Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Atik Infinity -New camera for video astronomy

  • Please log in to reply
274 replies to this topic

#201 StarMike8SE

StarMike8SE

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Joined: 26 Mar 2014
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 22 March 2016 - 01:08 PM

 

...

The raw images are on my laptop and I will post some later today.  I did take one of the Orion nebula over to my other computer and processed it through StarTools.

...

 

Mike, can you upload a single sub of your Orion image so I can take a look at it. I'm really interested in what this camera can do!

 

I'd like to compare it to the output of the mono ATIK 428Ex which I own and like but the 428Ex is not that sensitive a camera...

 

bwa

 

P.S.:  I should not this camera might be a perfect match for the nine position filterwheel and RGB/narrowband filters I already use with the 428Ex.

 

When I get home tonight, I will upload what I have



#202 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 01:17 PM

 

I had a Mallincam Universe for about three months.  Not one of my favorite CCD's.  The worst amp glow of any camera I've ever owner!  But it did have pretty reasonable sensitivity.

 

bwa

 

 

Interesting.  What did you switch to, and how do you find it compares?

 

I use a mono ATIK 428Ex for narrowband imaging and full spectrum Sony A7S and A7R cameras and an unmodded Sony A7R II for imaging.  Based on the performance of Sony cameras I've sold all of my color CCD's (QHY8, QHY8 Pro, QHY9C and Universe).  The Sony's simply blow color CCD's out of the water!

 

I'm interested in the ATIK Infinity as a sensitive color CCD for quick and dirty shooting, sort of a replacement for the Universe...  I view ATIK's live stacking software as probably the real selling feature!

 

bwa



#203 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 01:35 PM

With the currently small EAA/live video market why would a vendor limit themselves by trying to push another camera (no matter how compelling) into just that limited space?

 

Atik knows the imaging market, it's comparatively large (larger than the EAA market) and they have an existing loyal customer base and the distribution channels in place. So what would make more sense than to introduce an exciting new option to those existing imagers? It's not easy to sell an imager two imaging cameras ... but how about a new camera that's a bit less expensive and extends the fun in a new fashion? That to me makes more sense for a company like Atik.

 

I do think there's a lot of untapped potential in the existing EAA/live video marketplace (but particularly at lower price points). I don't think the market for more expensive, bigger sensor, cooled cameras is that large (some but not a comparatively big opportunity).

 

As much as I like it and continue to use it I don't think there's much left in the high end ($1000+) analogue video segment for new customers ... that ship has sailed. Perhaps there's some life with the idea of digital video (HDMI) with a larger sensor but I personally see live digital video more as a useful add on feature (for enabling better - larger outreach displays) to an existing USB attached higher end camera and not as the primary output as it is with an analogue video camera.

 

I thought the new features in the Infinity software for video playback and to manipulate the live stack were really interesting. I can see folks having a lot of fun with them but I can also see the potential for deception in a live broadcasting environment. Aside from the nice easy to use user interface (big thumbs up for that) you can also clearly see Atik's penchant for tools to create the best looking image possible. I just wish they'd first concentrate on fast image display and ease of use (and release that) and then add the more imaging oriented features to the software. It would also be nice to know if they plan Infinity to support other perhaps lower priced cameras as well (not looking for Atik to announce another camera but I'd like to know if they are even considering that capability with the software).

I don't consider the Infinity to be an EAA camera.  It definitely is not a video camera like the Mallincam offerings.  It is an imaging camera which is ATIK's strength.

 

I would also like to see ATIK offer the Infinity software for use with their other cameras.  I'd be really interested to see how it works with my ATIK 428Ex?

 

bwa



#204 StarMike8SE

StarMike8SE

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Joined: 26 Mar 2014
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 22 March 2016 - 01:39 PM

 

With the currently small EAA/live video market why would a vendor limit themselves by trying to push another camera (no matter how compelling) into just that limited space?

 

Atik knows the imaging market, it's comparatively large (larger than the EAA market) and they have an existing loyal customer base and the distribution channels in place. So what would make more sense than to introduce an exciting new option to those existing imagers? It's not easy to sell an imager two imaging cameras ... but how about a new camera that's a bit less expensive and extends the fun in a new fashion? That to me makes more sense for a company like Atik.

 

I do think there's a lot of untapped potential in the existing EAA/live video marketplace (but particularly at lower price points). I don't think the market for more expensive, bigger sensor, cooled cameras is that large (some but not a comparatively big opportunity).

