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Classic Jaegers in the Land of Synta

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#26 stevep

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 07:46 PM

 The 6" lenses are Fraunhofer doublets.

 

Some are, the f15's that I have seen photos of seem to be Fraunhofer, 6 foil spacers, but I think the f10's came in both flavours, I have seen photo's of f10 versions with foil spacers and Baker ring spaced versions, mine ''that's looks like yours, ATM'' is Baker with ring spacer,

 

Regards

Steve



#27 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 05:08 AM

Hello Terra.  The PVC is certainly cheap and easy with minimal tools.  I have no way to determine if sagging is an issue-all I could do is try and minimize the possibility.  Both ends are kept round, the cell end with PVC connector piece, and the focuser end with a wooden plug.  The mounting, a Berry type dob mount I'll post some pictures of, holds the tube near the middle with a good 8 or 10 inches of width.  The 6 inch gets some weight with the glass-but the Chinese PVC  seems pretty thick. the attached image shows the cell end of the 150mm tube.

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#28 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 05:17 AM

Hi Dave- Nice to hear from you.

Believe it or not, in my notebook I've been keeping for the building and testing of these scopes, I put your mantra right on the first page:  “Engineering: Taking what you have and making what you need.”  

This has been a challenge for me.  We architects are trained to buy what's fancy and make it look good.  If by chance it happens to also work-well, then that's ok.  I joke.  But I have been trying to adapt my thinking, and my situation here has helped me to do this.  


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#29 happylimpet

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 07:38 AM

Very interesting thread, especially as a habitual Synta buyer! Keep up the good work.



#30 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:18 AM

It's great David G and Bremms agree on the thickness for the Baker 4inch.  I ended up, through trial and error and digging up an old Baker article,  a touch over 1/8, so I am a little smaller.  

 

For the 6inch I used 6 rather than three spaces, at .005.  I used 8 layers of aluminum foil, (64 layers = one millimeter). I checked the thickness of 8 layers multiple ways and got the same answer.  8 layers is thicker than the masking tape that SS put on the lens for their "testing".

 

The image shows a wide spacing attempt for the Baker design.  I ended up using wire for spacing.

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#31 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:24 AM

As for the mounting- I used a refractor dobsonian-style mount ala Berry.  From my apartment the south balcony had a very strong corner railing facing southwest.  I decided that my best option (based on neighboring buildings and a mall down the block) was use this corner, limiting my view to the quarter of the sky between south and west, up to the zenith.  This direction looks out over a lake, so it was a little darker.  Using some pine (not easy to buy here-had to travel to a British B&Q  to get it) I built a very sturdy corner platform.

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#32 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:28 AM

My goal was to build one mount for both scopes.  So I sized the mount so that I could easily set either scope in.  Here is the 4 inch telescope's holder set into the common mount.

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#33 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:30 AM

This image shows the 4inch in the mount (testing on the dining room table).

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  • 24 4 in mounted.jpg

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#34 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:31 AM

And here is the 6inch in the same mount.

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  • 25 6 in mounted.jpg

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#35 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:33 AM

Here is the mount in place outside.

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#36 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:34 AM

And the two scopes outside at night.

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#37 Rich (RLTYS)

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 08:51 AM

Wow! That is one great setup.  :waytogo:

 

Rich (RLTYS)



#38 terraclarke

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 09:58 AM

Necessity is certainly the mother of invention. I am impressed. I love the way you have not only worked with the limited materials available, but also the limited amount of sky and it's limiting conditions to find viable astronomical solutions. Good job! I am forever reminded that we amateur astronomers are certainly both an adventitious and highly adaptive species! We can adapt ourselves to seemingly the harshest environments and still find joy "looking up!"


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#39 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 07:42 AM

Thanks for the comments, Terra and all.

 

Regarding the quality of these two lenses.  

