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Building a ROR in Florida ..... legally

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#176 Richard Whalen

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:14 PM

Hate to say it but it would have been much easier to just stick a pier into concrete, get a 365 scope cover and call it a day. If a big wind comes up whats to keep the trailer from moving and damaging the scope? Lot easier to take a cover off than roll a trailer around? Also looks like your western view might be impacted by the trailer?



#177 BlackSink

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 01:02 PM

Hate to say it but it would have been much easier to just stick a pier into concrete, get a 365 scope cover and call it a day. If a big wind comes up whats to keep the trailer from moving and damaging the scope? Lot easier to take a cover off than roll a trailer around? Also looks like your western view might be impacted by the trailer?

 

Ouch !!    and next you may point out that my Shih Tsu can't hunt .   :(

 

The trailer will house the scope, cameras, computer gear, wiring, a few smaller scopes and all that other "stuff" that accumulates when an impulse buyer becomes a backyard astronomer.

 

It will serve as my Fortress of Solitude when relatives over stay their visit, a refuge from any rare interruptions of married bliss and ,when the time comes, doors to the secrete chamber beneath the observatory will open, and the structure will transform into a stellar sarcophagus.

 

The shed structure is over built, over insulated, over nailed, over braced, and lag bolted into the frame of the trailer. It weighs a ton ... or close to it...  and will have hurricane tie downs at all corners.....  I got **** on this wind issue .....  it ain't goin' nowhere.

 

My neighbor's trees and the city lights are to the west ....  I plan to do most observing at zenith.

 

Besides,

as a retired native Floridian with a state pension and a bucket list...

I must fulfill my basic needs.   ;)

 

 

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Edited by BlackSink, 08 December 2015 - 01:50 PM.


#178 barbarosa

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 03:36 PM

This is a fascinating and instructive thread. Congrats on your solutions.

I do have a question about the pier. Is it aluminum embedded in concrete? If it is how did you address the problem of hydrogen formation and corrosion of the aluminum? This link has some technical info on the potential for corrosion in high humidity environments. If you did set the aluminum in concrete I don't know whether there is anything you can do or should do, except perhaps keep a close watch on things, or consult an expert perhaps.

Hopefully this is not piling on another problem when you have faced so many already.



#179 BlackSink

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 02:26 PM

This is a fascinating and instructive thread. Congrats on your solutions.

I do have a question about the pier. Is it aluminum embedded in concrete? If it is how did you address the problem of hydrogen formation and corrosion of the aluminum? 

 

The 5 1/2 ' section of aluminum box tube (6"x6") is only 1/8" thick.

Three feet is in the ground surrounded by a concrete footer......   2 1/2' is above ground.

 

The tube is poured solid up to 12" from the top......  concrete & lots of rebar.

The 12" skirt of the heavy duty stainless steel top plate is inserted into into this top empty section. (Tight fit)

Three large bolts penetrate this upper 12" and hold every thing together.

 

It feels very solid but I see your point about corrosion.

 

Remediation  ideas....  

 

encase the pier with an additional steel pipe or sections of steel plate lag bolted into the aluminum / concrete column.

 

and/or

pour the upper 12" solid with concrete and rebar. .....

which means I then can't take off the plate.

 

Don

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Edited by BlackSink, 09 December 2015 - 05:42 PM.


#180 barbarosa

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 06:31 PM

Hi Don,

 

I felt bad for even bringing it up, but when I was reading about the pier something about aluminum just tugged at my slow firing neurons. Then I had a vision of the pier taking up a little lean, and then...

 

If I have this right the aluminum has two problems. First it reacts with the alkaline substances in concrete to release gas. Second it is the sacrificial metal if both steel and aluminum are in the concrete.  I don't think you can do much about the first, except  try to minimize water penetration. Here for what it might be worth is my top of the head idea about the galvanic corrosion. Zinc is more prone to dissimilar metal corrosion than aluminum, so perhaps on or more sacrificial anodes placed in drilled and grouted holes might help.

 

There is a lot of info on the net about the problems of aluminum embedded in or fastened to concrete. It looks as if the accepted methods involve epoxy or asphaltic coatings on the aluminum, not much use to you now.

 

The Florida Building Code has 8 references to aluminum in concrete, but they all seem only to speak to only structural concrete, like this one,

 

1907.3.2 Conduits and pipes of aluminum shall not be embedded in structural concrete unless effectively coated or covered to prevent aluminum/concrete reaction or elec- trolytic action between aluminum and steel.

 

Hopefully you can get some advice from more knowledgeable folks about whether you have a problem and what if anything should be done.

 

I have to say that observing under cover wearing shorts and  T shirt is definitely a first class way to do it. Makes one want to move to warmer clime.

 

CS


Edited by barbarosa, 09 December 2015 - 08:29 PM.


