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QHY(IC) 16200a CCD Sensor

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#1 namsel

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 08:16 PM

Is anyone familiar with this new sensor ? QHY states that it is half-way between an 8300 and 1100 full frame sensor.

 

It does not appear to be released yet however are there any beta testers in the crowd ?

 

http://www.qhyccd.com/IC16200A.html



#2 spokeshave

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 08:58 PM

Last I heard (a couple of weeks ago) there were no cameras yet for beta testing. The sensor supplier (presumably On-Semi) has had production delays. Very interesting sensor that appears to fill a much needed gap.

 

Tim



#3 spokeshave

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:05 AM

For anyone who might be interested, here is the recently-released datasheet for the KAF-16200, which is presumably the sensor used in the QHY camera:

 

http://www.onsemi.co...KAF-16200-D.PDF

 

Some notable specs:

 

Dark current: 115 e-/s, which is about half of that for the KAF-8300

Well-depth: 41ke-

QE Peak: 56%

QE Ha: 48%

 

Tim



#4 Lark Ascending

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:27 PM

For anyone who might be interested, here is the recently-released datasheet for the KAF-16200, which is presumably the sensor used in the QHY camera:

 

http://www.onsemi.co...KAF-16200-D.PDF

 

Some notable specs:

 

Dark current: 115 e-/s, which is about half of that for the KAF-8300

Well-depth: 41ke-

QE Peak: 56%

QE Ha: 48%

 

Tim

Ah, my apologies for duplicating this post!  Once I saw ON Semi had the link to the datasheet I got excited and immediately posted to CN.  Really looking forward to seeing this sensor at work.   



#5 jonbosley

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:03 AM

Compared to new CMOS chips the QE is very yesterday.



#6 Lark Ascending

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:32 PM

Compared to new CMOS chips the QE is very yesterday.

Quite true.  I'm just waiting for Sony Starvis and the like to go with bigger sensors.  Knowing how well the 11002 has done for so many years with around the same QE (somewhat apples to oranges with different pixel size) I'm sure the 16200 still has viability.  It won't likely live as long as the 8300 or 11002 once the full influx of new CMOS finally kicks in, but big CCDs continue to be very prolific imaging sensors today.  The new high QE sensors are good enough for live imaging, but they are just too small, I feel like it's been a 10 year revisit of the ICX285 and other sub-inch format sensors.  One of my scopes will comfortably illuminate a 43mm circle so I want to use as much of that as possible.

 

It's kind of interesting, though, that ON Semi would release a new sensor reminiscent of the Kodak CCDs with the same QE a decade later.  I'm still excited about its release and intend to be an early adopter. 


Edited by VegaSpec, 20 November 2015 - 12:34 PM.


#7 spokeshave

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:34 PM

Compared to new CMOS chips the QE is very yesterday.

No doubt. But where can you get a mono APS-H sized CMOS camera for less than $4000?

 

Tim



#8 PiotrM

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:37 PM

No doubt. But where can you get a mono APS-H sized CMOS camera for less than $4000?


CMOSIS CMV sensors could provide lower price (probably, as I don't know how much price goes to ultra-fast electronics and how much less would go to slower, optimized for lower noise).

More on the CCD: http://image-sensors...ew-ccd-for.html

Edited by PiotrM, 20 November 2015 - 12:46 PM.


#9 blueman

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 01:13 PM

When and if the large CMOS chips become available I will bet they too will be expensive. Most CMOS that is available at a competitive cost are small and that is not good for everyone.

This new chip is 16200 is also not cheap of course. It cost more than $3000 over the cost of the 8300 in an FLI camera. Not sure why they should cost so much though. You can buy a very nice DSLR camera for that price. Seems to me the chips are all a bit over priced really and that makes the cameras all expensive. It is strange that QHY can produce a complete camera with the 16200 chip for $4k and yet another brand can cost nearly double that and seem to charge almost that for just the chip.

Blueman



#10 GJJim

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 03:38 PM

The volume and profits these days are all in the small CMOS sensors used for smartphone cameras. This new sensor is a bigger version of the 8300, and uses a proven process line with no surprises and likely good profitability. My guess is they are squeezing the last juice out of the fruit before it's obsoleted. The future is CMOS and image multiplication at the sensor level.


Edited by GJJim, 20 November 2015 - 03:39 PM.


#11 PiotrM

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 04:35 PM

CMOSIS is profitable, and even got acquired recently. They have: http://www.cmosis.co...ea_scan_sensors APS-like and even 35mm diagonal mono CMOS sensors. The pixels are also normal 5.5 and 6.4.

Some sites say that CMV12000 (APS-like) is under $1700 while being able to do 300 FPS at 4K. Maybe a slower version with less output channels would be even cheaper (when you need low noise, not speed).

CMOS_CMOSIS.png

Edited by PiotrM, 20 November 2015 - 04:40 PM.


#12 andysea

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 01:48 PM

Doesn't QHY use an engineering grade sensor for this new camera? That would make a big difference in cost. 



#13 Per Frejvall

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 02:24 PM

FLI has a $1000 difference between a grade 1 and a grade 2 sensor... $7495 for grade 1 and shutter. This is definitely on my list, and it will come from FLI.

 

The QE of this sensor is quite a bit up from the KAF-8300, more so than just the difference between 5.4um and 6um.

 

With a Tak 106 and a TEC-140, the real estate is the most important factor for me, so nothing Sony as of yet.

 

/per



#14 blueman

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 02:22 AM

FLI has a $1000 difference between a grade 1 and a grade 2 sensor... $7495 for grade 1 and shutter. This is definitely on my list, and it will come from FLI.

