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Eyepiece question for APM 100mm APos

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#26 Allardk

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 06:17 AM

So wrapping it all up it seems the APM works between 22mm (Vixen) up to about 7mm (Televue). Pushing it outside these "limits" puts you in the area of its limitations. As Clint Eastwood once said:" A man gotta know his limitations "  :lol:

 

Seems most agree the APM shines with the Docter 12.5mm. So depending on how you wanna use it you can add one or 2 sets, going up or down in magnification/FOV.

 

Agree with Matt sometimes a comment can give a complete wrong impression of a piece of equipment.



#27 junomike

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 07:55 AM

 

 

And that vignette is your fault Mr Bill. Your review triggered Markus Ludes to change field stop to 23mm which did not help with the finger nails but made 24mm Panoptics to vignette significantly. Very bad change.

Not so sure you can blame the "messenger" on this one?

Also, I thought the FS was removable?

For what it's worth, I find my (original/first release) APM 100 Semi Apo's  fine using the 24mm Pans (not sure of the FS in them however).  Minimal Vignetting.

 

Mike

 

 

I suspect you also have 25mm. There is a bit of vignetting with the 25mm as 24Pans have a 27mm fieldstop.

 

This is correct and  I find it acceptable, although not as acceptable as using the 24P's in my TV BV's.

 

Mike



#28 Richard Low

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 10:39 AM

 

And that vignette is your fault Mr Bill. Your review triggered Markus Ludes to change field stop to 23mm which did not help with the finger nails but made 24mm Panoptics to vignette significantly. Very bad change.

Not so sure you can blame the "messenger" on this one?

Also, I thought the FS was removable?

For what it's worth, I find my (original/first release) APM 100 Semi Apo's  fine using the 24mm Pans (not sure of the FS in them however).  Minimal Vignetting.

 

Mike

 

Three weeks ago I asked Markus Ludes what is the clear aperture in the current stock of APM 100ED APO Binos and which low-power pair is more suitable with less "false pupil" problem brought up by Mr Bill. His reply is that they all have 23 mm, and he himself is using 24mm Panoptic and he likes it. Yeah, we should not blame the messenger or anyone indeed. Some may like it while others may not. I have one 24 Pan so I will check it before I pair it up. YMMV.


Edited by Richard Low, 23 January 2016 - 11:33 AM.


#29 GamesForOne

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 12:20 PM

i have the 23mm stops and have never noticed the vignetting in neither my 24mm ES68's nor my 32mm Plossl.

Of course that may only be because I never looked for it :)

 

Ok, Agena Astro has the 32mm Baader Classic Plossl's on sale. I picked up two on your recommendation. :coolnod:

 

---

Michael Mc



#30 Mad Matt

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 12:37 PM

Ok, Agena Astro has the 32mm Baader Classic Plossl's on sale. I picked up two on your recommendation. :coolnod:

---
Michael Mc


I think they are the best of the "non TV" ploessl's.

The coatings are top notch. Much better then the othe Chinese ploessl's I have.

#31 Rich V.

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 12:53 PM

 

 

 

And that vignette is your fault Mr Bill. Your review triggered Markus Ludes to change field stop to 23mm which did not help with the finger nails but made 24mm Panoptics to vignette significantly. Very bad change.

Not so sure you can blame the "messenger" on this one?

Also, I thought the FS was removable?

For what it's worth, I find my (original/first release) APM 100 Semi Apo's  fine using the 24mm Pans (not sure of the FS in them however).  Minimal Vignetting.

 

Mike

 

 

I suspect you also have 25mm. There is a bit of vignetting with the 25mm as 24Pans have a 27mm fieldstop.

 

This is correct and  I find it acceptable, although not as acceptable as using the 24P's in my TV BV's.

 

Mike

 

 

While Mr. Bill was indeed the "messenger" of the false exit pupil problem in the apos, it's no fault of his that the "fix" was a rather ineffective stopping down of the rear prism aperture ahead of the eyepiece field lens.

