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Canon Banding Help

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#51 Red Brick

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:07 PM

Not to beat a dead horse but this is a common problem along many cameras. A couple of suggestions here. 1 Utilize post processing software. 2. Adjust the camera for light and darks again by the way this is the only time you will experience banding as some sensor laying is composed of lace lines and others crisscross like diamonds. The first attributes to banding during noise as an attribute for long exposure but lineage transmission across the sensor surface is more cost effective and faster. Diamonds consume more power and are also a girls best friend. These are the sensors used in high output cameras and astro cameras that I only wish I could afford. 3. Do not use light and dark calibration utilize another lighting format. The easiest fix is probably post processing.



#52 dciobota

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 03:05 PM

I'd second dumping darks altogether.  There have been many different posts on this topic over the years, so opinions will vary, but in my experience going back to the grandpappy of them all, the D30, I've discovered that darks cause more issues than they solve.

 

 Hot pixel removal can be easily done simply by dithering, and honestly, cameras have become so good nowaydays that hot pixels are few and far between.  Use kappa-sigma as your stacking method, make sure your camera dithers a bit between exposures, and forget darks.  Just my own personal opinion.



#53 Jon Rista

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 02:07 AM

I would offer a correction to the "darks are more trouble than their worth" addage: They are more trouble than they are worth if you are using DSS. I ditched darks when I was still using DSS, and with dithering my results were better.

 

Since moving to PixInsight, however, there is no question that calibration with darks gives me cleaner results in the end. PI handles all the necessary noise evaluation, master frame scaling, cosmetic correction, and integration with outlier rejection FAR better than anything else I've used. I get a LOT of red, green and blue hot pixels in my demosaiced frames and in my final integrations when I do not use darks with PI. I once tried to build a cosmetic correction map that would fix all of them, but when you actually sit down to do that, you realize that even a "few" hot pixels in a sensor that has tens of millions of them is still tens of thousands of pixels. So darks definitely help.

 

The only reason it seems like they don't help with DSS, is DSS just doesn't handle the data all that well. It's a great beginners integration tool...but if you are a the point where your looking to get better results...don't ditch the darks. Ditch DSS. 


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#54 sharkmelley

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 03:48 AM

I completely agree with John. Dithering and sigma rejection is good but it is even better to perform proper (automatic) master dark scaling as well. PI is brilliant for this.

Mark
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#55 Tonk

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 07:50 AM

They are more trouble than they are worth if you are using DSS. I ditched darks when I was still using DSS

 

Can you make clear that this is just your experience. Its NOT my experience at all and I consistently get good images using darks in DSS and NOT dithering (using DSS since 2007). This just tells me you haven't mastered shooting darks - or you have miss-set some option in DSS  ;)

 

Feel free to check the DSO images here - https://www.astrobin.com/users/Tonk/ - all dark calibrated in DSS and none are dithered. Then tell me that DSS is a problem!


Edited by Tonk, 21 January 2016 - 07:52 AM.


#56 sharkmelley

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:57 PM

 

They are more trouble than they are worth if you are using DSS. I ditched darks when I was still using DSS

 

Can you make clear that this is just your experience. Its NOT my experience at all and I consistently get good images using darks in DSS and NOT dithering (using DSS since 2007). This just tells me you haven't mastered shooting darks - or you have miss-set some option in DSS  ;)

 

Feel free to check the DSO images here - https://www.astrobin.com/users/Tonk/ - all dark calibrated in DSS and none are dithered. Then tell me that DSS is a problem!

 

 

Out of interest, do you use the dark optimization in DSS?

 

Mark



#57 fco_star

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:59 PM

I have two 450Ds and neither exhibit banding so either you have a rogue 450D or your processing has an issue - so I agree with Doug

 

+1



#58 HillTop

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 04:08 PM

fco_star - I have two of them and both have banding, so go figure.  I have determined that it is a combination of processing and the way the camera tweaks the RAW data when shooting dark/bias frames.  The PixInsight "alternate DSLR" calibration/integration workflow seems to do the trick, although I think I'm trading increased noise for no bands (just my opinion, not definite yet.)  I haven't played with DSS enough to see if I can do the same thing, but PI is so much more flexible (if more time-consuming.)



