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Atik Infinity -New camera for video astronomy

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#51 chasing photons

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Posted 05 August 2015 - 04:54 PM

On the Atik Facebook page they released a 15 minute video of live operation of the Atik Infinity mono camera.  They try it on several DSOs and the highest exposure was 5 seconds (I kept talking to the monitor asking for longer exposures).  They used 2 x 2 binning on all but one object and also showed how the noise decreased when stacking was activated.  At the end they describe the operating conditions and show the telescope setup.  Focal ratio was a slow f/8.  The shallow depth of the camera is probably intended to allow for clearance for fork mounted telescopes.  They were using an earlier version of the software.  Not bad for first light and they promise more videos to come.  I think they wanted to demonstrate the camera's performance with short exposures using a low cost tracking alt-az mount.  I wanted to post this ASAP so I will let you watch the video a few times to get all of the details. 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/atikcameras

 

 

The video is also on youtube and Atik's web site.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=JheW2PHKwcY


Edited by chasing photons, 05 August 2015 - 05:27 PM.

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#52 mclewis1

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Posted 05 August 2015 - 06:07 PM

Thanks Todd, That's a very neat video. 

 

For a setup running at f8 the sensitivity was impressive but the bigger deal for me is how the software operates.



#53 DonBoy

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Posted 05 August 2015 - 07:29 PM

Having watched the video one could play a numbers game and estimate that at full resolution with this mono Infinity they would need 4 times the 2x2 binned exposures.  So 14sec to 20sec for unbinned.  And guessing for color maybe 30% more so an estimate of 18sec-26sec for the color sensor.

 

I think in use one will take much longer exposures and I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers would double or triple.  Very much keyed on the software.


Edited by DonBoy, 05 August 2015 - 07:32 PM.


#54 David B in NM

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Posted 05 August 2015 - 07:43 PM

Don,

 

Your 4x is correct at the same F-ratio.  But IMHO one can cut a little more time off by reducing the FR. 

 

The youtube was shot at F8.  Captures would be quicker at F5 and under for 1x1 binning.

 

David B in NM


Edited by David B in NM, 05 August 2015 - 07:44 PM.


#55 Relativist

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Posted 05 August 2015 - 07:45 PM

Does anyone know if the software they are working on for the Infinity will also work with their cooled camera?

 

I'm still open to the 'no cooling required' concept, but that said if I'm going to pay a premium for a good sensor, I'd likely pay the extra for the cooling.



#56 Alex Parker

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Posted 05 August 2015 - 08:10 PM

Don,

Your 4x is correct at the same F-ratio. But IMHO one can cut a little more time off by reducing the FR.

The youtube was shot at F8. Captures would be quicker at F5 and under for 1x1 binning.

David B in NM


Captures can be almost arbitrarily short with stacking - really only limited by the time it takes for the software to stack each new image. I run 10 sec subs at 2000 mm FL with a Lodestar, and don't think that I would likely have to deviate from that with the new Atik (or the new SX Ultrastar).

#57 Roberti

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 07:30 AM

On the Atik Facebook page they released a 15 minute video of live operation of the Atik Infinity mono camera.  They try it on several DSOs and the highest exposure was 5 seconds (I kept talking to the monitor asking for longer exposures).  They used 2 x 2 binning on all but one object and also showed how the noise decreased when stacking was activated.  At the end they describe the operating conditions and show the telescope setup.  Focal ratio was a slow f/8.  The shallow depth of the camera is probably intended to allow for clearance for fork mounted telescopes.  They were using an earlier version of the software.  Not bad for first light and they promise more videos to come.  I think they wanted to demonstrate the camera's performance with short exposures using a low cost tracking alt-az mount.  I wanted to post this ASAP so I will let you watch the video a few times to get all of the details. 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/atikcameras

 

 

The video is also on youtube and Atik's web site.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=JheW2PHKwcY

 

Presumably the 2x2 binning results in a resolution similar to the Lodestar? Does anyone have any view on whether the Atik results at 2x2 were significantly better than a Lodestar using the same exposure and FR??

 

On a side note, I really enjoyed the video - I think this is a nice way to present a Live viewing session for others to share; ie: two observers discussing with each other what they are seeing and doing, and a bit of post editing to introduce the objects.

 

Rob


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#58 mclewis1

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 09:10 AM

On a side note, I really enjoyed the video - I think this is a nice way to present a Live viewing session for others to share; ie: two observers discussing with each other what they are seeing and doing, and a bit of post editing to introduce the objects. Rob

I agree Rob, I wish more vendors would take note of this and do the same sort of thing. This sort of nice, clean and "professional" (it's a relative thing) video is a good sales vehicle.

 

We know there have been edits but I think most of us trust the vendor that the real substance and accuracy of content has been maintained.


