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Cartes du Ciel for doubles

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#1 inZet

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 03:39 PM

I've been using Cartes du Ciel (CdC) aka SkyChart for a while now and found it the most effective planetarium software for doubles. Its WDS catalog is complete and very easy to install. Even thought it contains the most recent WDS compared to the rest of many softwares I've tried so far, the last database generation was done in november 2012.

Because I maintain the StelleDoppie website I already have the entire WDS in my RDBMS; i've programmed an export procedure to generate a file ready to be imported using CatGen, and here we go.

 

You can download form this URL, and install in CdC using the instructions found in the manual.

http://stelledoppie....ownload/dsd.zip

 

I used DSD as source name to distinguish it from the "official" WDS catalog from the CdC website.

 

It was not extensively tested and something will need to be modified for sure. There are some areas not clear where I need some explanations and advices from the author, but I've not received an answer so far; let's test it and we will see if it works!

Please give me a feedback. Your comments are welcomed.

Let our community grow with the right tools.

 

Gianluca

 

 

P.s.: I usually export a list from StelleDoppie to CdC, and use the file as observing list and selecting "highlight on chart" flag. 100% of doubles found. It is not always true for SkySafari because they used primaries only in version 4 and in version 3 the WDS catalog was even less complete; and to upgrade a catalog in SS you have to install a new version of the entire software. I was tired to ask for WDS upgrades and frustrated. I decided to go freeware and I'll never come back. Closed source software can't catch up with daily WDS updates.



#2 gregj888

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 12:34 AM

Gianluca,

 

Thank you, will give it a try.

 

Greg



#3 chrysalis

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Posted 24 October 2015 - 04:00 PM

I use CdC exclusively. It is a wonderful program.



#4 inZet

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 10:14 AM

Guys, what's your experience with this database?

 

I've sent a message to SkyChart mailing list on Yahoo, hoping they have deeper knowledge of CatGen.

 

I've completed new observing session last day, and I found it worked fine. As usual, I've prepared a list with StelleDoppie, exported to CdC and imported as User custom observing list, highlighting the doubles to help my identification on the screen.

 

In the next StelleDoppie release it will be possible to import the list from CdC, too.


Edited by inZet, 28 October 2015 - 10:21 AM.


#5 drollere

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 09:14 PM

gianluca, thanks for all this work. as you say, there is apparently no other way to keep current with the data about double stars.

 

like you, i've grown weary of asking software publishers and equipment manufacturers to get their act together. it's all about astrophotography for them; if astronomical data changes, it's the data's fault.

 

we're just now entering our rainy season in california so i'm not sure when i will be able to try this out. i'd love to be able to use it to create a database in SkyX.

 

by the way, your work on the CDSA 2 was invaluable, and you'll be pleased to know that the "stock date" for publication is still november 20. so presumably it will be available by christmas.



#6 panhard

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 11:44 AM

Gianluca I also am going to give it a shot. :bow:

Thank You



#7 inZet

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 01:55 PM

Any report is welcomed.

I'm preparing a new export run, to be performed soon.

Stay tuned.



#8 catalogman

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 06:59 PM

>You can download form this URL, and install in CdC using the instructions found in the manual.

>http://stelledoppie....ownload/dsd.zip

 

I created a WDS build for CdC almost like yours. The attached screenshot
compares the same CdC field (left) with Stellarium (right). CdC uses my

custom catalogue, Stellarium does not.
 
Before compiling with CatGen, some of the fields have to be modified:
for instance, I filled in the blank magnitudes with the dummy value "19.99".

Then I had to write a program to separate the letter and number fields, which

I see you did as well. An error in making those changes could prevent the

object from being found during a search, or could even crash the program.

One thing that I don't like about CdC is the "tail" which it sets 
thru binary stars. I've found that it can be suppressed by setting 
the color of "Misc. lines" to match the background sky color. The
faint black line partially thru the star's disk helps to identify it
as a binary.
 
I can't find a similar way to distinguish binaries on Stellarium -- as

shown in the screenshot, the only way that I find to identify binaries is

by checking the Information panel.
 
                                                                                      -- catalogman

Attached Thumbnails

  • wds_sample.jpg

Edited by catalogman, 15 November 2015 - 07:01 PM.