On the one hand, the scopes both give pleasing views of the moon, Jupiter, and a few other objects that occasionally poke through the haze.  Many people who had never before looked through a telescope got their first views through these scopes.  This is priceless, and the scopes are of fine quality for this.  I eventually cut down the 4in to optimize it for a binoviewer.  With a pair of older Meade 4000 13.8 SWAs and a green filter the views of the moon are pretty great.  (the image shows a handheld camera at the lens.)

 

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#40 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 08:00 AM

On the other hand, with some star testing over many nights over a few months, and with attempts at masking and                                                                 adjusting, my opinion is that the quality of these lenses is modest, probably not as good as quarter wave.  

 

I don't have a flat here-so I really worked on learning star testing.  (I was tutored in autocollimation testing  by David G and Dick Parker at Delmarva and folks at Stellafane, and I've got a setup in the US).  

 

Here, I was using the Suiter book, and I’ve been reading the book by Cooke, “On the Adjustment and Testing of Telescope Objectives.” 1899.  Good book, recommended by David Grotski.  The main star testing chart is good, I spent time transferring the key directly to the chart.  Then pages 29, Spherical Aberration, to 31 zonal aberration, to 33, perfect figure, to 34, The Star Image.  This book of free for download-just Google it.

 

An example of some of my notes on the 6inch f/10.

"At focus pretty nice (as much as I could discern through turbulence).  Star, and one clear ring, some flaring as I move my eye.  It is cleaner with the #58A green filter.  Not very much extraneous junk in the image (at least as I could make out in the turbulence).  

 

 

I then tried the #11 yellow-green filter. 
Inside focus:
-bright outer ring, fuzzy on the outer edge
-pronounced dark first ring
-now and then when it is still, nice concentric rings, maybe five inside first dark ring
-views fuzzier without the filter, but I still see the same

Outside Focus:
-bright ring, then purple color over the rings inside
-this side looks a bit cleaner, sharper
-less fuzzy outside the outer ring

Later in the evening Sirius came into viewing range of the scope as mounted.

Sirius, At focus:
-Pretty dancy, can see a good ring around the center star, but dancy flaring

Inside Focus:
-What I saw on the other star, just brighter
-good circles
-hairy outer ring
-strong first dark ring

Outside Focus:
-purple now only strongly on the central 1/3 of the image
-rings are clearly defined
-hairy outer, strong first disk
-pretty even brightness, outside to the center

OVERALL EVALUATION:

Observations:
1. nice concentric rings both sides
2. number of rings are the same both sides, with equal focuser travel
3. outer ring is a bit fuzzier on the inside, maybe a bit cleaner on the outside
4. the bright outer ring is the same both sides, first dark ring is the same, then even illumination to the center, both sides.

Therefor, as interpretation:
1. -there is no stig
-lens elements are aligned well in the cell

2. I have a decent comparison set up.

3. So, outer ring is a bit hairier on one side, and a bit cleaner on the other.  Maybe this is a slight turned down edge?  Green filters 58 and 11, help this by diminishing the effect.

4. illumination of outer ring, first dark ring, and 5 or 6 rings to center are pretty even both sides, meaning so significant SA, and no zones (so far as I can see on this evening)

Conclusion:
Based on this data, I have the lens well mounted in the cell, and the tube works well for it to produce a decent image.

The overall quality is still unclear, but the possible range is, I believe, from OK to good.  This is based on the star testing so far, and the fact that I can push powers on the moon to well above 200X on nights when the seeing is modest.  A two times barlow, at well over 400X, was not super sharp on these evenings, though.  This is a quality lens, but maybe not a high quality lens.  This lens provides some very nice views of the moon.



#41 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 08:08 AM

With the 4 inch I tried a little star-test imaging, not so successfully.  Attached is an image of two tests, the upper in July of 14, and the lower in Jan. of 15.  (I hesitate to show these images-they are not the result of good testing procedure- just my iphone held to the eyepiece.)

 

 I remade the cell of this scope after the July of 14 test and got rid of flaring. I also made a 2 inch Cheshire off plans from the web.

