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Atik Infinity -New camera for video astronomy

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#26 mclewis1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 12:21 PM

An early test image without a lot of details so we'll have to be careful in reading too much into it, but ...

 

Yes, also from looking at the resolution in the stars I'd say it's binned. Even binned you still have that nice wider fov from the larger chip (I think the numbers say about 50% more in linear size than the 829).

 

I'd gladly give up a little sensitivity and use 5-10s exposures and stacking for the increase in resolution ... but it's sure nice to have the option.

 

It is however a very impressive image for what appears to be stacked 1 second exposures (I wonder how many in the continuous stack). From where the histogram black and white levels are set there is also a pretty severe stretch of the image to bring out those details - which explains the brighter background and the amount of the galaxy seen. 

 

With a little vignetting seen I'd guess there's also a focal reducer involved, the image looks to be taken at around 1000mm. As we've discussed many times before the use of a focal reducer will be one of the things to be careful of with a larger size sensor. A setup that works well on 1/3 or 1/2" sensors may start to be a issue on larger ones.

 

Background noise levels seem reasonable, but we are dealing with a very short exposure and a stacked image.

 

As always it will be fun to see additional images with more details, taken under different conditions with different scopes.


Edited by mclewis1, 31 July 2015 - 12:34 PM.


#27 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 12:50 PM

 

With a little vignetting seen I'd guess there's also a focal reducer involved, the image looks to be taken at around 1000mm. As we've discussed many times before the use of a focal reducer will be one of the things to be careful of with a larger size sensor. A setup that works well on 1/3 or 1/2" sensors may start to be a issue on larger ones.

When I ran my 2 night EAA test of the Atik414EX color I was using an Antares .5x 1.25" FR with my C8 and an Idas LPS P2.  Any effects of the focal reducer would be present in the unprocessed images I captured off my desktop screen and the effects of focal reduction would most likely be the same if they set the sensor at the same depth in the housing.

 

https://www.flickr.c...157654256664726

 

By the way I also have an Atik .5x 1.25" focal reducer that I never tried with the 414 to see if made any difference.  The reason I didn't use it is that the Antares is better with my MallinCam X2 and I figured it would also be better with the 414, but I should have tried it to prove the point.


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#28 Relativist

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:14 PM

Nice examples Don. It should also be mentioned again that the 414 you used is cooled.

In all cases, I am still uncertain if foregoing cooling is worth it. Maybe if it were optional, for those of us that like to push cameras.

#29 mclewis1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:24 PM

Don,

 

Love your gallery. 

 

The vignetting in your images seems just a little bit more pronounced than in the Infinity test image. I have a feeling that there will be some variability in where the focal reducers are positioned.

 

From the images the Infinity appears to use a similar 60mm and T thread "nose piece" as the 414EX?

 

Does the 1.25" adapter included with the 414EX thread into those T threads?



#30 mclewis1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:35 PM

Nice examples Don. It should also be mentioned again that the 414 you used is cooled.
In all cases, I am still uncertain if foregoing cooling is worth it. Maybe if it were optional, for those of us that like to push cameras.

Curtis,

 

It's going to be an interesting trade off.

 

No cooling means lower costs (and presumably lower end use prices) and that should mean more projected to be sold (also keeping the prices down). But it also means that the camera may not appeal to some folks who like you said like to push their cameras.

 

The SkyRaider DS with the DFC function seems to offer the ability (at least with the mono models) to work in the many 10s of seconds to multi minute area and that puts some pressure on the high end Mallincam video cameras. Certainly the lower price point of the DS gets folks interested in trying it as a replacement for some of the high end video camera's capabilities.

 

It will be interesting to see if the Infinity is similar in that regard.



#31 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:36 PM

 

Does the 1.25" adapter included with the 414EX thread into those T threads?

Thanks Mark for the image comments.

 

I had the 414 on loan and it is no longer in my possession, but from what I remember the 1.25" nose piece threaded into the M42 threads. 

 

I remember thinking about using a 2" Antares .5x focal reducer for this larger sensor with the hopes that it would be a better match.  


Edited by DonBoy, 31 July 2015 - 01:38 PM.


#32 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:42 PM

 

What were the exposure times on those pics?  Were they stacked?

Charles, when you click on each thumbnail image the times and number of stacks will be indicated just below the image to the left.



#33 mclewis1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:44 PM

I remember thinking about using a 2" Antares .5x focal reducer for this larger sensor with the hopes that it would be a better match.  

Don, That's where I was going too when I looked at the nosepiece images. I have a nice 2" to male T thread adapter that looks like it will provide just about perfect spacing for the 2" Antares reducer with the Atik cameras.



#34 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:45 PM

Curtis,

 

I suspect that dimmer objects will be a challenge and that in order to keep overall exposure time down more stretching will be needed and that causes noise.  Longer exposures and more stacks would be one way to counter act that and also cooling. 

 

And knowing the astro community there will be people like myself that would want the most from our captures and thus would want a cooling option.



#35 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:52 PM

 

DonBoy, on 31 Jul 2015 - 2:36 PM, said:

    I remember thinking about using a 2" Antares .5x focal reducer for this larger sensor with the hopes that it would be a better match. 

Don,
That's where I was going too when I looked at the nosepiece images. I have a nice 2" to male T thread adapter that looks like it will provide just about perfect spacing for the 2" Antares reducer with the Atik cameras.

    Like This

Mark

It's too bad that I didn't have more time to make more tests.  When I was done the two night tests the moon became an issue and I would have had to hold on to the camera for two more weeks before I could have imaged DSOs effectively again.   I would liked to have tried it out binned to see how it did, and also to have tried other focal reduction options.