#9 gregj888

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 12:59 PM

Gianluca,

 

I haven't used it on sky, but have it working on both my desk and laptop computers.  I like it and the little tails.

 

The only questing, I can't seem to search on the WDS number.  20449-4332 doesn't "hit" but ES 1448 does.  I can cross reference, but I like using the WDS numbers for consistency.  Is there a way to search on those and have them displayed in the CDC popup?

 

BTW, this would have helped last time I was out.  Doing Speckle, I took a cube from the double above.  Then went to a close "single star" to take a cube for deconvolution.  Centered it up and yup... another double.  So went to another...  quite clearly a single star, until I was trying something with the cube looking for a seeing monitor. Quite certain it too is a really close double... :-)  No idea which one, I was testing a camera and technique not "doing doubles," but I have a guess from the chart. 

 

Really nice. will be using this a lot.

 

Greg



#10 inZet

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 06:51 PM

Gianluca,

 

I haven't used it on sky, but have it working on both my desk and laptop computers.  I like it and the little tails.

 

The only questing, I can't seem to search on the WDS number.  20449-4332 doesn't "hit" but ES 1448 does.  I can cross reference, but I like using the WDS numbers for consistency.  Is there a way to search on those and have them displayed in the CDC popup?

 

 

BTW, this would have helped last time I was out.  Doing Speckle, I took a cube from the double above.  Then went to a close "single star" to take a cube for deconvolution.  Centered it up and yup... another double.  So went to another...  quite clearly a single star, until I was trying something with the cube looking for a seeing monitor. Quite certain it too is a really close double... :-)  No idea which one, I was testing a camera and technique not "doing doubles," but I have a guess from the chart. 

 

Really nice. will be using this a lot.

 

Greg

 

Greg, I'm working on this issue to understand what works best. It is certanly possible to prepare a catalog where the WDS ID is used to identify the double and the discoverer number is added in the alternative names field, so that both can be searched. What's not clear to me is if a new catalog is necessary or the settings in Setup->Display->Labels->Star label can display alternative names checking the "common name" ratio button. This way it should work but there's no double star specific settings, so this is a global settings: you'll see _all_ stars with their common names.

 

There are settings that lets you display the doubles on certain zoom levels, so check it out Setup->Display->Labels->Display the labels->Multiple star, Magnitude difference=0 and Setup->Catalog->Catalog to be sure min=0 and max=10.

 

 

@catalogman: those "tails" displayed by CdC are useful to identify doubles in star-dense fields. Stars that belong to a certain system are connected by lines, where the primary star is in the center. I'm currently developing a plugin for Aladin to do the same.

AFAIK there's no specific settings to suppress this behaviour, which can be annoying for some people. I suggest you to create a wanted feature in the software's bug tracker system. Instructions on the CdC website.

 

 

Gianluca



#11 gregj888

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 08:41 PM

Gianluca

 

I'm using V 3.8.  I like what I see.  The new version seems much faster (or I changed computers... :-).

 

Name and common name display the same thing on the screen.  Pop up is also the same.  Even if the WDS number was under comments, that would help.

 

Changing difference=0 turns on all labels, changing it to say 4 suppresses a number of the labels  higher suppresses more, but I cant tell what it's based on.  Doesn't seem to be apparent mag, delta mag or separation.

 

After I load the DSD catalog, if I exit, it goes away even if I save the configuration under setup.  If I save (under file) then I can get it back on a load.

 

Thank you...



#12 catalogman

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 05:29 PM

The attachment "wds_record" shows a record from my version of

the WDS catalog build.

 

The Catalog ID numbers are in the "STF 1670" field. (The

components are in the "Component name" field.)

 

To include the WDS numbers (in yellow) in a search, during

the CatGen compile assign the WDS number to one of the Strings.

Then be sure to check the "Add the alternate names to the index"

box.

 

As you can see from the other screenshots, this version of

the WDS will be searchable by either WDS or other designation.

A display of the full record is in Post #8.

 

                                                                      -- catalogman

Attached Thumbnails

  • wds_record.jpg
  • wds_search.jpg
  • other_search.png


#13 gregj888

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 08:05 PM

catalogman,

 

Thank  you.  I understand what's going on now, will have to do some reading to figure out how to resolve it.  For now, the download doesn't seem to have the WDS numbers in it or I managed o strip them out.