 

The QE of this sensor is quite a bit up from the KAF-8300, more so than just the difference between 5.4um and 6um.

 

With a Tak 106 and a TEC-140, the real estate is the most important factor for me, so nothing Sony as of yet.

 

/per

I spoke with FLI about this camera and chip. They are waiting for chips from ON and they said they would contact me when they become available and the cameras can be purchased. I like the class 1 too.

Blueman



#15 JJK

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 09:42 AM

 

FLI has a $1000 difference between a grade 1 and a grade 2 sensor... $7495 for grade 1 and shutter. This is definitely on my list, and it will come from FLI.

 

The QE of this sensor is quite a bit up from the KAF-8300, more so than just the difference between 5.4um and 6um.

 

With a Tak 106 and a TEC-140, the real estate is the most important factor for me, so nothing Sony as of yet.

 

/per

I spoke with FLI about this camera and chip. They are waiting for chips from ON and they said they would contact me when they become available and the cameras can be purchased. I like the class 1 too.

Blueman

 

I've asked FLI to ship me one once it's ready to go.



#16 blueman

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 02:59 PM

 

 

FLI has a $1000 difference between a grade 1 and a grade 2 sensor... $7495 for grade 1 and shutter. This is definitely on my list, and it will come from FLI.

 

The QE of this sensor is quite a bit up from the KAF-8300, more so than just the difference between 5.4um and 6um.

 

With a Tak 106 and a TEC-140, the real estate is the most important factor for me, so nothing Sony as of yet.

 

/per

I spoke with FLI about this camera and chip. They are waiting for chips from ON and they said they would contact me when they become available and the cameras can be purchased. I like the class 1 too.

Blueman

 

I've asked FLI to ship me one once it's ready to go.

 

I will likely buy the ML16200 when it is available. I like the specs and the size and the fact that you can use the 2" unmounted filters with it. Noise is less than the 8300 at faster MHz which is a good thing. Pixels size is a nice, not too small or too big.

My 8300 has served me for over 6 years now and it still works great. Very little change in the darks and flats too shows the chip has not degraded. FLI cameras seem to be top quality though they are not the cheapest.

Blueman



#17 akulapanam

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 08:10 PM

FLI charges a huge premium for the name and usually about 10 degrees more cooling. According to Pavel Pechs site the read noise is actually better on Monrovian.

 

I would expect we will see these chips appear in SBig and Monrovian cameras as well.



#18 blueman

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 10:18 PM

FLI charges a huge premium for the name and usually about 10 degrees more cooling. According to Pavel Pechs site the read noise is actually better on Monrovian.

 

I would expect we will see these chips appear in SBig and Monrovian cameras as well.

Could be but I do prefer USA products for their easier service and access to the manufacturer.

Blueman 



#19 hytham

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 10:26 PM

 

FLI charges a huge premium for the name and usually about 10 degrees more cooling. According to Pavel Pechs site the read noise is actually better on Monrovian.

 

I would expect we will see these chips appear in SBig and Monrovian cameras as well.

Could be but I do prefer USA products for their easier service and access to the manufacturer.

Blueman 

 

This over and over again!
 

I'm not degrading Moravian at all, but being in the Czech Republic isn't comforting when it comes to easy accessibility for support. I, at times, worry about my Tak and if it ever needs support because back to Japan it will go!



#20 Terry R

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 11:04 PM

I find the comments about support support amusing.  I have a SBIG STL-11000.  There are no parts for these cameras.  Try to source an 8 filter wheel, desiccant plug, or other bits.  As soon as the new crop of cameras were release, nothing was available. Outstanding support.



#21 WesC

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 11:57 PM

Its MORAVIAN not "Monrovian"



#22 blueman

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 02:39 AM

 

 

FLI charges a huge premium for the name and usually about 10 degrees more cooling. According to Pavel Pechs site the read noise is actually better on Monrovian.

 

I would expect we will see these chips appear in SBig and Monrovian cameras as well.

Could be but I do prefer USA products for their easier service and access to the manufacturer.

Blueman 

 

This over and over again!
 

I'm not degrading Moravian at all, but being in the Czech Republic isn't comforting when it comes to easy accessibility for support. I, at times, worry about my Tak and if it ever needs support because back to Japan it will go!

 

I certain understand you situation. It is not easy to get to manufacturers for everyone. I choose American made when I can because I am in the USA. I would probably think differently if I were not.

Blueman



#23 hungerford

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 09:32 AM

US made products are usually superb but unfortunately the cost of shipping back to the US from Europe is astronomical.

I have got a faulty Titan mount and now it is used as a lamp stand as no one can fix it and the shipping cost to the US is around $800 one way and that is not adding the custom issues and cost. 

Vince



#24 JJK

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 09:43 AM

Having to pay customs fees on repaired items makes no sense.  Been there, done that.



#25 hytham

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 12:42 PM

 

 

 

FLI charges a huge premium for the name and usually about 10 degrees more cooling. According to Pavel Pechs site the read noise is actually better on Monrovian.

 

I would expect we will see these chips appear in SBig and Monrovian cameras as well.

Could be but I do prefer USA products for their easier service and access to the manufacturer.

Blueman 

 

This over and over again!
 

I'm not degrading Moravian at all, but being in the Czech Republic isn't comforting when it comes to easy accessibility for support. I, at times, worry about my Tak and if it ever needs support because back to Japan it will go!

 

I certain understand you situation. It is not easy to get to manufacturers for everyone. I choose American made when I can because I am in the USA. I would probably think differently if I were not.

Blueman

 

 

Just to be clear I was absolutely agreeing with you and why I bought my FLI and kinda sorta regret buying Takahashi.




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