 

As much as I like it and continue to use it I don't think there's much left in the high end ($1000+) analogue video segment for new customers ... that ship has sailed. Perhaps there's some life with the idea of digital video (HDMI) with a larger sensor but I personally see live digital video more as a useful add on feature (for enabling better - larger outreach displays) to an existing USB attached higher end camera and not as the primary output as it is with an analogue video camera.

 

I thought the new features in the Infinity software for video playback and to manipulate the live stack were really interesting. I can see folks having a lot of fun with them but I can also see the potential for deception in a live broadcasting environment. Aside from the nice easy to use user interface (big thumbs up for that) you can also clearly see Atik's penchant for tools to create the best looking image possible. I just wish they'd first concentrate on fast image display and ease of use (and release that) and then add the more imaging oriented features to the software. It would also be nice to know if they plan Infinity to support other perhaps lower priced cameras as well (not looking for Atik to announce another camera but I'd like to know if they are even considering that capability with the software).

I don't consider the Infinity to be an EAA camera.  It definitely is not a video camera like the Mallincam offerings.  It is an imaging camera which is ATIK's strength.

 

I would also like to see ATIK offer the Infinity software for use with their other cameras.  I'd be really interested to see how it works with my ATIK 428Ex?

 

bwa

 

I would like to see that too.  Even the 414EX (same chip) with the cooler using the software would be real nice



#205 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 01:53 PM

Nice images Bob!

 

My on my fear is that if CN does, in fact, implement the 2 min max total limitation, then the only players remaining in the EAA field will be those with a Hyperstar. Even that might be questionable with a NB filter.

 

Clear Skies!

--Dom

Used to be "astro-video" was limited to about 7-10 secs.  Hard to believe we're now talking imaging exposures to be astro-video!?

 

And to think I was thrown out of the group for suggesting my 30 sec. images were not astro-video.  Yes, times do change!!

 

bwa



#206 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 01:59 PM

 

I had a Mallincam Universe for about three months.  Not one of my favorite CCD's.  The worst amp glow of any camera I've ever owner!  But it did have pretty reasonable sensitivity.

 

 

bwa

 

 

Yeah, amp-glow was a significant part of why I sold mine (and part of how I came to hate amp-glow).  But with good calibration frames and such you can get some really good images out of the thing.

 

I prefer not to shoot or use darks, flats or bias subs.  With modern cameras it should not be a requirement.

 

bwa



#207 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:07 PM

 

Mike, can you upload a single sub of your Orion image so I can take a look at it. I'm really interested in what this camera can do!


 

 

I'd like to compare it to the output of the mono ATIK 428Ex which I own and like but the 428Ex is not that sensitive a camera...

 

bwa

 

P.S.:  I should not this camera might be a perfect match for the nine position filterwheel and RGB/narrowband filters I already use with the 428Ex.

 

 

Hi bwa,

 

By your posts here it sounds like you are looking for a less expensive camera to do imaging with, not live observing.  Perhaps you are looking in the wrong forum.  If you want to image, you probably should buy an imaging camera not a camera purpose built for live observing.

 

Regards,

 

Jim T.

 

I already have lots of cameras for imaging with normal exposes.  I don't really view the Infinity as a live observing camera (and ATIK, deep down, probably doesn't either).  It is a normal uncooled imaging camera with some innovative live alignment/stacking software.  The software by itself makes it an interesting imaging camera to me for quick and dirty imaging, i.e.: off something like my Alt-Az Evolution mount using 10-30 sec. exposures.  I've owned several Mallincam cameras and never found one that produced reasonable image quality; the Infinity looks to have some potential...

 

bwa



#208 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:11 PM

 

 

With the currently small EAA/live video market why would a vendor limit themselves by trying to push another camera (no matter how compelling) into just that limited space?

 

Atik knows the imaging market, it's comparatively large (larger than the EAA market) and they have an existing loyal customer base and the distribution channels in place. So what would make more sense than to introduce an exciting new option to those existing imagers? It's not easy to sell an imager two imaging cameras ... but how about a new camera that's a bit less expensive and extends the fun in a new fashion? That to me makes more sense for a company like Atik.

 

I do think there's a lot of untapped potential in the existing EAA/live video marketplace (but particularly at lower price points). I don't think the market for more expensive, bigger sensor, cooled cameras is that large (some but not a comparatively big opportunity).

