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New ASI 1600 -- the 4/3rds revolution for EAA.... starting...

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#1 A. Viegas

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 07:02 AM

Wow... what a jump!   

just think two years ago... we were all stuck at 640x480
last year we suddenly moved up to 1280x900 ish   and now we have 2mp cameras at 1920x1080....    

BUT now 4656 x 3520  with 1.2e read noise!!    16mp!   21.9mm diagonal!    for less than $1000 !!!!   !!!  !!!  Whoooo  hooo!!!!     :dancey:

 

Al

 

 

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  • ASI1600MM_MC.jpg

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#2 StarMike8SE

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 07:09 AM

I think we will continue to see great advances in technology for EAA.  It is a good time to be alive..lol


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#3 Force

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 08:58 AM

    Sounds like competition may be heating up. Prices are going down on some lines. 

    I looked at the ZWO/ASI website and this camera is not mentioned. Maybe I missed something.

 

Mark


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#4 A. Viegas

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 09:06 AM

Hi Mark

This camera will be officially announced @ NEAF in 3 weeks.   It will be available for pre-order and will most likely start shipping in May.  If you join the ASI Yahoo group you can read the details...  https://groups.yahoo.../ASICamera/info

 

 

Al


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#5 nytecam

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 10:16 AM

Al - I think the link rather than the 'poster' would be best in case folk get the wrong idea of your interest in this product and start a trend ;o)
Nytecam

Edited by nytecam, 31 March 2016 - 10:16 AM.


#6 Whichwayisnorth

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 10:48 AM

Nice sensor size on that thing!  


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#7 RafaelP

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 11:05 AM

I suppose it would be good for an imaging newtonian due to sensor and pixel size?  I wonder what the QE and response curve will look like?


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#8 A. Viegas

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 11:11 AM

Al - I think the link rather than the 'poster' would be best in case folk get the wrong idea of your interest in this product and start a trend ;o)
Nytecam

 

Hi Maurice

I know what you are implying.  I am in no way associated or connected with ZWO/ASI.  I bought one of their cameras earlier this year - a ASI 174MM-cool  and I have been very happy with it.  I follow their user groups and it was on their Yahoo group that I saw the post about this new product and where Sam, the owner said he would be debuting this new 4/3rds camera at NEAF, which I am going to attend.   So I am just alerting our fellow EAA'ers of this new product as we all yearn for more resolution all the time!  

 

Al


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#9 StarCurious

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 02:34 PM

With sensor diagonal at 21.9mm, if aspect ratio is maintained at 4:3, the sensor size would be 17.5mm x 13.0mm.  I entered these dimensions into SkySafari Pro, and got 2.69 x 2.0 degree field of view for my 102 SLT with 0.565 focal reduction (F/3.66).  This diagonally frames M31 completely, as well as the Veil.  It seems that this only works with 2" focuser and filters.

 

Would a faster computer be needed to process images live such as Gaming laptop? What is minimum aperture needed to handle this resolution?



#10 A. Viegas

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 02:50 PM

Star Curious -- This is an excellent question.  

 

The old KAF-8300 CCD is also 22mn diagonal and according to SBIG you would have to image at >F7 in order to not introduce vignetting using 1.25" filters.  So this suggests that you could possibly get away with a typical SCT configuration with F6-7 maybe depending on how much distance there is between the filter and the sensor...  although I guess that at F10 you would be fine.   Certainly this means we are looking at moving closer to AP imaging times for our slow SCTs, but using faster reflectors or refractors then you may be able to get away using 1.25" filters.....

Al


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#11 Lightpath

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 03:12 PM

Well, I was getting ready to order an ICX694 camera but I think my money just went back into my wallet...



#12 Relativist

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 03:20 PM

While looking at imaging guidelines might be an OK start, we have a different goal so yes it might be the case that a fast newtonian is the best way to go for larger sensors for EAA.

 

With the used price of the A7s getting lower and lower it's getting to the point that we might need to update our displays to UHD in order to take advantage of these new capabilities. I'm very glad they have a cooled option here, next question I have is if Kyle is going to include this camera in Astrolive USB?


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#13 KGoodwin

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 04:50 PM

While looking at imaging guidelines might be an OK start, we have a different goal so yes it might be the case that a fast newtonian is the best way to go for larger sensors for EAA.

 

With the used price of the A7s getting lower and lower it's getting to the point that we might need to update our displays to UHD in order to take advantage of these new capabilities. I'm very glad they have a cooled option here, next question I have is if Kyle is going to include this camera in Astrolive USB?

 

I have tested this camera.  I was made aware of it a few months ago and it resulted in my redesigning AstroLive USB to handle even larger megapixel images.  It fully supports and has been tested extensively with the ASI 1600.  It can maintain full real-time processing speed even with these enormous images.