 

If I recall correctly, we measured the APM "semi-apos" as having around a 22mm rear prism aperture, certainly not 25mm like the original "apos" when released.  In the semi-apos there is a 20mm aperture stop located between the 45° Schmidt prism and the rhomb turret prism which pretty effectively blocks out the unwanted interior prism reflections. This stop appears to be missing in the "apos" resulting in the reflections.  

 

In the semi-apos, I recall the FOV of the 19mm Pans was well illuminated but the 24 Pans noticeably dimmed a bit at the edge.  Bill and I concluded that the design was optimized for 19mm or 20mm 68° eyepieces with ~22mm field stops.  

 

His apos did a better job of illuminating the FOV with 24 Pans but not as well as his Obie BT100s with their larger prisms.

 

A choice seems to have been made during the design phase of the apos not to incorporate a baffle ahead of turret prisms as a trade off to achieve the greatest illumination profile and widest FOV with 24 Pans. 

 

Rich



#32 Mad Matt

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 01:19 PM

No blame should go to Mr Bill. Knowing Markus, I am certain he and a few of the partners he works closely with also noticed the problem and the manufacturers solution was the stops sized as the are now.

#33 Skittersqueek

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 02:14 PM

Well you guys sure make it easy on a guy trying to pick :undecided: .... I am pretty sure I am going to grab the Docters for starters as

 

1. I found a pair for a really good price.

 

2. If I don't get them now I will probably not get them for a long time or never at all then regret not getting them in the first place.

 

Most likely I acquire a high magnification piece as my secondary for the planets that scream at me to get a look at them. My thoughts are the Docters won't provide enough magnification to get the look at Jupiter and Saturn that I want. (Yes I know the APM isn't a dedicated planet observer but from all the forum posts I've been looking through it seems I can get at least a somewhat pleasing result with a high mag EP.) 

 

What the Docters will be able to do for me is give pleasing views of all those clusters around Cassiopeia, Auriga, and let us not forget the nebula and other little goodies floating about.

 

 

You guys are a good group for info and if I didn't find this site sometime ago I am afraid I would definitely of made a couple more amateur mistakes than need be on me and my wallet :lol: .



#34 Mr. Bill

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 02:20 PM

No blame should go to Mr Bill. Knowing Markus, I am certain he and a few of the partners he works closely with also noticed the problem and the manufacturers solution was the stops sized as the are now.

 

There was a lot of initial denial from both users and Markus when I first brought up the false pupil/ghosting issue ..... :sleuth:


Edited by Mr. Bill, 23 January 2016 - 05:31 PM.


#35 Mad Matt

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 02:42 PM

there was a lot of denial from both users and Markus when I brought this up initially.....:sleuth:


And that's unusual? We are talking about The same Markus aren't we? :) :) :)

Edited by Mad Matt, 23 January 2016 - 02:44 PM.


#36 junomike

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 04:01 PM

 

 

 

 

And that vignette is your fault Mr Bill. Your review triggered Markus Ludes to change field stop to 23mm which did not help with the finger nails but made 24mm Panoptics to vignette significantly. Very bad change.

Not so sure you can blame the "messenger" on this one?

Also, I thought the FS was removable?

For what it's worth, I find my (original/first release) APM 100 Semi Apo's  fine using the 24mm Pans (not sure of the FS in them however).  Minimal Vignetting.

 

Mike

 

 

I suspect you also have 25mm. There is a bit of vignetting with the 25mm as 24Pans have a 27mm fieldstop.

 

This is correct and  I find it acceptable, although not as acceptable as using the 24P's in my TV BV's.

 

Mike

 

 

While Mr. Bill was indeed the "messenger" of the false exit pupil problem in the apos, it's no fault of his that the "fix" was a rather ineffective stopping down of the rear prism aperture ahead of the eyepiece field lens.

 

If I recall correctly, we measured the APM "semi-apos" as having around a 22mm rear prism aperture, certainly not 25mm like the original "apos" when released.  In the semi-apos there is a 20mm aperture stop located between the 45° Schmidt prism and the rhomb turret prism which pretty effectively blocks out the unwanted interior prism reflections. This stop appears to be missing in the "apos" resulting in the reflections.  