Edited by DonBoy, 31 July 2015 - 01:53 PM.


#36 Don Rudny

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:52 PM

Don,

 

I agree.  I was disappointed to see no cooling, but you still need a 12v connection.  My understanding of the 414 is that no darks are necessary even for longer exposures.  The cooling real works.  Hope they make it an option.

 

Does anyone know why they still need the 12v connection?

 

Don



#37 mclewis1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:54 PM

12v power requirement ...

 

I'm kind of surprised to see the statement on the Atik website that the Infinity uses both a USB and a 12v DC power connection. I guess it's not really a big deal as most folks already have 12v available (and certainly anyone already using a "real" video camera). I assume that since it's not going to be powering a TEC that the amperage requirements will be very low (I'd guess in the few hundred milliamp range).

 

It will be something the competition will point out (extra complexity, etc.), but I think it could also be spun as a benefit. Taking the load off of the USB cable and port likely means better compatibility with lighter and more flexible USB cables and less of a concern with laptops that often power down their USB ports.

 

It also shouldn't be a big deal to tie wrap a light gauge DC power cable alongside the USB cable to keep things all neat and tidy ... something some of us already do with the video signal and serial camera control cables.


Edited by mclewis1, 31 July 2015 - 01:57 PM.


#38 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 02:02 PM

Here's an email I just received today from Atik.

Screen Shot 2015-07-31 at 2.58.59 PM.png



#39 DonBoy

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 02:04 PM

 

Does anyone know why they still need the 12v connection?

It could possibly be needed for a fan to provide some cooling.



#40 Relativist

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:06 PM

Don, that's an interesting statement Atik made about their cooled 414 camera. It would be nice if they had software for it that allowed for easy EAA use and also additional features like access to the gain setting of the ADC chip if there is such a setting available.

#41 StarMike8SE

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 07:25 PM

Maybe the other companies are seeing that video astronomy can sell bringing more competition to the market


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#42 mclewis1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 08:22 PM

We can only hope so.



#43 Dom543

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 10:10 PM

The Infinity seems to relate to the 414ex as the MC Jr Pro relates to the Xtreme.

Hopefully Atik will follow Rocks example when pricing the 414jr in relation to the ex.

 

Clear Skies!

--Dom


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#44 Alex Parker

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 10:59 PM

this does look, as was noted before, exactly like an Atik version of the Lodestar/LL dyad.  Not "video" at all but rather the modern approach of live stacking short CCD exposures.  It will be really neat if the software they release is compatible with the entire Atik product line. And very nice that they are offering a mono version.  I wonder about the form factor, though, and whether it will be too wide to work well with a small Hyperstar SCT.  also hoping they will develop the software for Mac... However it shakes out, I am going to have to get one!



#45 Don Rudny

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:33 PM

Alex,

 

Agree with you.  I am hoping, too, that the s/w is compatible with at least the 414EX.  Their note to Don implies that.  I really like the 414 for it's shape and the active cooling.  I think the 825 sensor and Hyperstar combo may be the near Holy Grail of EAA.  This LL like s/w finally makes it work.  If this cam prices out at near $1000, which I think it will, I would opt for the 414 if the s/w works.  Right now I'm looking at the SX825 with LL.

 

Don



#46 Alex Parker

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 07:13 AM

Alex,

 

Agree with you.  I am hoping, too, that the s/w is compatible with at least the 414EX.  Their note to Don implies that.  I really like the 414 for it's shape and the active cooling.  I think the 825 sensor and Hyperstar combo may be the near Holy Grail of EAA.  This LL like s/w finally makes it work.  If this cam prices out at near $1000, which I think it will, I would opt for the 414 if the s/w works.  Right now I'm looking at the SX825 with LL.

 

Don

Don,

 

I am very much looking forward to your report on the SX825 experiment.  It would be awesome to be able to use that larger chip for EAA.  I wonder if an email to SX about new product ideas would get some reaction, now that Atik has jumped in?

 

Alex



#47 Richard Whalen

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 08:34 AM

Alex,

 

Agree with you.  I am hoping, too, that the s/w is compatible with at least the 414EX.  Their note to Don implies that.  I really like the 414 for it's shape and the active cooling.  I think the 825 sensor and Hyperstar combo may be the near Holy Grail of EAA.  This LL like s/w finally makes it work.  If this cam prices out at near $1000, which I think it will, I would opt for the 414 if the s/w works.  Right now I'm looking at the SX825 with LL.

 

Don

Hi Don,

 

I'm holding off for a larger more sensitive chip. Something like 7.4mu pixels in a 3374x3374 array. One can dream......



#48 chasing photons

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 09:01 AM

No new information, but the Atik Facebook page kindly recognizes the Electronically Assisted Astronomy nomenclature.

 

 

"Meet the Infinity - the first Atik camera specifically designed and optimised for video and electronically assisted astronomy."

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/atikcameras



#49 Dragon Man

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 01:23 PM

No new information, but the Atik Facebook page kindly recognizes the Electronically Assisted Astronomy nomenclature.

 

 

"Meet the Infinity - the first Atik camera specifically designed and optimised for video and electronically assisted astronomy."

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/atikcameras

"video and electronically assisted astronomy" or 'V&EAA'

 

That was the Original name of this section of CN, but someone at the top decided it wasn't correct.

Now it's more confusing than ever.



#50 Raginar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 08:14 PM

Why is the EAA forum the only one people take such sharp positions on things? He only got a flyer in the email and let everyone know. He didn't get a pre production unit and review it or something

Yeesh.
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