#181 BlackSink

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 08:49 AM

Hi Don,

 

I felt bad for even bringing it up, but when I was reading about the pier something about aluminum just tugged at my slow firing neurons. Then I had a vision of the pier taking up a little lean and then ..

 

CS

 

Hmmm ....   a LX200 14" scope plus photo gear may not do well in a drop test.

............a shovel and a cool morning can solve this problem but I really wanted to try things out.

 

How about this wishful analysis ..... hypothesis ...

 

Let's think of the aluminum box tube as being just a "sono tube" type casing. The concrete and rebar inside the casing should be strong enough to hold the scope even without the strength of the surrounding aluminum.

 

The top 12" of the aluminum box tube does not contain concrete .....  

but it does pinch and is bolted to the 12" sleeve of the stainless steel base the wedge sits on.

This could be the weakest area because there is no concrete /rebar center core.

 

I have a 2' section of aluminum box tube left over from the build ...... so I can cut the section length wise ...

and sandwich the pieces under the upper bolted section of the pier.....  and lag bolt the lower end of these reinforcing pieces into the section of the pier that has concrete/rebar.

 

This would double the thickness of the upper 12" aluminum that surrounds the 12" steel sleeve of the top plate.

.....  the extra lag bolts would also hold these reinforcing sections to the conctete filled section of the pier.

 

The long term fix will later be to replace the aluminum box tube with steel.

If that stainless steel top plate was slid into 1/4" steel box tube there would be fewer issues.

I am sure there was a similar discussion about the original Hubble focus issues.

 

Don    .... hmmm .... 

 

I may also add a 2' length of thickish aluminum angle stock to each corner .....

just because I can....  

 

and then maybe sink some 6" diameter stainless steel bolts through the tectonic crust section beneath Florida and , well ....  that should hold it until I get around to a more permanent fix.

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Edited by BlackSink, 12 December 2015 - 02:58 PM.


#182 BlackSink

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 10:27 AM

Black Sink Observatory.    A Roll Back Trailer solution for excessive building code restrictions.

 

This thread started as a plan to build a Roll Off Roof observatory in Central Florida .....

but local building code reality soon slammed the door on this approach.

 

$3000 required for the formal engineering plans and permits with no guarantee of approval. 3k before the first nail. A local permitting firm researched the issue .......   No legal way around the rules..... period. Read the thread .....  Many work around ideas were floated without success..... 

 

Then one day my thoughts turned to Captian Kirk .....

Kobayashi Maru no-win scenerio ....   If you can't win, change the rules.
Escape the Building Dept black hole ......  and enter the Dept of Transportation nebula .
Yes, It does have a current Florida tag, can legally roll down the road, and is subject to the rules of the Florida DOT ...... not the local building department.

 

Here is the result.

 

 

 

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Edited by BlackSink, 04 January 2016 - 10:36 AM.


#183 Raginar

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:56 AM

Don, it looks awesome. Congrats on getting it finished!  Here's to some clear nights :)



#184 BlackSink

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:29 AM

Don, it looks awesome. Congrats on getting it finished!  Here's to some clear nights :)

 

Thanks to all who gave their insights and encouragement.

I was able to broadcast on NSN a few nights ago.

.... some issues still to work out but it is looking good.

 

Black Sink Observatory 

Don

 

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Edited by BlackSink, 06 January 2016 - 10:31 AM.


#185 Raginar

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:42 PM

Wish you'd posted you'd be broadcasting! :D

 

I'll look for it.



#186 bigeastro

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 09:38 PM

I called mine playground equipment and children's play house.  Permits not required for those types of temporary structures.



#187 bigeastro

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 09:39 PM

Just kidding.



#188 Raginar

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 11:18 PM

Seriously though, did that work :).

 

Where are you located?



#189 BlackSink

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM

Seriously though, did that work :).

Where are you located?

 

(.....next broadcast???)

Hi Raginar,

 

I hope to broadcast again on Monday night (1/11)...  NSN

still working on some basics and have been shy about announcing broadcasts.

 

Live video is fun but there are about 43 1/2 things that can go fubar 

..... task loading can make for frustration.

..... I ran the video productions class at my high school for a couple of years.

..... A fact of life about broadcasting .... especially live shows....

...... is that we are all used to million dollar a minute TV programs with a huge expert crew .....

......we may forget an NSN live production is probably being run by one old f@rt with four thumbs (me).

...... oh, did I mention a beer or two that helped the polar alignment but slowed the problem solving speed ??

:smirk:

 

I am in Ocala, Fl .......  not sure where Emillo is .... (SW Fl)

 

Don

AKA:   Black Sink Observatory / BlackSink

AKA:   Explorer 1

AKA:   Don

 

>>>>. why do we have all these names ??? :p


Edited by BlackSink, 10 January 2016 - 10:02 AM.


#190 Raginar

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 01:08 PM

Lol. Cool, I'll try to get online. Don't sweat the performance. Most people are happy to see anything and just talkπŸ˜‚


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