 

As much as I like it and continue to use it I don't think there's much left in the high end ($1000+) analogue video segment for new customers ... that ship has sailed. Perhaps there's some life with the idea of digital video (HDMI) with a larger sensor but I personally see live digital video more as a useful add on feature (for enabling better - larger outreach displays) to an existing USB attached higher end camera and not as the primary output as it is with an analogue video camera.

 

I thought the new features in the Infinity software for video playback and to manipulate the live stack were really interesting. I can see folks having a lot of fun with them but I can also see the potential for deception in a live broadcasting environment. Aside from the nice easy to use user interface (big thumbs up for that) you can also clearly see Atik's penchant for tools to create the best looking image possible. I just wish they'd first concentrate on fast image display and ease of use (and release that) and then add the more imaging oriented features to the software. It would also be nice to know if they plan Infinity to support other perhaps lower priced cameras as well (not looking for Atik to announce another camera but I'd like to know if they are even considering that capability with the software).

I don't consider the Infinity to be an EAA camera.  It definitely is not a video camera like the Mallincam offerings.  It is an imaging camera which is ATIK's strength.

 

I would also like to see ATIK offer the Infinity software for use with their other cameras.  I'd be really interested to see how it works with my ATIK 428Ex?

 

bwa

 

I would like to see that too.  Even the 414EX (same chip) with the cooler using the software would be real nice

 

I think ATIK might be a little reluctant to go that route but they might find it sells some of their other more expensive cameras?  I'm sure their marketing people are scratching their collective heads and crunching numbers...

 

bwa



#209 Relativist

Relativist

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8151
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2003
  • Loc: OC, CA, USA

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:12 PM

I'm really confused by what are you saying? Who in their right mind would make an imaging camera with a 2 minute limit on exposure with custom software that has a button to allow one to live broadcast on YouTube and not consider it a live veiw device?!

There is no way that speculation is correct.
  • jimthompson likes this

#210 OleCuss

OleCuss

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2010

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:14 PM

I prefer not to shoot or use darks, flats or bias subs.  With modern cameras it should not be a requirement.

 

 

bwa

 

 

I've no problem with that approach to imaging but I think it will limit your quality.

 

That is a compromise I can understand making since I really don't expect to ever start making exposures of 5+ minutes (could happen but I don't expect it) and that will limit the quality of what I do.

 

It is not actually a requirement that calibration images be used with even older-style cameras.  With meticulous and skilled processing you could even get some really good images out of the MCU without calibration images - but it requires a lot more skill and time/labor.

 

But even the newer imaging rigs tend to benefit from calibration frames.  The darks are less needed since the better CCD cameras have much of the amp-glow engineered out of them and the cooling is minimizing the hot/warm pixels - and the CMOS cameras generally need dithering in order to eliminate pattern noise.  One can argue that the bias frames aren't that important, but they can make a difference.

 

The one that is more difficult to eliminate is the need for flats since that one generally isn't fixing camera issues but issues which are mostly associated with the optical train (vignetting, dust motes, etc.).  But if you either use a sensor which is much smaller than the image circle or use cropping or other post-processing to work the vignetting - then if you keep your optics pristine the flats aren't all that required.

 

JMO



#211 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:25 PM

I'm really confused by what are you saying? Who in their right mind would make an imaging camera with a 2 minute limit on exposure with custom software that has a button to allow one to live broadcast on YouTube and not consider it a live veiw device?!

There is no way that speculation is correct.

I normally shoot 30-60 sec. subs off my Sony A7 cameras and can post wirelessly to several online sites.  I guess I could call it a "live view" device as well (and I used the A7S for such at outreach events)?  Just saying that this is ATIK's first foray into this arena from a strictly imaging background and I think they'll come at it from a slightly different direction than the Mallincam's of the world.

 

bwa



#212 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:31 PM

 

I prefer not to shoot or use darks, flats or bias subs.  With modern cameras it should not be a requirement.

 

 

bwa

 

 

I've no problem with that approach to imaging but I think it will limit your quality.

 

That is a compromise I can understand making since I really don't expect to ever start making exposures of 5+ minutes (could happen but I don't expect it) and that will limit the quality of what I do.

 

It is not actually a requirement that calibration images be used with even older-style cameras.  With meticulous and skilled processing you could even get some really good images out of the MCU without calibration images - but it requires a lot more skill and time/labor.

