24 replies to this topic

[Bomber Bob]

Rather than jumping from thread to thread and repeating posts, here's a place to put what we know about the 3 variations of 3 letters, HOC.

 

[1]  cursive HOC ("script" HOC on bino forums)

- Binocular forums say this mark refers to Hiyoshi Optical Company.

- I found a shipping manifest where the importer is Swift, and the manufacturer is Hiyoshi, and a photo that shows the c-HOC mark for a pair of these binoculars.

- IMO, the shape of the mark points to Hy OC, which fits the Hiyoshi Optical Company references on lots of web sites.

 

I have more Hiyoshi supporting data on my home PC.  Can't upload it here, but there are other sites available.  The manifest is the best evidence I've found so far.

 

[2]  HOC (no periods) - Hitomi Optical Company

 

[3]  H.O.C. - Hino Optical Company

[Bomber Bob]

In reviewing the bino forums, I filtered out the "me, too" posts, and focused on the original poster.  And, I tried to gauge that originator's expertise where possible.  But the additional posts, where owners share their opinion of a particular maker, are good supporting evidence for the consistent quality of the optics.  That's how reputations develop.  See:  Unitron.

 

I was most interested in Hiyoshi because my Monolux 4380 had the sharpest brightest views I'd ever seen through a 60mm f/15 achromat -- and I've looked through many over the years.  The positive comments from so many bino owners validated my own observations - that's always nice.

 

In the same way, we have some vintage Japanese telescope experts on CN.  Once I figured that out, I paid attention to their posts, and bought gear accordingly.  And - knock on wood! - no duds yet.

[rcwolpert]

This is a good idea, JW.

 

We can also summarize that what is definitely known from this reference:  http://home.europa.c...cope/jbcode.txt

 

JB 56   =  Hiyoshi Kogaku Co. Ltd.

JB 102 =  Hoya Kogaku Co. Ltd.

JB 114  = Hoya Optical Co.,Ltd.,Tokyo

JB 207 =  Hiyoshi Optical Co.,Ltd.,Tokyo

 

Hino Optical Company and Hitomi Optical Company don't have a JB# and may not have made binocular components/optics.

[apfever]

Wow Bob, awesome.  I'll put in some info from personal experience.  I never even considered the two block versions. I have all these on some scopes. A recent occurrence is both cursive HOC and Takahashi on separate original issue finders on Cave scopes. I've always found the cursive HOC to be essentially identical in font for all sizes. I still have the cursive finder, I think Chuck has the TAK on his 6" Cave, mine is on a 10" Cave.  I can't remember the symbol for TAK right off. 

 

It's a small matter but I like the cursive for its style. It's a nice font. I've always liked the performance I've found with it.  The current Mayflower in progress is cursive HOC.

[Bomber Bob]

[4]  Multiple Maker's Marks

 

- When there are two or more distinct / different marks on the same instrument, the consensus among bino owners is the mark closest to the objective is the lens maker / supplier.

- But what about telescopes?  Multiple marks on the scope label?  Who did what in that case?

[PiSigma]

This was discussed in an earlier thread. Maybe there is something here that would be useful to the new discussion:

 

http://www.cloudynig...-dont-think-so/

[DMala]

Here is my contribution:

 

• H.O.C. from the focuser wheel of a late '50s Monolux 4380, no other manufacturer's stamps found anywhere so far
• and cursive HOC from my Vixen-branded 7x50 binoculars, also stamped J-B56  (Hiyoshi Kogaku Co. Ltd.) on the right focuser arm . 

Attached Thumbnails

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[astro140]

Rather than jumping from thread to thread and repeating posts, here's a place to put what we know about the 3 variations of 3 letters, HOC.

 

[1]  cursive HOC ("script" HOC on bino forums)

- Binocular forums say this mark refers to Hiyoshi Optical Company.

- I found a shipping manifest where the importer is Swift, and the manufacturer is Hiyoshi, and a photo that shows the c-HOC mark for a pair of these binoculars.

- IMO, the shape of the mark points to Hy OC, which fits the Hiyoshi Optical Company references on lots of web sites.

 

I have more Hiyoshi supporting data on my home PC.  Can't upload it here, but there are other sites available.  The manifest is the best evidence I've found so far.

 

[2]  HOC (no periods) - Hitomi Optical Company

 

[3]  H.O.C. - Hino Optical Company

Bob,

I find this discussion (and past discussions) of the cursive HOC trademark quite interensting as I own a c-HOC branded Shrine-Manon telescope.  Although attributing the c-HOC trademark to Hiyoshi Optical Company makes sense, I note the c-HOC trademark pictured by "DMala" is a J-B56, which is attributed to Hiyoshi Kogaku Co. Ltd.  So, do we have two companies that used a cursive HOC?  Since they have different J-B numbers I assume they are different companies.  Or am I just being dense   

 

Steve

New Mexico

[TexasSky]

great thread bob!

i don't have a lot of details.....but I do have a cursive hoc Monolux 4380......I also have numerous 60mm scopes, actually probably about a dozen...while i have yet to have my own 60mm telescope "shootout" (planned sometime, probably within the next couple months)......I can honestly say that I know the hoc Monolux would be at or near the very top.......I have used this scope several times up against a couple others.......I was amazed at the higher level of "crispness" and just more stars resolved in the same field of view as the others........

this maker was truly exceptional in my opinion......

bob

[Bomber Bob]

I'm still going through the Internet, trying to determine if "Hiyoshi Kogaku Co. Ltd." and "Hiyoshi Optical Company" are the same company, but translated or presented differently.  And, how many binoculars have multiple JB codes; that is, how common was it for these imports to be made by more than one company.

 

I started the Registry to try and sort these issues out.  Back then, I thought I was going too far into the weeds collecting nit-noid data.  Actually, I didn't go deep enough, because there's a cacophony of brands, makers, importers, and vendors.  Unitron is an exception - thank goodness!

[Terra Nova]

Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:44 AM
"Hi
I got important information today.
Hitomi optical machine company was using the trademark H.O.C.
the company made telescopes of Hino optical and Eikow.
Hino doesn't register and use the mark.
He has another trademark, H.O or H.N.O.

I knew the Hiyoshi optics that make Vixen's binoculars used the trademark H.O.C.
http://hiyoshi-opt.com/
I asked top of Hiyoshi.
He taught me that the possibility of the Hitomi used the trademark H.O.C. to telescopes for export,1960-70s is very high. .
There is not the Hitomi optical machine company, now.

Maybe, I think the telescope of most H.O.C marks was made by Hitomi.
However, it cannot be confirmed.
In the doubt, it is a doubt only of one company that really used it."-
Galakuma, post#58

http://www.cloudynig...think-so/page-3

[DMala]

The Hiyoshi website in the post quoted by Terra has an email address and email form........  any volunteer to give it a try? Feel free to send them my pictures, or let's discuss what to ask and then I can send an email.

[Bomber Bob]

I'll try emailing Miyoshi, and briefly explain to them why we're interested - because we love their vintage optics.

 

"I knew the Hiyoshi optics that make Vixen's binoculars used the trademark H.O.C."

 

Yet we have Vixen binos with the c-HOC, and a document stating a load of Swifts were made by HyOC... Unless, Galakuma is referring to HyKO, and there are two separate Hiyoshi lens makers... Oy vey!!  Well, that would explain two JB codes.

 

Like a lot of small companies, they used their city (or neighborhood in Tokyo) in their company name, which also muddled things when translated to English for export.

 

About the best we can say right now is that scopes with the c-HOC mark have better than average optics - whoever made them!

[Terra Nova]

In your own words several years ago JW, (from the same thread I quoted above):

Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:13 PM

"FWIW: I like exploring these "Who made it?" topics on CN; but, it does seem like a fool's errand. Because: It's a confusing jumble of Distributors, Assemblers, Metal Workers, and Glass Makers; and, the records are few to nonexistent. To my mind, Block HOC is probably a different Assembler from Cursive HOC. I can also see where the 1950s - 1960s Lens Makers in Japan were mostly cottage industry / mom & pop companies that took orders whenever / wherever they could get them. So, I will probably never know which company made the lenses in my Monolux 4380 (cursive HOC on the label only), but they did a great job."-

Bomber Bob (post #76)

[Bomber Bob]

No fool like an old fool...

 

But hey!  There has been some progress in 2 years.  And, we've learned a lot through all this digging, reading, and posting.  (But I probably should save some of this for retirement - to keep my mind occupied.)

[rcwolpert]

I'm still going through the Internet, trying to determine if "Hiyoshi Kogaku Co. Ltd." and "Hiyoshi Optical Company" are the same company, but translated or presented differently.  And, how many binoculars have multiple JB codes; that is, how common was it for these imports to be made by more than one company.