 

4 inch F/15 sample star test notes:

Inside- 1/8 about defocus, a heavy outer ring with a fuzziness emanating out, like a drawing of a star.  Then, a dark ring, very pronounced.  Then four or five inner rings leading to a center.  The rings were concentric to my eyes. 

Outside: 1/8 defocus, an outer bright ring (brighter than inside, due to concentration?) and not nearly as fuzzy.  Then a dark ring, not as pronounced, then four or five rings to a center.  The center, interestingly, and maybe out a ring or so, was a strong blue/purple color.  The rings seemed concentric.

 

 

A testing protocol recommended by the late Thomas Back:

-don’t use a diagonal in testing 
-turbulence can lead to softening outside of focus (scope focuses on upper atmosphere) (does pollution do anything here?)
-categories of description he uses:
-thickness
-brightness
-texture
-hardness, softness

He says as a protocol:
1. (spherical) to defocus 5 or 6 and look at the outer ring
2. (zones) to defocus 8 to 10 and look for bright, thin rings (dim on the other side)
3. to 1 or 2 rings, looking for perfect symmetry airy disk to first ring, and identical focuser travel

Attached Thumbnails

  • 32 Testing.png


#42 drd715

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 09:28 PM

Built my 6"F10 as a stop gap until my D&G 6" F12 was done. The lens proved to have a very good figure and Barry was way behind due to moving and other production issues. So I recently canceled my D&G F12 after a 3 year wait. I am very fond  D&G scopes and like Barry, but I realize these lenses are a side hustle for him. Had two 5" F12's from him and both were superb.  When I first used the Jaegers, I expected the 5" F12 D&G would easily outperform the 6" F10.. Uhhh Nope. the 6" F10 Jaegers had the same quality of figure and produced images that were a little better due to the increased aperture. It's a lifetime keeper.

 
 
Interesting, I ordered a D&G 6 inch F-12 cell in early April of 2013. Got an email from Barry in November 2015 that he is still working on it.  Finished the tube other than the final paint January 2015. Carbon fiber with 3 mm  hex core, 7 inch OD  1 pound per foot extremely strong with no flex at all.  If I ever get to finish the project I will write it up especially the tube build as it was simple to make.

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  • 20150202_180835.jpg

Edited by drd715, 15 December 2015 - 10:18 PM.

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#43 bremms

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 09:50 PM

 

 Built my 6"F10 as a stop gap until my D&G 6" F12 was done. The lens proved to have a very good figure and Barry was way behind due to moving and other production issues. So I recently canceled my D&G F12 after a 3 year wait. I am very fond  D&G scopes and like Barry, but I realize these lenses are a side hustle for him. Had two 5" F12's from him and both were superb.  When I first used the Jaegers, I expected the 5" F12 D&G would easily outperform the 6" F10.. Uhhh Nope. the 6" F10 Jaegers had the same quality of figure and produced images that were a little better due to the increased aperture. It's a lifetime keeper.

 

 

Interesting, I ordered a D&G 6 inch F-12 cell in early April of 2013. Got an email from Barry in November 2015 that he is still working on it.  Finished the tube other than the final paint January 2015. Carbon fiber with 3 mm  hex core, 7 inch OD  1 pound per foot extremely strong with no flex at all.  If I ever get to finish the project I will write it up especially the tube build as it was simple to make.  

 

I'm not in the que anymore. My deposit bought a vintage 14.5" Ed Beck mirror with $220 left over. Decided I already have a VERY good 6" achromat. Have a tube cut to length, but didn't make a rear cell for the AP focuser. It will be worth the wait. My 5" F12( both of them) were superb.