 

But even the newer imaging rigs tend to benefit from calibration frames.  The darks are less needed since the better CCD cameras have much of the amp-glow engineered out of them and the cooling is minimizing the hot/warm pixels - and the CMOS cameras generally need dithering in order to eliminate pattern noise.  One can argue that the bias frames aren't that important, but they can make a difference.

 

The one that is more difficult to eliminate is the need for flats since that one generally isn't fixing camera issues but issues which are mostly associated with the optical train (vignetting, dust motes, etc.).  But if you either use a sensor which is much smaller than the image circle or use cropping or other post-processing to work the vignetting - then if you keep your optics pristine the flats aren't all that required.

 

JMO

 

I normally shoot 30-120 sec. subs off my Sony A7 cameras and have never found darks or bias frames actually help.  In most cases they have had a negative impact on image quality.

 

Software can do as good a job at vignetting/gradient removal and elimination of dust spots as flats and is far less of a hassle.

 

bwa



#213 Lightpath

Lightpath

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 146
  • Joined: 23 Jan 2014

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:44 PM

 

I'm really confused by what are you saying? Who in their right mind would make an imaging camera with a 2 minute limit on exposure with custom software that has a button to allow one to live broadcast on YouTube and not consider it a live veiw device?!

There is no way that speculation is correct.

I normally shoot 30-60 sec. subs off my Sony A7 cameras and can post wirelessly to several online sites.  I guess I could call it a "live view" device as well (and I used the A7S for such at outreach events)?  Just saying that this is ATIK's first foray into this arena from a strictly imaging background and I think they'll come at it from a slightly different direction than the Mallincam's of the world.

 

bwa

 

 

We're off topic at this point, but do you have a link?  I'm interested in your results with the A7s.



#214 Relativist

Relativist

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8151
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2003
  • Loc: OC, CA, USA

Posted 22 March 2016 - 02:46 PM


I'm really confused by what are you saying? Who in their right mind would make an imaging camera with a 2 minute limit on exposure with custom software that has a button to allow one to live broadcast on YouTube and not consider it a live veiw device?!

There is no way that speculation is correct.

I normally shoot 30-60 sec. subs off my Sony A7 cameras and can post wirelessly to several online sites. I guess I could call it a "live view" device as well (and I used the A7S for such at outreach events)? Just saying that this is ATIK's first foray into this arena from a strictly imaging background and I think they'll come at it from a slightly different direction than the Mallincam's of the world.

bwa

Have you seen their sales page, they are clearly targeting electrotelescope usage, IMO.

#215 t_image

t_image

    Gemini

  • -----
  • Posts: 3086
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2015

Posted 22 March 2016 - 04:43 PM

......

 

By your posts here it sounds like you are looking for a less expensive camera to do imaging with, not live observing.  Perhaps you are looking in the wrong forum.  If you want to image, you probably should buy an imaging camera not a camera purpose built for live observing.

Regards,

Jim T

UhOh.....The EAA police are back. And they want people talking about anything like imaging out!!!!!

Nice passive-aggressiveness.

Seems to me EAA forum is about equipment. Seems to me talking about equipment is completely valid in this section of CN.
 

a camera purpose built for live observing.....

 

seems to me by the same logic anyone using a security camera should not be posting here either.

insert EAA controversy :beat:



#216 jimthompson

jimthompson

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2009
  • Loc: Ottawa, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 05:04 PM

UhOh.....The EAA police are back. And they want people talking about anything like imaging out!!!!! ...


 

 

 

EAA Police? :confused:
 

I thought this was a forum dedicated to electronically assisted observing and the equipment/software used for that purpose...isn't that what it basically says in the forum description?  Perhaps it is just me but does it not make more sense to ask a question in a group where the members share the same end goal?  As others have confirmed above, the Infinity and its software is purpose made and marketed for EAA which from the OP's postings did not sound like what he was looking for.  Maybe I am wrong?

 

Regards,

 

Jim T.


  • mclewis1 and JonNPR like this

#217 Carlscope

Carlscope

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Posted 22 March 2016 - 06:02 PM

Well as it's an Infinity topic the beta 3 software was released last week which now allows you to broadcast direct to video astronomy live as well as YouTube. 

 

I did a live broadcast last week with a SW 150p and LP filter under a 3/4 moon so conditions and gear are not ideal but work.