 

"Kogaku" means "Optical" in Japanese. That's what you see it so often in the JB listing.

[Terra Nova]

No fool like an old fool...

 

But hey!  There has been some progress in 2 years.  And, we've learned a lot through all this digging, reading, and posting.  (But I probably should save some of this for retirement - to keep my mind occupied.)

 

Yeah, and I think most of it was said in the 2010 to 2012 thread (along with original sources) that I quoted from. Oh well, the wheel keeps turning.

Edited by terraclarke, 11 November 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Terra Nova]

 

I'm still going through the Internet, trying to determine if "Hiyoshi Kogaku Co. Ltd." and "Hiyoshi Optical Company" are the same company, but translated or presented differently.  And, how many binoculars have multiple JB codes; that is, how common was it for these imports to be made by more than one company.

 

"Kogaku" means "Optical" in Japanese. That's what you see it so often in the JB listing.

 

 

Something else I had expected most of us knew. Sorry, if I am a bit negative this morning, but we all have our days.

 

I do question why this thread was ever started, rather than updating the existing 2010-2012 thread. It's this sort of thing that keeps us going in circles here.

Edited by terraclarke, 11 November 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Bomber Bob]

"Kogaku" means "Optical" in Japanese.

 

Aha!  So some translators kept the Japanese term, while others replaced it with Optical, which to me means there's just one Hiyoshi company.  Also, at some point in registering, Hiyoshi got 2 JB codes.  That's not unusual - especially in the early years.

 

I do question why this thread was ever started...

 

How much time you got?  Geek Reason #1 - I've had coding issues pop up when archiving older threads re-rendered by the latest CN presentation engine; like, losing embedded hyperlinks & pictures.  Geek Reason #2 - the new CN html makes it easier for me to add my own meta-data for searching my archive, even when in offline mode with my browser.

[Terra Nova]

All you would have had to do is write the post that started this thread in a box after the last reply in the earlier thread on this topic. It's not an archived or locked thread, its active. Then this would have been part of the original body of work, greatly faciliting further research and working against redundancy and research omissions. Much of this current threat is redundant and/or superfluous, drawing largely on meterial previously stated and derived from the previous one. In accurate historical research it is both important and necessary to use original sources, not secondary ones. After all, in the opening statement of the originating post in this thread you state: "Rather than jumping from thread to thread and repeating posts, here's a place to put what we know about the 3 variations of 3 letters, HOC." I would suggest that the body of this thread be appended to the earlier "HOC = Hino, I don't think so" thread:

http://www.cloudynig...-dont-think-so/

At any rate, I would highly recommend a thorough reading of the thread linked above to all interested parties. There is much excellent and first hand information and pictures there, and much insight to be gleaned.

Edited by terraclarke, 12 November 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Bomber Bob]

The old thread is active, but was created with a previous version of CN's web software.  Bringing up the old content in the new CN and saving it creates errors and data losses - especially the imbedded photos.

 

I save the new CN-coded threads with a [CN3] tag so I know what has to be fixed to retain old content.  But if I forget...

 

So it's easier & cleaner to save new threads with new content that render correctly when I'm offline.

 

Sometimes you'll see it if you access an old (especially pre-2010) thread directly from Google, depending on your web browser, O/S, and probably other factors.

[Bomber Bob]

I'm on my tablet now, but if you like, I'll post a screenshot of what a garbled page looks like on my PCs.

 

I'm not knocking CN, or the volunteers(?) who upgrade and maintain the site, but software upgrades often have unexpected results.  Lots of sites code for the most popular browser, which does affect us Firefox hold-outs.

 

Finally, if you don't like a thread - for whatever reason - just ignore it.  There's lots of threads I don't read, much less post on.

[rcwolpert]

Well, as you know, I work for the photonics company, Hamamatsu. I went back to them to ask about the labeling of Japanese telescopes as a favor to me. Their optical engineers in turn went to the still surviving managing directors of Hiyoshi, Hitomi and Hino Optical Company and several others to get the precise explanation. I now have two pages of summary of all the HOC, c-HOC, H.O.C., APL, SYM, and several others. Now that I see this, it's so simple!! It makes so much sense!! 

 

Unfortunately, it's company confidential information, so if I told you, they'd have to kill me.

[Bomber Bob]

Terra, here's one sample of what I mean:

 

[Bomber Bob]

I sent an email to Hiyoshi with a sample photo of the c-HOC mark.  With any luck, they won't file the message in the "Crazy American" digital dustbin!