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#14 A. Viegas

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 08:56 PM

That's great news Kyle! Do you have any test images you can post by chance?
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#15 dwkdnvr

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 10:27 PM

Interesting. I am an m43 camera system guy, and I would have to think this would be using an existing sensor - probably the same Sony sensor in my Oly E-M5II. I suspect this will be much less sensitive than the 224 for example, but intriguing nonetheless. Would probably be a killer hyper star camera.

 

plus, I've been wondering whether there was an adapter to hook up m43 lenses to a t-mount Zwo camera - now it exists.



#16 Relativist

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 11:12 PM

Good question, did they reveal the sensor?


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#17 A. Viegas

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 06:39 AM

Good question, did they reveal the sensor?

Nothing official on the sensor.  I have been doing some 'googling' and I suspect it may be the IMX159 from sony.  Problem is I can't find any spec sheet for this sensor apart from it meeting the requisite pixel size  3.7um, 16MP and 23fps  specifications already out in the ASI teaser...

 

if anyone can get any more info on the 159 that would be great.   I think this sensor was last year's generation in the Oly cameras, there is a new updated sensor now, the IMX164 i think for Oly 4/3 cameras...      but this is all just me guessing :idea:

 

Al



#18 A. Viegas

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 06:47 AM

ASI 1600  cameras  now up on their website:   http://astronomy-ima...y/new-products/

 

 


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#19 TheRock

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 07:05 AM

Can someone tell me what technical specs make this or any other camera EAA worthy?

#20 Relativist

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 09:58 AM

Can someone tell me what technical specs make this or any other camera EAA worthy?

 

Take a look at this chart linked here

 

1600-Gain-RN-DR-FW-vs-gain.jpg

 

Besides large pixels and high QE values, the ability for a camera to be used for EAA is helped when at high gain the noise is low. Note also that the dynamic range is impacted significantly when using higher gain settings, but this is not generally something we worry about (I consider it nice when it's there) since primarily I'm trying to pull out a view as quickly as possible.

 

Also in addition to specs actually testing in real scopes under light polluted skies with a variety of filters is important as well.

 

P.S. if I had this camera I'd start testing at max gain and then work my way down.


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#21 mclewis1

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:02 AM

In general ... 

 

High sensitivity - required to achieve faint DSO details in a reasonable time

Manageable noise - noise that doesn't over power the faint DSO details (either a lower noise sensor or via external capabilities such as onboard noise reduction, onboard stacking, cooling, outboard noise reduction, outboard stacking, etc.)

Gain control - either onboard or via PC, but you want this control.

 

These days you need to look at the sensor, the camera and the display software as a whole unit to determine if it all together meets your requirements for EAA. Notice I said "your requirements" ... everyone's needs can be quite different. I prefer to observe at exposures well under 60s and without external PC help (video camera with extensive onboard capabilities) ... others are happier with powerful PC help at very short exposures (or much longer exposures to create really nice captured images), etc. etc.

 

Then there are discussions about the complexity of the camera setup (does it need other external devices, can it be controlled via a PC connection, how much power does it require, etc.) and how complex the software is (one piece or multiple apps, easy to use at the scope, easy to learn, easy to broadcast with, etc.).

 

There are very few common metrics that allow you to evaluate the first two items on the list. Some metrics appear to be common but each manufacturer often uses their own take on how to do the measurements which tends to skew the numbers in their favour. In short you need to gain quite a bit of experience in order to fully evaluate the bits and pieces. It's IMHO much easier to read up on personal experiences with the complete packages to see how they might fit your particular needs.


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#22 Dragon Man

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 11:06 AM

Being such a large sensor won't vignetting be a major problem?

It also says in the specs that it's protective window is an IR cut filter.
Not much good to people wanting to pass IR which is handy for many galaxies.


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#23 Relativist

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 11:19 AM

Being such a large sensor won't vignetting be a major problem?
It also says in the specs that it's protective window is an IR cut filter.
Not much good to people wanting to pass IR which is handy for many galaxies.


1 depends on the scope. A fast newt with the right sized secondary would probably be ok.

2 depends on where they start the cut. So it's a question worthy of study, though it'd be a bad surprise if the cut were started prior to the Ha line.


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#24 A. Viegas

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 12:02 PM

ZWO has a 30MB file in the support page for the NEW 1600 camera.  Its a 300s Dark taken at -25C 

I attach it here, converted from .tif to .jpg and then cutdown 75% to meet posting specs...

Key point = not much ampglow!

 

Al

 

300s_resized.jpg


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#25 ippiu

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 12:11 PM

I'd like to see the same 300 sec dark but taken with color version (not cooled)....




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