#44 drd715

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 10:29 PM

Built my 6"F10 as a stop gap until my D&G 6" F12 was done. The lens proved to have a very good figure and Barry was way behind due to moving and other production issues. So I recently canceled my D&G F12 after a 3 year wait. I am very fond  D&G scopes and like Barry, but I realize these lenses are a side hustle for him. Had two 5" F12's from him and both were superb.  When I first used the Jaegers, I expected the 5" F12 D&G would easily outperform the 6" F10.. Uhhh Nope. the 6" F10 Jaegers had the same quality of figure and produced images that were a little better due to the increased aperture. It's a lifetime keeper.

 
 
Interesting, I ordered a D&G 6 inch F-12 cell in early April of 2013. Got an email from Barry in November 2015 that he is still working on it.  Finished the tube other than the final paint January 2015. Carbon fiber with 3 mm  hex core, 7 inch OD  1 pound per foot extremely strong with no flex at all.  If I ever get to finish the project I will write it up especially the tube build as it was simple to make.

I'm not in the que anymore. My deposit bought a vintage 14.5" Ed Beck mirror with $220 left over. Decided I already have a VERY good 6" achromat. Have a tube cut to length, but didn't make a rear cell for the AP focuser. It will be worth the wait. My 5" F12( both of them) were superb.


I thought about getting a 5 inch F-15 vrs the 6 F -12, but I have a 5 inch so wanted to up it a little. I have all the anodizing done, the rings from Stellarvue, bars from ADM, and am waiting for the cell to properly place the baffles with a final tube length and paint.
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#45 bremms

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 08:55 AM

 

 

 

Built my 6"F10 as a stop gap until my D&G 6" F12 was done. The lens proved to have a very good figure and Barry was way behind due to moving and other production issues. So I recently canceled my D&G F12 after a 3 year wait. I am very fond  D&G scopes and like Barry, but I realize these lenses are a side hustle for him. Had two 5" F12's from him and both were superb.  When I first used the Jaegers, I expected the 5" F12 D&G would easily outperform the 6" F10.. Uhhh Nope. the 6" F10 Jaegers had the same quality of figure and produced images that were a little better due to the increased aperture. It's a lifetime keeper.

 
 
Interesting, I ordered a D&G 6 inch F-12 cell in early April of 2013. Got an email from Barry in November 2015 that he is still working on it.  Finished the tube other than the final paint January 2015. Carbon fiber with 3 mm  hex core, 7 inch OD  1 pound per foot extremely strong with no flex at all.  If I ever get to finish the project I will write it up especially the tube build as it was simple to make.

 

I'm not in the que anymore. My deposit bought a vintage 14.5" Ed Beck mirror with $220 left over. Decided I already have a VERY good 6" achromat. Have a tube cut to length, but didn't make a rear cell for the AP focuser. It will be worth the wait. My 5" F12( both of them) were superb.

 


I thought about getting a 5 inch F-15 vrs the 6 F -12, but I have a 5 inch so wanted to up it a little. I have all the anodizing done, the rings from Stellarvue, bars from ADM, and am waiting for the cell to properly place the baffles with a final tube length and paint.

 

The counter cell fits flush with the end of the tube. The lens optical center is about 1.5 inches from the front edge of the counter cell. Barry can send you drawings or measurements so you can place the baffles.



#46 drd715

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:33 PM

Built my 6"F10 as a stop gap until my D&G 6" F12 was done. The lens proved to have a very good figure and Barry was way behind due to moving and other production issues. So I recently canceled my D&G F12 after a 3 year wait. I am very fond  D&G scopes and like Barry, but I realize these lenses are a side hustle for him. Had two 5" F12's from him and both were superb.  When I first used the Jaegers, I expected the 5" F12 D&G would easily outperform the 6" F10.. Uhhh Nope. the 6" F10 Jaegers had the same quality of figure and produced images that were a little better due to the increased aperture. It's a lifetime keeper.

 
 
Interesting, I ordered a D&G 6 inch F-12 cell in early April of 2013. Got an email from Barry in November 2015 that he is still working on it.  Finished the tube other than the final paint January 2015. Carbon fiber with 3 mm  hex core, 7 inch OD  1 pound per foot extremely strong with no flex at all.  If I ever get to finish the project I will write it up especially the tube build as it was simple to make.