#59 NicholasP

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:59 PM

With a very big regret today i discovered some banding lines on my brand new Canon Eos 750D, it is an awful experience for the money i spended !

So far i was using Canon Eos 550D without any similar problems...

 

Does anyone know about this banding problem on this camera model ??or, if there is something i can do to fix ???

 

Nikolas.



#60 sharkmelley

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:02 PM

With a very big regret today i discovered some banding lines on my brand new Canon Eos 750D, it is an awful experience for the money i spended !

So far i was using Canon Eos 550D without any similar problems...

 

Does anyone know about this banding problem on this camera model ??or, if there is something i can do to fix ???

 

Nikolas.

 

Post an example of what you mean with full details of ISO and shutter speed.  Was it a daylight or artificial light image?

 

Mark



#61 NicholasP

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 03:04 PM

Ok so here it goes !!! photos are converted from .CR2 to .JPEG for uploading

 

Imaging Camera : Unmodded (for the moment) Canon EOS 750D

Telescope : Orion 8" f/4

SW Coma Corrector 0.85

 

-Photo A(2): Sculptor Galaxy single frame at ISO 200 / exp.120sec

-Photo B :Sculptor Galaxy single frame at ISO 800 / exp.60sec

 

Since it was the first time i was using the camera i was experimenting trying to find the optimal settings before i proceed to a modification...

 

Later on during the process of my photo's i realized these lines that i didn't have before with my canon 550d...I was really surprised....

Till now from all the searching i have done these vertical band lines, can not be removed with calibration frames nor is a malfunction of the sensor, so i don't think that Canon will bother with me..the model 5d and 7d have the same problems from what i am reading...

 

Nikolas.

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • B.jpg
  • A (2).jpg


#62 HillTop

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 11:45 AM

Ouch, those are harsh.  Much more defined and regular than what I've been experiencing.  Looks like electrical interference - anything else change in your setup (including cables?)  Hope you get it sorted out.



#63 NicholasP

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 01:15 AM

Yesterday i tried a different approach to my banding lines problem, i made some night shots at BULB mode not with my telescope but with the camera lens...and all camera settings set to original first state....

 

Guess what....there were not any banding lines or even if they were there i couldn't see them.....I tried overexpose / underexpose and nothing !no lines....

 

So there are more things i need to try....
-Usb cable...i was using the old Canon EOS 550d usb cable
-Software used...(APT Tool v.300) maybe its not ready yet for DIGIC 6 camera's...
-LCD monitor position (in case it affects the image)...is it going to be close to the sensor or far away, flipped , does voltage from the screen creates banding lines to the image ???
-Sensor heating from continuous shooting...
-My coma corrector/focal reducer used for taking the shot (skywatcher 0.85)...maybe it magnifies the problem....
-Calibration frames (maybe they will remove the problem)...
-Camera settings like, flicker ON/OFF...and some other concern the noise reduction, lens settings etc...



#64 HillTop

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 10:36 AM

Can't see the lense vs. scope (or any part of the optical train) being an issue - try to keep all factors the same, only changing one variable at a time to narrow down the problem.  Since the banding went away it's obviously something that can be conquered - no need to try to remove it in calibration/post processing.



#65 JamieHammondM78

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 03:15 AM

Hello, I have exactly the same lines on my 750d. I'll post an example later but I've tried a lot of different combinations of settings over the last 6 months but I can't get rid of them. What I have found is that LP definitely makes them show up more. I get them on my flats too, and I only use Dslr lenses for my AP

#66 JamieHammondM78

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 05:19 AM

Ok so here is some more detail. I purchased this camera from a guy who astro mods them and until i saw this post i was sure the modding process was to blame, now im not so sure. I get lines in nearly all my images with this 750D camera. 

 

  • Lenses include: Canon 400mm L F5.6, Canon 200mm F2.8, Samyang 24mm F1.5 - All images taken with these lenses have the lines problem.
  • When shooting, i always use a battery for the power supply 
  • The LCD is always off
  • WB is set to Daylight 
  • I use a Hanhel shutter release 

This image is flat that has been stretched to show the problem, and then the other is a processed image with darks, bias, flats applied - also blown out to show the issue. 

 

Canon 750D banding
Album: Camera Issues
2 images
1 comments

 
 
I have tried most ISO's, 400-800 seem to be the worse, ISO 1600 seems to be the best and helps hide the issue.
 