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#59 Dragon Man

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 09:44 AM

 

On a side note, I really enjoyed the video - I think this is a nice way to present a Live viewing session for others to share; ie: two observers discussing with each other what they are seeing and doing, and a bit of post editing to introduce the objects. Rob

I agree Rob, I wish more vendors would take note of this and do the same sort of thing. This sort of nice, clean and "professional" (it's a relative thing) video is a good sales vehicle.

 

We know there have been edits but I think most of us trust the vendor that the real substance and accuracy of content has been maintained.

 

Even the simple fact that it is Steve Chambers presenting the Video will help sales, and more people being brought over to Video Astronomy.

Steve has a huge following in the Webcam and 'simple camera' imaging and Webcam long exposure modification world.

I use his software 'Desire' when using my 'Steve Chambers' modified ToUcam.

 

Steve is also well respected as a pioneer in the QCUIAG field: https://groups.yahoo...ups/QCUIAG/info

 

And yes, I agree, that video is a great marketing tool.


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#60 bilgebay

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 01:11 PM

I'm afraid to talk here... but I will say it... I loved the video... 


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#61 Relativist

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 02:04 PM

Why should you be afraid to talk? please tell us what your opinion is!


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#62 DonBoy

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 02:39 PM

 

Roberti, on 06 Aug 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

    On a side note, I really enjoyed the video - I think this is a nice way to present a Live viewing session for others to share; ie: two observers discussing with each other what they are seeing and doing, and a bit of post editing to introduce the objects. Rob

I agree Rob, I wish more vendors would take note of this and do the same sort of thing. This sort of nice, clean and "professional" (it's a relative thing) video is a good sales vehicle.

Along this line of thinking; Rock Mallin has posted several videos on YouTube where he personally presents some of his product, his facilties and where and how things go together.

 

And you can find him often on NSN demoing his products in real time and fielding questions.


Edited by DonBoy, 08 August 2015 - 01:36 PM.

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#63 chasing photons

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:51 PM

Atik expects to release full specifications and pricing for the Infinity in September.


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#64 Spaced-out

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 05:07 PM

Roll on September!! 



#65 Relativist

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 01:04 AM

Does the Atik Infinity have adjustable gain? Couldn't tell from the video, but I thought it was mentioned.

#66 Dom543

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 04:03 PM

Presumably the 2x2 binning results in a resolution similar to the Lodestar? Does anyone have any view on whether the Atik results at 2x2 were significantly better than a Lodestar using the same exposure and FR??

Rob

Rob,

 

You are right, the ICX825 binned 2x2 yields a resolution very close to that of the Lodestar or other ICX829 sensor cameras. 

I don't see any reason for the image quality to be any better if the resolution is the same

Nytecam posted some 2x2 binned captures made with his Ultrastar over the weekend. I don't know, if they are on CN or on SGL.

 

I expect that significantly shorter exposures should be sufficient, as the area of a 2x2 binned 825 super pixel is more than twice as large as a single pixel of the 829.

 

Based on four nights of experimenting with the SX-825, my "honest best guess" estimate has been that, all other things equal, the unbinned 825 requires 1.6 longer exposures than the 829. This is equivalent to using 2/3 stop faster optics and this is how I reached the conclusion.

 

414ex, Infinity, Ultrastar and SX-825 all use the same ICX825 sensor and are made by experienced CCD camera makers, who know how to get the most out from a given sensor. I expect the four cameras to be indistinguishable by someone on my level of usage, as far as resolution and required exposure times go. I also expect the ATIK Infinity software to closely mimic LodestarLive.

 

Clear Skies!

--Dom


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#67 chasing photons

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 01:26 PM

Several color images produced by the Atik Infinity have been posted.

 

http://www.atik-came...-atik-infinity/

 

No technical information was included with the images, but they did describe features that they are working on.  One of these is broadcasting directly from the software.  Broadcasting doesn't interest me in the least, but I know many people here like to broadcast.  I am interested in the performance of the camera, so I want all of the technical details I can get... telescope, mount, focal ratio, exposure length, binning, color controls...

 

BTW, the color images look very nice.


Edited by chasing photons, 21 August 2015 - 01:33 PM.

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#68 nytecam

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 03:46 PM

Several color images produced by the Atik Infinity have been posted.

 

http://www.atik-came...-atik-infinity/

 

No technical information was included with the images, but they did describe features that they are working on.  One of these is broadcasting directly from the software.  Broadcasting doesn't interest me in the least, but I know many people here like to broadcast.  I am interested in the performance of the camera, so I want all of the technical details I can get... telescope, mount, focal ratio, exposure length, binning, color controls...

 

BTW, the color images look very nice.

Nice colour DSOs but exposures unquoted. The colour 825 sensor is RGBG eg absorbing more light than the

CYMG 829 sensor :-) 

 

Nytecam



#69 mclewis1

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 04:12 PM

From the M27 image it appears to have been taken at ~550mm focal length, and the optics have a secondary obstruction (spider or some other 8 point geometry in the optical path).