 

Greg



#14 catalogman

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:38 AM

You did not strip out the WDS numbers -- in fact, you cannot
modify the OP's catalogue at all.

 

Attached is a screenshot from the original WDS, which can be
found here:

 

ftp://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/pub/cats/B/wds/

 

See how the original catalogue has no WDS acronym before the
numbers and closes up the alternative names?

 

The OP modified the text of the catalogue by adding spaces to the
alternative names with a program or a script. Then the OP compiled
the modified WDS with CatGen and posted the resulting .dat files.

The text of the WDS is not in the OP's folder, so you cannot
recompile under CatGen and make changes to the catalogue. (An
analogy is that you have been given the .exe of a program but
not its source code.)

 

The only way that you can make changes is to modify the text of
the original WDS above and then compile it under CatGen. (That's
how I built my version.) During the compile, the fields of the WDS
that you select are the fields that will be displayed in the CdC
pop-up. (That's why the pop-up from my WDS -- see Post #8 --

differs from the OP's WDS.)

 

                                                                                  -- catalogman

Attached Thumbnails

  • wds_original.jpg

Edited by catalogman, 20 November 2015 - 12:41 AM.


#15 gregj888

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:45 PM

catalogman,

 

Again, thank you.  What are you using to look at the .dat files? 

 

I did a quick and dirty look with Word Pad to verify the WDS IDs weren't there before posting earlier.  Something with nice formatting would be better.

 

Again, thank you for posting the link.  As far as I can tell, the WDS numbers are the only IDs that cover all the double stars: BU, STF, COU... and all the others are subsets.  StelleDoppie is awesome, wish it's search was integrated into CdC, but I'm not always able to be on line.  For consistence, I'm trying to use the WDS IDs when I post data so prefer to use those numbers for everything. 

 

Greg



#16 catalogman

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 04:31 PM

If you build the WDS the way I did, you will be able to search by either WDS number or other

designation.

At the WDS link, you need only the largest file for the build. To convert the Linux-style carriage

returns to PC or Mac style, an easy way is to open the file in gEdit. Then save the file as a .txt

in PC or Mac format.

The raw catalogue needs modification because some of the magnitudes are missing, so during

the compile CatGen will complain about some records not being processed. To format the file,

name it "f1.txt" and then run the attached program in freeware Decimal BASIC (PC, Mac, or Linux

version). After a few minutes, the nicely formatted file will be "f5.txt" and should have the format of

"wds_record" in Post #12. Rename to "wds.txt".

Set up a directory in CdC of where you want to build your custom WDS. Put both "wds.txt" and

the attached "wds.prj" in that directory. Now open CatGen in CdC and load the project file "wds.prj".

Except for specifying the input and output directory paths, just follow the menus and click "Next" a

few times to build your custom WDS.

To display the build, add your custom catalogue to the menu, then browse to "wds.hdr" and click

on the colored button (see the first screenshot in the OP's manual), "Apply", and "OK". You should

see the shorter catalogue numbers on the charts but the details window gives searchable WDS

numbers as in Post #12. (If you want the WDS numbers on the charts, then just make those the

"Catalog ID" during the build. With CdC's CatGen, you can design your own catalogue in any way

you like!)

 

                                                                                   -- catalogman
 
 

Attached Files


Edited by catalogman, 20 November 2015 - 05:27 PM.


#17 gregj888

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 08:23 PM

On my to-do list, give me a couple of days.

 

My degree's in CS and used to be the project lead for a DB conversion team...  but that was a long time ago.  All this is easily followed, but will need to step-by-step through it the first time.

 

Thanks,

 

Greg 



#18 gregj888

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 02:29 AM

catalogman,

 

Thank you, worked great...  now I'll have to see if I can get the new catalog into Deepsky  :-)

 

Greg


Edited by gregj888, 25 November 2015 - 02:31 AM.


#19 inZet

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 08:29 PM

I have not seen any complains about magnitudes when generating the catalog in CatGen.



#20 gregj888

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 09:58 PM

Used the WDS.DAT and got it into Deep Sky as well... now for come clear sky's... 



#21 catalogman

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 11:57 PM

Glad to hear that you now have a working WDS in two programs, gj888.
 
Here's a comparison of my WDS with the OP's:
 
- Both versions separate the secondary catalog name from the number (the most important feature).
 
- My version allows a search by either WDS number or other number  (by adding both fields to the

  index during the CatGen build).

- My version suppresses the component name from the secondary identification so that chart labels

  don't crash into each other. (The component names do show up in the pop-up window of each component,

  however.)
 
- My version fills in the original WDS blank magnitudes with the  dummy value "19.99" so a mag setting

  of 20+ will reveal them.  The OP's version probably left those fields blank, so CatGen  either filled in its

  own dummy value ("99.99"?) or left those  fields blank. (In some other fields, CatGen will complain about
  missing data during the compile.) In either case, in the OP's  version I can't get these "missing magnitude"

  objects (see att.) to display at all.
 
- My version includes other information from the WDS that the OP's  version does not. This isn't meant to

  supersede the OP, but to  illustrate with an example that CatGen allows you to custom-build a catalog to

  include the information that you choose to include.
 
                                                                                                                         -- catalogman 
 
 

Attached Files


Edited by catalogman, 25 November 2015 - 11:58 PM.


#22 gregj888

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 01:54 AM

Catalogman,

 

Thank you again.  Most here can use either list without an issue.  I like the WDS numbers for consistency, makes my life easier.

 

The new WDS is pretty good, only 36 or so without mags and I don't see any without separations.  The list that came with Deep Sky wasn't nearly as complete.  I'm not sure if I prefer blanks (0s in a Deep Sky search) or something like 19.99 for the missing Mags.  I can find them either way.  Since most are proto stars (19.99 being more accurate), I doubt I'll be observing them soon. 

 

Here's the map file for DeepSky and the the original WDS.DAT file.   Use 130 for the record length, double star for type and a name of your choice.  Replace the .txt with .GSS and load it under catalog-import.  I think it's correct, but no guarantees... 

 

Attached File  wds dat.txt   6.62KB   24 downloads

 

Greg

 

 



#23 inZet

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 05:10 PM

I've corrected some issues, such as the ability to search for WDS ID.

 

There are now two versions online:

 

full WDS catalog (DSD):

http://stelledoppie....ownload/dsd.zip

 

visual WDS catalog (DSDv):

http://stelledoppie....wnload/dsdv.zip

 

These catalogs are ready to use. No need to use CatGen.

DSDv contains doubles with separation > 0.5" and magnitude < 16

It should be easier to use when observing.

 

Download the .zip file and extract somewhere on your disk drive. Launch Cartes du Ciel and add the catalog: Setup->Catalog...->Catalog, click Add and go to the directory just extracted to select the .hdr file.

You can have both the catalogs added to CdC, they have different names and directories.

 

Gianluca

 

 

 

 



#24 Bomber Bob

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 08:42 AM

Really like this program.  Not just for doubles.  I made some customized charts to find Uranus from my light polluted back yard.



#25 drollere

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 01:39 PM

it's great to see the WDS being utilized more assertively by amateurs. that's what it is there for.

 

first, basic, caveat: download the catalog directly from USNO. it's split into four tranches by RA, linked here:

 

http://www.usno.navy...IR-prod/wds/WDS

 

if you use any other source, the provenance will be second hand. at best, they are only exporting it from USNO. at worst, they exported it last a year ago. the USNO files are updated frequently and are the "ur text".

 

SIMBAD is the better source for proper motion, parallax, magnitude and spectral types; it lists the separation between components only if you use the "query around" option centered on the primary star.

 

the missing magnitudes typically indicate an interferometric pair. missing separations can indicate infrared pairs where the separation is below the resolution of the instrument or was not provided in the discovery report. in either case, they have no significance for the visual astronomer.

 

both the WDS ID and catalog ("discoverer") ID can and may change over time for several reasons. it's useful to have both if one or the other fails a lookup.

 

personally, i find the WDS deficient in a number of useful types of information -- HD, HIP or SAO synonyms, distance, orbital information, net proper motion, proper motion divergence, target flamsteed/bayer designations, and so on. for that reason i compile my own spreadsheet every six months or so, and also use that to calculate whether the pair is more likely a physical system or an optical illusion.




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