I'm not in the que anymore. My deposit bought a vintage 14.5" Ed Beck mirror with $220 left over. Decided I already have a VERY good 6" achromat. Have a tube cut to length, but didn't make a rear cell for the AP focuser. It will be worth the wait. My 5" F12( both of them) were superb.


I thought about getting a 5 inch F-15 vrs the 6 F -12, but I have a 5 inch so wanted to up it a little. I have all the anodizing done, the rings from Stellarvue, bars from ADM, and am waiting for the cell to properly place the baffles with a final tube length and paint.

The counter cell fits flush with the end of the tube. The lens optical center is about 1.5 inches from the front edge of the counter cell. Barry can send you drawings or measurements so you can place the baffles.

 
maybe I can get Barry to send out the counter cell for fitment.  I intend to assemble the parts rather raw and find the best tube length to make a final cut for minimum worst case draw tube un-extended focus.  Can always shorten, trying to lengthen not so easy.  I will be doing something unusual with the baffles.  They will be cone shaped so any light will not be reflected back up the tube to bounce off the inside of the lens, but make multiple strikes between cone and tube wall while dissipating.  The biggest decision now is to find a paint for the inside of the tube that will absorb the light, some special stuff like stealth aircraft.  I'm looking for maximum contrast black background views.  You can see in the picture the tube end adaptor was made from a scuba cylinder which had failed hydro.  It is over 1/2 inch thick with a 3mm + groove in the face of the side wall 1 inch deep for the carbon tube to insert into.  12 inches of the remaining cylinder was machined to fit the CGEM-DX tripod as an extension.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 20150202_180351.jpg

Edited by drd715, 16 December 2015 - 11:44 PM.


#47 drd715

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:56 PM

20150202_175759.jpg
more pictures
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#48 Chuck Hards

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:51 AM

Come on, guys, you've hijacked Andrew's thread.  Start a new one if this is going to go on for a while.

 

Thanks!


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#49 Andrew Johnston

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:14 PM

What is interesting to me is that I am seeing the steps I'll do once back in the US with some good tools and shop access.  PVC allows me to make some very usable scopes.  When I move back to the US (which is coming very soon)  I'll not bother moving the PVC creations.


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#50 drd715

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:44 PM

What is interesting to me is that I am seeing the steps I'll do once back in the US with some good tools and shop access.  PVC allows me to make some very usable scopes.  When I move back to the US (which is coming very soon)  I'll not bother moving the PVC creations.

 

 

Andrew,  it is kind of fun making things out of repurposed material like the old aluminum dive tank, even though I had to have a friend with a lathe work the metal to my drawings. I did use some costly supplies in making up the tube and in purchasing such items as the dovetail bar which I must say ADM can do it better and cheaper. The  tube was most fun. It uses a pvc pipe as a mold for laying up the carbon epoxy (split one side of the pipe on a table saw using 2 rip fences and a vertical blade follower to keep the PVC from collapsing behind the blade as it pushes through).  Pry the tube open slightly and inserted a 1/4 inch aluminum flat bar in the slot. A little body putty and you have a mold that will collapse inside the layup for extraction.  Put a round plywood plug in each end with a 1 and 1/4 center hole for a metal fence pipe and you can roll the mold during layup.  A 6 inch ID pvc  pipe will make a 7 inch OD finished tube   . I did not use a fancy shop, just built it in the driveway over a plywood drip catcher. I will post a complete description (in it's own thread) when I get the whole project finished.  

 

The  Chinese people must be interesting to interact with. Maybe you can make some friends over at Synta. It would be nice to bring back some lens cells for your future projects.  Is that just their office across the street or do they manufacture there also?  If you can find a fellow enthusiast over there maybe you could get a tour of the shop. Best of luck and Merry Christmas. - Dan - 


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