 

In the semi-apos, I recall the FOV of the 19mm Pans was well illuminated but the 24 Pans noticeably dimmed a bit at the edge.  Bill and I concluded that the design was optimized for 19mm or 20mm 68° eyepieces with ~22mm field stops.  

 

His apos did a better job of illuminating the FOV with 24 Pans but not as well as his Obie BT100s with their larger prisms.

 

A choice seems to have been made during the design phase of the apos not to incorporate a baffle ahead of turret prisms as a trade off to achieve the greatest illumination profile and widest FOV with 24 Pans. 

 

Rich

 

 

Thanks for the clarification and added Info Rich.  I find the 19mm Pans more than enough FOV  with the 500mm F/L for most DSO's and those that do benefit with an increase in FOV (M31) seem ok with the 24mm Pans. I will note to check the "drop-off" next outing.

 

I am contemplating the Apo version (in time) but now with the 90 Degree's out there, I'm debating between them or the cheaper 45 Degree.

 

Mike



#37 Allardk

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 05:22 PM

Any recommendations from the APM "group" for high power planetary eyepieces ?


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#38 Mad Matt

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 05:29 PM

6-3 Nagler zooms work really well for me

#39 Mike Harvey

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 05:11 AM

Before "discovering" the Docters, I had tried 8 other types and focal length eyepieces. 

Now the Docs stay in the binoculars 90% of the time.

 

Even though I've been an ETHOS  fan from "day one", and considered the 13mms to be perhaps the best eyepiece ever.... there is some kind of 'mojo' when those Docters are in the APMs that defies easy explanation.



#40 Skittersqueek

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 05:16 AM

Well I come from the MoJo Nation so Docters it is! Now I just need to play the waiting game for all my stuff to arrive :grin:.

 

 

Skitter



#41 Richard Low

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:26 AM

Before "discovering" the Docters, I had tried 8 other types and focal length eyepieces. 

Now the Docs stay in the binoculars 90% of the time.

 

Even though I've been an ETHOS  fan from "day one", and considered the 13mms to be perhaps the best eyepiece ever.... there is some kind of 'mojo' when those Docters are in the APMs that defies easy explanation.

 

Well...it looks like almost everyone cannot stop talking about the Doctor 12.5mm on the APM 100ED APO Bino.

Perhaps Markus should package the pair of Doctor 12.5mm at a special price with the APM 100ED APO Bino as "The APM 44x100mm ED APO Binocular" with interchangeable 1.25" eyepiece option.



#42 Mad Matt

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 10:31 AM

He can't sell 'em fast enough as it is. He only makes deals on stuff that isn't moving fast enough... Just like every good business man (or woman) should do :-)

Edited by Mad Matt, 24 January 2016 - 10:32 AM.


#43 blueskydown

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 07:14 PM

6-3 Nagler zooms work really well for me

 

Has anyone experienced problems merging images with the Nagler 3-6 Zoom with the APO?

I find that I have to leave one of the focuser/compression rings completely loose and the other tight in order to merg images with the 3-6 zoom satisfactorily....



#44 range88

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:16 PM


6-3 Nagler zooms work really well for me


Has anyone experienced problems merging images with the Nagler 3-6 Zoom with the APO?
I find that I have to leave one of the focuser/compression rings completely loose and the other tight in order to merg images with the 3-6 zoom satisfactorily....

For my model, 4mm is the threashold.
Sometime you may need to rotate the eyepieces to reach perfect colimation.

#45 Richard Low

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 12:23 AM

 

 

6-3 Nagler zooms work really well for me


Has anyone experienced problems merging images with the Nagler 3-6 Zoom with the APO?
I find that I have to leave one of the focuser/compression rings completely loose and the other tight in order to merg images with the 3-6 zoom satisfactorily....

For my model, 4mm is the threashold.
Sometime you may need to rotate the eyepieces to reach perfect colimation.

 

 

4mm eyepiece on APM 100 ED APO bino gives only 137.5x magnification.