 

Not a perfect broadcast due to GOTO issues and if screen goes white I just forgot to tick a box.

 

Skip 15 mins to 63 as I had to realign but you can see it doing its thing live.

http://www.videoastronomylive.co.uk and click on the new iPlayer button at the top.

 

Seeing it being used even if badly may help?

 

Carl


Edited by Carlscope, 22 March 2016 - 06:03 PM.

  • Relativist and DSO_Viewer like this

#218 DSO_Viewer

DSO_Viewer

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 859
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2016

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:07 PM

Thank you Carl that was a great broadcast. What scope and focal reduction were you using please?



#219 StarMike8SE

StarMike8SE

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Joined: 26 Mar 2014
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:11 PM

 

 

...

The raw images are on my laptop and I will post some later today.  I did take one of the Orion nebula over to my other computer and processed it through StarTools.

...

 

Mike, can you upload a single sub of your Orion image so I can take a look at it. I'm really interested in what this camera can do!

 

I'd like to compare it to the output of the mono ATIK 428Ex which I own and like but the 428Ex is not that sensitive a camera...

 

bwa

 

P.S.:  I should not this camera might be a perfect match for the nine position filterwheel and RGB/narrowband filters I already use with the 428Ex.

 

When I get home tonight, I will upload what I have

 

Here is a couple of raw images from last night

o15.jpg o14.jpg


  • OleCuss likes this

#220 StarMike8SE

StarMike8SE

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
  • Joined: 26 Mar 2014
  • Loc: Florida

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:16 PM

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

h2.jpg

 

 


  • OleCuss likes this

#221 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:26 PM

Here is my HorseHead with the vignetting.  Much different that the Orion image

 

attachicon.gifh2.jpg

Wow, you weren't just kidding about vignetting w/ your 0.33x reducer!  With the size of sensor in the Infinity I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem?  Could it be a spacing problem?  I know one can use reducers at quite a wide range of spacing to get different reduction and levels of vignetting.

 

bwa



#222 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:32 PM

 

 

 

...

The raw images are on my laptop and I will post some later today.  I did take one of the Orion nebula over to my other computer and processed it through StarTools.

...

 

Mike, can you upload a single sub of your Orion image so I can take a look at it. I'm really interested in what this camera can do!

 

I'd like to compare it to the output of the mono ATIK 428Ex which I own and like but the 428Ex is not that sensitive a camera...

 

bwa

 

P.S.:  I should not this camera might be a perfect match for the nine position filterwheel and RGB/narrowband filters I already use with the 428Ex.

 

When I get home tonight, I will upload what I have

 

Here is a couple of raw images from last night

...

 

Could you upload an actual, full size sub off the camera to Dropbox, Google Drive or similar?  I'd really like to look at what is output directly from the camera, if possible before any live stacking...  I really want to get a feel for the noise levels and resolution in a single sub off the camera.

 

Sorry, to be a pain about this.

 

bwa



#223 bwallan

bwallan

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 554
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2010
  • Loc: Alberta, Canada

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:35 PM

I normally shoot 30-60 sec. subs off my Sony A7 cameras and can post wirelessly to several online sites.  I guess I could call it a "live view" device as well (and I used the A7S for such at outreach events)?  Just saying that this is ATIK's first foray into this arena from a strictly imaging background and I think they'll come at it from a slightly different direction than the Mallincam's of the world.

 

bwa

 

We're off topic at this point, but do you have a link?  I'm interested in your results with the A7s.

I got booted off the EAA site previously for talking about / showing aligned & stacked images.  I'd prefer not to get everyone totally **** off at me again...  But if you contact me offline I'll give you a link to my albums...

 

bwa



#224 Carlscope

Carlscope

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:37 PM

Thank you Carl that was a great broadcast. What scope and focal reduction were you using please?

Hi no reduction just camera to scope. It's a Skywatcher 150p reflector f5 with a light pollution filter. Reducers tend not to work well with reflectors.

 

Carl



#225 DSO_Viewer

DSO_Viewer

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 859
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2016

Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:35 PM

 

Thank you Carl that was a great broadcast. What scope and focal reduction were you using please?

Hi no reduction just camera to scope. It's a Skywatcher 150p reflector f5 with a light pollution filter. Reducers tend not to work well with reflectors.

 

Carl

 

Wow you got this at f/5 amazing Carl. Thank you!


  • Carlscope likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics