that you can insert directly into your click-lock.  It may be the 1.25" nosepiece you are using that is causing or at least worsening the vignetting.  When I use my Meade 3.3 I always connect the camera to it via T-thread or 2" thread adapter...never 1.25".

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.



#236 DonBoy

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:49 PM

Mike, the Meade 3.3 FR was designed for 1/3" chips that were in use way back when this FR was introduced.  This situation has been faced by almost everyone who has bought this FR or has researched it.  It just isn't qoing to work at .33x focal reduction on a sensor that has a 11.2mm image circle; a 1/3" sensor has a 6mm image circle.   Besides vignetting you will have coma (stars looking like birds) just past the vignetted areas. The only way to use this FR for larger than 6mm image circles is to use it with less spacing which will reduce the vignetting and the coma, but yield less focal reduction.

 

You could try the Antares .5x FR at it's recommended spacing if it's the 1.25" model.  You may be able to get the 2" version to work at greater spacing and this may yield an f ratio of 3.8 - 4.2 without too much degradation; I hope to try this approach myself.  I know the Antares .5x 1.25" worked fairly well with the Atik 414 when I had it on loan.  I also have an Optec .33x which I'm hoping will work with the 825 sensor, it will most likely have vignetting but hoping that there will be minimal coma.  The Optec .33x doesn't allow for much wiggle room for spacing and reducing the spacing some may be an option. 

 

As we all transition to larger sensors we will have to face these issues, either we will use current FRs  that yield compromised images or slower focal reduction like an .63x-.8x or goto astrograph type scopes ranging from HyperStars or Imaging Newts or fast Refractors.  It seems like it never ends, and the vendors keep smiling $$$$.  LOL


Edited by DonBoy, 23 March 2016 - 12:52 PM.

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#237 bwallan

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:02 PM

...

You could try the Antares .5x FR at it's recommended spacing if it's the 1.25" model.  You may be able to get the 2" version to work at greater spacing and this may yield an f ratio of 3.8 - 4.2 without too much degradation; I hope to try this approach myself.  I know the Antares .5x 1.25" worked fairly well with the Atik 414 when I had it on loan.  I also have an Optec .33x which I'm hoping will work with the 825 sensor, it will most likely have vignetting but hoping that there will be minimal coma.  The Optec .33x doesn't allow for much wiggle room for spacing and reducing the spacing some may be an option.

...

 

I've used the Antares 0.5x reducer with the ATIK 428Ex and it worked quite well.

 

bwa



#238 Don Rudny

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:18 PM

Mike, the Meade 3.3 FR was designed for 1/3" chips that were in use way back when this FR was introduced.  This situation has been faced by almost everyone who has bought this FR or has researched it.  It just isn't qoing to work at .33x focal reduction on a sensor that has a 11.2mm image circle; a 1/3" sensor has a 6mm image circle.   Besides vignetting you will have coma (stars looking like birds) just past the vignetted areas. The only way to use this FR for larger than 6mm image circles is to use it with less spacing which will reduce the vignetting and the coma, but yield less focal reduction.

 

You could try the Antares .5x FR at it's recommended spacing if it's the 1.25" model.  You may be able to get the 2" version to work at greater spacing and this may yield an f ratio of 3.8 - 4.2 without too much degradation; I hope to try this approach myself.  I know the Antares .5x 1.25" worked fairly well with the Atik 414 when I had it on loan.  I also have an Optec .33x which I'm hoping will work with the 825 sensor, it will most likely have vignetting but hoping that there will be minimal coma.  The Optec .33x doesn't allow for much wiggle room for spacing and reducing the spacing some may be an option. 

 

As we all transition to larger sensors we will have to face these issues, either we will use current FRs  that yield compromised images or slower focal reduction like an .63x-.8x or goto astrograph type scopes ranging from HyperStars or Imaging Newts or fast Refractors.  It seems like it never ends, and the vendors keep smiling $$$$.  LOL

Don,

 

You summarized the situation with FR's and larger sensors very well.  I have both a Meade 3.3 and Optec .33x.  When I use my Ultrastar, I have to space the Optec to give .45x.  Otherwise, I get both vignetting and corner coma.  The advertising on the Optec varies from 9mm to 11mm corrected field.  I suspect it's more like 9mm.  I believe Hiten (Astrojedi) has found the same thing.  

 

I find that Hyperstar is the best solution for the 825 sensor.  Unfortunately, to change focal length and image scale, you need a different scope.  6" and HS is 290mm.  14" is 684mm.  As you wrote, $$$$.


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#239 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:26 PM

Mike, the Meade 3.3 FR was designed for 1/3" chips that were in use way back when this FR was introduced.  This situation has been faced by almost everyone who has bought this FR or has researched it.  It just isn't qoing to work at .33x focal reduction on a sensor that has a 11.2mm image circle; a 1/3" sensor has a 6mm image circle.   Besides vignetting you will have coma (stars looking like birds) just past the vignetted areas. The only way to use this FR for larger than 6mm image circles is to use it with less spacing which will reduce the vignetting and the coma, but yield less focal reduction.

 

You could try the Antares .5x FR at it's recommended spacing if it's the 1.25" model.  You may be able to get the 2" version to work at greater spacing and this may yield an f ratio of 3.8 - 4.2 without too much degradation; I hope to try this approach myself.  I know the Antares .5x 1.25" worked fairly well with the Atik 414 when I had it on loan.  I also have an Optec .33x which I'm hoping will work with the 825 sensor, it will most likely have vignetting but hoping that there will be minimal coma.  The Optec .33x doesn't allow for much wiggle room for spacing and reducing the spacing some may be an option. 

 

As we all transition to larger sensors we will have to face these issues, either we will use current FRs  that yield compromised images or slower focal reduction like an .63x-.8x or goto astrograph type scopes ranging from HyperStars or Imaging Newts or fast Refractors.  It seems like it never ends, and the vendors keep smiling $$$$.  LOL

That is what I was suspecting, and it sounds like the optec will have some issues with the 11.2 image circle as well.  I will look at the Antares version and maybe give it a try.  I have emails into both Atik and Optec, but neither has responded.  They are probably scratching their heads



#240 DonBoy

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:36 PM

Mike,

 

I already conversed with Optec about this and they emailed me and claim that it should work.  I have my doubts.

 

Here is their response:-

 

Hi Don,

The back-focus for the Atik cameras is 13mm.  Both the Atik 414 and Infinity  have sensor diagonals of about 11mm meaning the NGM 0.33X would work assuming your C8 is not the EdgeHD optics (which have coma corrector lenses in the baffle tube).

Let me know your full shipping information if you'd like a formal quotation. 

 

   Very best regards,

Jeff.


Edited by DonBoy, 23 March 2016 - 01:36 PM.


#241 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:40 PM

Hi Mike,

 

It is hard to tell from the photos online but what is the interface on the camera itself?  It looks like you have the option of using a C-thread or a T-thread.  Is that correct?  If that is the case, I would recommend you try getting a T-to-2" adapter that you can insert directly into your click-lock.  It may be the 1.25" nosepiece you are using that is causing or at least worsening the vignetting.  When I use my Meade 3.3 I always connect the camera to it via T-thread or 2" thread adapter...never 1.25".

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.

It might be worth a try.  The Infinity camera came with the 1.25 nose piece.  It does unscrew.  I need to find out what thread it is.



#242 Astrojedi

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:41 PM

Mike,

the camera has a standard T thread.

 

You don't need to spend money on a new FR if you want to run the system at F4.5-F5 (which I recommend for the mono sensor especially when using x2 bin). With the correct spacing the Meade 3.3 works very well at F4.5-F5. This is how I used the Infinity with my Meade 3.3.

 

This calculator will tell you the exact spacing you need. http://www.wilmslowa...rmulae.htm#FR_b

 

Hiten


Edited by Astrojedi, 23 March 2016 - 01:50 PM.

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#243 bwallan

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:41 PM

Tell us more about the A7s and what you can see at Maximum ISO. That's what we want to know, that said we already have seen it broadcast by Mark when he did 1 sec and under exposures and after a few stacks things cleared right up.

Significantly more capable than previous cameras with the right setup.

P.S. There is no need to speculate on how fast the infinity is, I've seen it used at f/2 and its able to get live views quickly, and they clean up only after a few stacks.

The A7S has been the most sensitive camera with the best image quality of any that I've tried todate, and that includes the Mallincam Xtreme and Universe.  If I'm doing an outreach session I normally shoot 15-30 sec. subs at ISO 12800-51200, which has been more than adequate to capture something recognizable.  As primarily an astro-imager I wouldn't normally show anything of this poor image quality to people but for public outreach it works...  For normal imaging I don't use any of the camera's noise reduction features; however, for public outreach I turn on High ISO Noise Reduction and often use shorter exposures with Multi-Frame Noise Reduction (MFNR shoots four subs, aligns and stacks them to yield one image; really does improve the image quality).

 

The max. extended ISO on the A7S is 409600.  At this ISO you can "see in dark" but the image quality is the pits.  The highest ISO I'll use is 102400 for any type of acceptable image or video frame.

 

Album: https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink shows some image and video frame examples at various ISO's all the way up to 409600.  When you click on an image the "full details page" link on the right provides access to the EXIF data associated with the image; however, PICASA only displays a max. ISO of 65535.

 

Be warned.  The above album does include some externally aligned and stacked images.


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#244 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 02:14 PM

Mike,

the camera has a standard T thread.

 

You don't need to spend money on a new FR if you want to run the system at F4.5-F5 (which I recommend for the mono sensor especially when using x2 bin). With the correct spacing the Meade 3.3 works very well at F4.5-F5. This is how I used the Infinity with my Meade 3.3.

 

This calculator will tell you the exact spacing you need. http://www.wilmslowa...rmulae.htm#FR_b

 

Hiten

Ok, I am little new to this.  I set my scope to C11 and the Meade 3.3 reducer, but not sure what this is telling me



#245 DonBoy

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 02:22 PM

Mike,

 

The Meade 3.3 comes with a SCT to T- thread adapter and two T-thread extensions.  Remove the T-thread to 1.25" adapter from the Infinity and you will be using the adapters that came with the Meade FR.  Attach your FR to scope and then the SCT to T-thread adapter to the FR and the longer of the two extensions and then screw this into the Infinity.   This will give you a reduced focal reduction but improve the image and reduce the coma and vignetting.


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#246 Astrojedi

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:11 PM

 

Mike,

the camera has a standard T thread.

 

You don't need to spend money on a new FR if you want to run the system at F4.5-F5 (which I recommend for the mono sensor especially when using x2 bin). With the correct spacing the Meade 3.3 works very well at F4.5-F5. This is how I used the Infinity with my Meade 3.3.

 

This calculator will tell you the exact spacing you need. http://www.wilmslowa...rmulae.htm#FR_b

 

Hiten

Ok, I am little new to this.  I set my scope to C11 and the Meade 3.3 reducer, but not sure what this is telling me

 

 

Mike,

 

Sorry for not being clear. Don beat me to it. Do what Don said and use a spacing of 45mm to get to F5.

 

Keep in mind that 45mm is total spacing. So using the meade 30mm spacer should be sufficient as the camera has a back focus of ~12.5mm

 

-Hiten

 

Clipboard01.jpg


Edited by Astrojedi, 23 March 2016 - 03:13 PM.


#247 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:50 PM

Mike,

 

The Meade 3.3 comes with a SCT to T- thread adapter and two T-thread extensions.  Remove the T-thread to 1.25" adapter from the Infinity and you will be using the adapters that came with the Meade FR.  Attach your FR to scope and then the SCT to T-thread adapter to the FR and the longer of the two extensions and then screw this into the Infinity.   This will give you a reduced focal reduction but improve the image and reduce the coma and vignetting.

I like this idea, but then you can't use 1.25 or 2 inch filters right?



#248 jimthompson

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:58 PM

 

Mike,

 

The Meade 3.3 comes with a SCT to T- thread adapter and two T-thread extensions.  Remove the T-thread to 1.25" adapter from the Infinity and you will be using the adapters that came with the Meade FR.  Attach your FR to scope and then the SCT to T-thread adapter to the FR and the longer of the two extensions and then screw this into the Infinity.   This will give you a reduced focal reduction but improve the image and reduce the coma and vignetting.

I like this idea, but then you can't use 1.25 or 2 inch filters right?

 

Correct.  That is why I prefer to use a T-to-2" nosepiece that you can insert into your normal visual back.  You can then put a 2" filter on the end of it if needed.  Another option is a more convoluted combination of adapters:

 

= camera + T-thread spacer (as req'd) + T-to-2" adapter + 2" filter + 2"-to-SCT adapter + Meade FR

 

An advantage of going with all threaded connections instead of thumbscrews is you get better alignment of the camera with the telescope axis.  Your click-lock visual back is giving you this same advantage of good alignment.  I purchased all the req'd adapters from AgenaAstro.com.

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.


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#249 StarMike8SE

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:59 PM

 

 

Mike,

the camera has a standard T thread.

 

You don't need to spend money on a new FR if you want to run the system at F4.5-F5 (which I recommend for the mono sensor especially when using x2 bin). With the correct spacing the Meade 3.3 works very well at F4.5-F5. This is how I used the Infinity with my Meade 3.3.

 

This calculator will tell you the exact spacing you need. http://www.wilmslowa...rmulae.htm#FR_b

 

Hiten

Ok, I am little new to this.  I set my scope to C11 and the Meade 3.3 reducer, but not sure what this is telling me

 

 

Mike,

 

Sorry for not being clear. Don beat me to it. Do what Don said and use a spacing of 45mm to get to F5.

 

Keep in mind that 45mm is total spacing. So using the meade 30mm spacer should be sufficient as the camera has a back focus of ~12.5mm

 

-Hiten

 

attachicon.gifClipboard01.jpg

 

I got my Meade 3.3 used, so it came with no after or spacers.  I will search online



#250 Astrojedi

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 04:00 PM

 

Mike,

 

The Meade 3.3 comes with a SCT to T- thread adapter and two T-thread extensions.  Remove the T-thread to 1.25" adapter from the Infinity and you will be using the adapters that came with the Meade FR.  Attach your FR to scope and then the SCT to T-thread adapter to the FR and the longer of the two extensions and then screw this into the Infinity.   This will give you a reduced focal reduction but improve the image and reduce the coma and vignetting.

I like this idea, but then you can't use 1.25 or 2 inch filters right?

 

 

You can still use 1.25 filters with the right T thread adapter. I use this one which is the thinnest adapter I found. It adds only 2mm to the optical path.

 

http://agenaastro.co...apter-t-10.html


Edited by Astrojedi, 23 March 2016 - 04:00 PM.



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