 

I find it interesting to note that only APM 100 ED APO binos bought directly from APM gets additional APM QC with Wellenform collimation and alignment certificate. Markus says that collimation warranty is up to 100x magnification, but in practice about 98% of buyers are able to use beyond 150x magnification. Refer to this link: 

 

http://www.astromart...ified_id=889053



#46 range88

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 02:23 AM


6-3 Nagler zooms work really well for me

Has anyone experienced problems merging images with the Nagler 3-6 Zoom with the APO?
I find that I have to leave one of the focuser/compression rings completely loose and the other tight in order to merg images with the 3-6 zoom satisfactorily....
For my model, 4mm is the threashold.
Sometime you may need to rotate the eyepieces to reach perfect colimation.

4mm eyepiece on APM 100 ED APO bino gives only 137.5x magnification.

I find it interesting to note that only APM 100 ED APO binos bought directly from APM gets additional APM QC with Wellenform collimation and alignment certificate. Markus says that collimation warranty is up to 100x magnification, but in practice about 98% of buyers are able to use beyond 150x magnification. Refer to this link:

http://www.astromart...ified_id=889053

I usually don't go beyond 70x. You may collimate them by yourself if needed. APM has a dedicated collimator for sale.

#47 Skittersqueek

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 03:30 AM

I opted for the 150x collimation as it is my only visual instrument.


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#48 blueskydown

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 06:26 AM

I am able merge images at 3mm with the Nagler Zoom, but again, it requires having one compression ring loose, and the other tight. I wonder if this relates to an issue with the eyepieces, or the bino collimation?



#49 Richard Low

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 06:43 AM

He can't sell 'em fast enough as it is. He only makes deals on stuff that isn't moving fast enough... Just like every good business man (or woman) should do :-)

 

Yeah right, there is a ring of truth to that... APM sent me the shipping tracking number for Doctor 12.5mm even before I sent Markus a confirmation email or made payment...hehe.... 

 

For those who are still hesitating on the Doctor 12.5mm, take note that Markus is now sell it at Xmas sale price of Euro615 (or about USD645, depending on the current exchange rate) inclusive of insured worldwide shipping! Refer to this link:

 

http://www.astromart...ified_id=779125



#50 GamesForOne

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 05:20 PM

 

Ok, Agena Astro has the 32mm Baader Classic Plossl's on sale. I picked up two on your recommendation. :coolnod:

---
Michael Mc


I think they are the best of the "non TV" ploessl's.

The coatings are top notch. Much better then the othe Chinese ploessl's I have.

 

Just got these Baader Plossls and I must say I can't see any obvious vignetting in daylight when viewing through the APO binos. The field stop looks well-defined to me. My bino is the initial configuration sold with the full clear aperture.

 

I'm going to try them at night as soon as I have some clear sky. They appear sharp to all but the extreme edge in my daylight observations and they give me a first impression of more than a 50 deg AFOV. Very nice for the price.

 

Edit: Took them out for night viewing a while in my driveway, which is about a mag 4.5-5 sky overhead with a few surrounding yard lights. I definitely observed some vignetting at night -- the field stop looked a bit fuzzy and some edge darkening was detectable in the outer 10% or so. However, they are sharp across virtually the entire field and very sharp on axis. I was able to see peppered faint stars in the Double Cluster, M35, M38, and M41. Star colors seemed nicely saturated. The Orion sword region (all in one field!) was very nice and I could definitely still split three of the four stars of the Trapezium at ~17x. The Pleiades are also nicely framed in full. I could not use these without glasses as my astigmatism is just too severe. If you can use a 32mm eyepiece without glasses, then the fov is definitely more immersive the closer you can get your eyes. I had no significant problems with blackout.

 

I think I will sell my poor man's 24 Pan substitutes, the TeleVue 24mm Widefields, in favor of these 32mm Plossls. I find I prefer my Pentax 20mm XWs over the Widefields anyway. The 32mm Plossls seem to be a better option to me for going after extended nebulae, dark and bright, and nicely framing some of the largest clusters.

 

---

Michael Mc


Edited by GamesForOne, 27 January 2016 - 08:08 PM.



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