I have no real idea what causes it, my 6D is faultless and always produces clean images. Its not great to be honest and im already thinking about replacing it, question is if i replace it will i just get another canon camera that has this issue!


#67 NicholasP

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 06:35 AM

Exactly my issue as well !!!!
It seems that Canon is not very careful and hurry to do things fast, to fight competition !!!sad for us who buy the products trusting in the good reputation...

Yes i am feeling sorry, i own 3 canon cameras...I never had this problem with the EOS 550D...and when you buy something new, how on earth you can thing that you might face this problem....I mean come on....this is the sensor were talking, and can it be more important !

Nevertheless i am posting 1 photo i made yesterday :
a-Great Nebula in Orion, with modified Canon (LPF-2 removed, LPF-1 in place), plus Astronomik CLS-CCD clip filter...(without the filter was far more light sensitive)
   ISO 400 / 10x60sec exposures
   ISO 800 / 10x2sec exposures
   5 Darks
   5 Flats
   10 Bias

Very softly and quickly processed ,banding is there, but barely visible...
So, i don't know what exactly creates the banding to be visible, but from this first experience i see that we can fix it..
For sure though, it should not be there from the first place..!!
One thing that i noticed, comparing to the old EOS 550D, is that the Sensor Temperature was high for as cold as winter season...i am not sure how it will behave in summer ....

Attached Thumbnails

  • 2.jpg

Edited by NicholasP, 29 January 2016 - 09:51 AM.


#68 JamieHammondM78

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 08:27 AM

Ive been told the lines are very similar to the position of the On Sensor Focusing. Maybe if the focus is just a tiny bit out they are exaggerated? I dont know but I do know the severity of the lines is not always the same.

 

I just got a CLS CCD filter so im going to see if that helps to prevent them. Ive done 10min exposures with this camera using the 12nm Ha clip filter and the lines were barely visible.  

 

But im sorry to say that I think its the sensor, although its not apparent in all 750D's - My mate has a 750D, modded by the same guy and it never shows the lines. 



#69 JamieHammondM78

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 08:33 AM

I should sat that although its not ideal, they can be removed - takes a lot of processing and compromises but i managed to remove green lines from this image. 
 
45x2min, no filter, 750D Canon 200mm , ISO800
 
 
Horse Head Nebula


#70 NicholasP

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 09:57 AM

Canon already from the first days had issues with the sensor of this model, i took this photo from the internet....

Although they claim they fix the problem, these white/silver lines remain.

Can you see ??

 

I think these are the lines that create our banding issues !This is how the sensor is manufactured...who knows why ?

My previous model EOS 550D sensor at close up its absolutely clean, if someone see in the sunlight...

 

Nikolas.

Attached Thumbnails

  • t6ssensor-hero-970-80.jpg


#71 JamieHammondM78

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 10:09 AM

Right ok well there is our problem then! It seems like this is how they are manufactured and therefore we arent going to fix the issue. 

 

Do you have a link to where you got this image from? Id like to know if its an issue they have fixed? But did you just buy the 750D? 



#72 NicholasP

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 11:23 AM

Yes the camera is brand new...there is a link from where i took the photo...You can read also about the issue...

 

http://www.techradar...0d-760d-1293313

 

and here :

 

http://www.lensrenta...t6-sensor-issue

 

Nikolas



#73 JamieHammondM78

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 01:01 PM

Take it back then? I'm in a bad position as mine has been modded and therefore warranty will be void.

#74 NicholasP

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 03:10 PM

I have modded as well....  :)



#75 IshanAstronomer

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 11:40 AM

I too have been puzzled by this problem. The horizontal bands appear in the light frames in my 1100D unmodded. Calibration in DSS does NOT remove those. But I found an easy way to remove it using a free software Fitswork 4. That is if you don't have Noel Carboni's Photoshop actions.

The steps are:

(1) Open the stacked file in Fitswork.

(2) Run Processing / Background Flatten / Lines of Equal Values

(3) I didn't tweak the settings. But you could play with it.

(4) Run it again if required.

(5) Save as 16bit integer tiff to open up in Photoshop.

 

I couldn't judge if this step introduced other problems in the image. But its almost eliminated the horizontal banding.

BTW, Fitswork has some useful processing options NR and Back. flattening in particular.




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