 

The stars are impressively round in the corners and the field is very flat. I'm going to guess this was done with a higher end scope (astrograph or flat field refractor) and not with a run of the mill scope and focal reducer combination.

 

Also impressive that we're seeing a color image, I thought we'd see some more b/w images first. I believe that's a volley into the SX court.

 

:gotpopcorn:


Edited by mclewis1, 21 August 2015 - 04:13 PM.


#70 jimthompson

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 09:49 PM

It is very interesting to see these new cameras coming out, and I look forward to seeing the results.  I am a little confused however...why are SX and Atik spending the effort developing a camera using a sensor that will no longer be made some time in 2016?  It seems to me that choosing to use the ICX825 is a bit of a dead end.  Why not develop a camera based on the latest technology, technology that is going to be available in the future and that is on the current path for further development.  Sony has publicly announced their stopping of CCD sensor production over the next couple of years, and their shift entirely over to CMOS.  Wouldn't it make more sense for camera manufacturers to do the same?  I know of some at least who are.

 

FWIW, I did have an opportunity to test out a camera using the ICX285 sensor (colour version).  I found it unusable for video astronomy due to it being terribly noisy.  For astrophotography I guess it could be passable, but certainly not for live viewing without stacking.  I would hope the ICX825 has dealt with this noise issue, otherwise it will be of limited use for (near) live viewing.

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.



#71 David B in NM

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 10:43 PM

Jim,

 

You're correct.  The production will stop in 2016.  However, Sony will stock and still ship them up to 2020. 

 

David B in NM



#72 Dom543

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 10:52 PM

Also impressive that we're seeing a color image, I thought we'd see some more b/w images first. I believe that's a volley into the SX court.

 

:gotpopcorn:

I am not member of the SX ball team but just happened to post a couple of images, including color ones, made with my SX-825.

They are on the gallery thread around here http://www.cloudynig...lery/?p=6744298.

 

Clear Skies and enjoy your popcorn!

--Dom


Edited by Dom543, 21 August 2015 - 10:57 PM.


#73 chasing photons

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 11:38 PM

It is very interesting to see these new cameras coming out, and I look forward to seeing the results.  I am a little confused however...why are SX and Atik spending the effort developing a camera using a sensor that will no longer be made some time in 2016?  It seems to me that choosing to use the ICX825 is a bit of a dead end.  Why not develop a camera based on the latest technology, technology that is going to be available in the future and that is on the current path for further development.  Sony has publicly announced their stopping of CCD sensor production over the next couple of years, and their shift entirely over to CMOS.  Wouldn't it make more sense for camera manufacturers to do the same?  I know of some at least who are.

 

FWIW, I did have an opportunity to test out a camera using the ICX285 sensor (colour version).  I found it unusable for video astronomy due to it being terribly noisy.  For astrophotography I guess it could be passable, but certainly not for live viewing without stacking.  I would hope the ICX825 has dealt with this noise issue, otherwise it will be of limited use for (near) live viewing.

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.

 

Jim,

 

You're correct.  The production will stop in 2016.  However, Sony will stock and still ship them up to 2020. 

 

David B in NM

 

 

Not that it is of any concern to SX, Atik or anyone else, the final production date for ICX825 appears to be 2017 and the final ship date for ICX825 blanket orders appears to be 2026.

 

https://www.framos.c...uation-Plan.pdf



#74 DonBoy

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 12:43 AM

 

FWIW, I did have an opportunity to test out a camera using the ICX285 sensor (colour version).  I found it unusable for video astronomy due to it being terribly noisy.  For astrophotography I guess it could be passable, but certainly not for live viewing without stacking.  I would hope the ICX825 has dealt with this noise issue, otherwise it will be of limited use for (near) live viewing.

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.

Jim it may be the camera you were using wasn't designed for astronomy.   From what I've seen from my use of the Atik414 and what I've seen from others using this camera clean non stacked images can be obtained if one uses it with faster scopes: thus hyperstar or those that can provide f2 or so and preferably a larger aperature for maintaing image size.  Granite with slower optics one needs to stack to obtain clean images but the cameras aren't very noisy.


Edited by DonBoy, 22 August 2015 - 12:44 AM.

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#75 chasing photons

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Posted 22 August 2015 - 01:45 PM

It seems to me that choosing to use the ICX825 is a bit of a dead end.  Why not develop a camera based on the latest technology, technology that is going to be available in the future and that is on the current path for further development.  Sony has publicly announced their stopping of CCD sensor production over the next couple of years, and their shift entirely over to CMOS.  Wouldn't it make more sense for camera manufacturers to do the same?  I know of some at least who are.

 

cheers,

 

Jim T.

 

Jim,

 

Did something change your mind over the last 5 months?

 

http://www.cloudynig...ment/?p=6475559

 

Or did you mean 5 months instead of 5 years for CMOS to catch up to CCD?   ;)




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