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TEST: ASI1600MM-Cool

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#26 Jon Rista

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:13 PM

I am really torn between this and a used mono SBIG ST-8300M!!

 

Whichever one you choose, I don't think you would have any regrets. This is a brand new camera, so you might have to go through some rounds of driver updates before it's rock solid, but a used STF might not be perfectly reliable either (oh, BTW...I think you should consider the STF-8300 rather than the ST-8300. The latter does not have a user-serviceable desiccant. I think it also has higher dark current, which might be a little problematic for NB.)


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#27 Thirteen

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:15 PM

If it's as advertised, I question the benefit of choosing the 8300 at double the cost.

#28 FiremanDan

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:21 PM

If it's as advertised, I question the benefit of choosing the 8300 at double the cost.

 

This is a used 8300 for $1199.



#29 tolgagumus

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:26 PM

I looked at this camera with Sam at NEAIC. The uncooled version is not good for long exposures. We compared 30 second uncooled darks to 300 second cooled ones and 300" had less noise. The darks look very similar to the 8300 chip. The camera we looked at had some amp glow but again it was very similar to the Kodak. Quantum efficiency is also very similar to the 8300 at about 60%. I don't know how much it will matter but this is a 12 bit camera. Introductory price of $1180 for the cooled mono version certainly makes it attractive for people who want to upgrade from a dslr. He only had one at the show. If he had another one I was going to wrestle it out of his hand. Lol

#30 Jon Rista

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:29 PM

 

If it's as advertised, I question the benefit of choosing the 8300 at double the cost.

 

This is a used 8300 for $1199.

 

 

If it is a used ST, rather than STF, I would very seriously consider passing on it. The desiccant issue could be a big one...you may end up having to send it in right away to have that dealt with with a used camera.


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#31 Starsareus

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:56 PM

I thought the 1600(color/uncooled) would be the answer to my needs. I have an 8" Celestron Schmidt Camera and given the chip is accessible(to install a field flattener lens), I thought I'd fashion a mounting spider "in" the tube and shoot away. Of course, I have not found anyone who has done this with it's f/1.5 speed. I do not know if the noise will be an issue nor what would work exposure wise?  Any experienced Camera owners out there with ideas?



#32 FiremanDan

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 05:06 PM

I don't know what that is. But that would make me mad.
The plus side is OPT has a 90 day warranty on used gear.

#33 Phil Hosey

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 06:04 PM

 

I am really torn between this and a used mono SBIG ST-8300M!!

 

Whichever one you choose, I don't think you would have any regrets. This is a brand new camera, so you might have to go through some rounds of driver updates before it's rock solid, but a used STF might not be perfectly reliable either (oh, BTW...I think you should consider the STF-8300 rather than the ST-8300. The latter does not have a user-serviceable desiccant. I think it also has higher dark current, which might be a little problematic for NB.)

 

 

The STF also has significantly faster download times than the ST.


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#34 rgsalinger

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 06:19 PM

OK. I understand how stacking reduces noise and therefore increases the signal to noise ratio. I can also see that since a full well on the 1600 is only 25K you've only got a little more than 14 bits of information to digitize in any case. What I don't see is how stacking can increase the resolution to 16 bits equivalent. Is there a tutorial somewhere about this? None of my books on hand seem to discuss it. I see great results with 12 bit DSLR's so it may be moot except as a theoretical point but I'm baffled about how stacking can give you more resolution.

Rgrds-Ross



#35 jlandy

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 06:50 PM

welp... i just pulled the trigger on the 1600, now its just a waiting game


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#36 tolgagumus

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 07:18 PM

I thought the 1600(color/uncooled) would be the answer to my needs. I have an 8" Celestron Schmidt Camera and given the chip is accessible(to install a field flattener lens), I thought I'd fashion a mounting spider "in" the tube and shoot away. Of course, I have not found anyone who has done this with it's f/1.5 speed. I do not know if the noise will be an issue nor what would work exposure wise?  Any experienced Camera owners out there with ideas?

If you are going to use it for deep sky, don't get the uncooled version. The uncooled model maybe good for wide planetary shots like for the Sun and the moon. 



#37 andysea

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 07:41 PM

OK. I understand how stacking reduces noise and therefore increases the signal to noise ratio. I can also see that since a full well on the 1600 is only 25K you've only got a little more than 14 bits of information to digitize in any case. What I don't see is how stacking can increase the resolution to 16 bits equivalent. Is there a tutorial somewhere about this? None of my books on hand seem to discuss it. I see great results with 12 bit DSLR's so it may be moot except as a theoretical point but I'm baffled about how stacking can give you more resolution.

Rgrds-Ross

Stacking will not increase your resolution. It will however increase the dynamic range.



#38 Starsareus

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 07:45 PM

Thanks for reply tolgagumus! But, I am afraid I would end up with another issue. Per Sam, the "uncooled" version is only model with removable nose, exposing the chip itself. I need access to the chip to install a field flattener lens "on" face of chip.  I was shooting(no pun intended) to do short video runs to keep the uncooled version from creating heat waves in the tube.  I "could" install a diagonal in place of the 2" did. film holder to divert cone of light out to the side of tube and make a light weight focuser. While this would seem to allow using the cooled camera, I would not be able to attach the field flattener lens! Go figure.



#39 Midnight Dan

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 07:50 PM

I see great results with 12 bit DSLR's so it may be moot except as a theoretical point but I'm baffled about how stacking can give you more resolution.

Rgrds-Ross

 

A 12 bit imager has a range of about zero to 4000 to represent brightness.  Let's say a pixel is receiving photons that would make it want to record 2000.5.  Can't do it.  It will record 2000, or 20001.  But, if you take many images, some will record 2000 and some will record 2001.

 

Now if you convert those values to 16 bit in software (like DSS does) the value will still represent half of the full brightness.  But the 16 bit scale is about 0 to 65K, so half of that is 32500.  Those images you took will now have that pixel represented as either 32500 or 32516.  When you average those together, you'll end up with 32508, halfway between the two.

 

So, even though you couldn't record that halfway pixel value, stacking and averaging will restore it.

 

-Dan


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#40 A. Viegas

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 08:10 PM

Thanks for reply tolgagumus! But, I am afraid I would end up with another issue. Per Sam, the "uncooled" version is only model with removable nose, exposing the chip itself. I need access to the chip to install a field flattener lens "on" face of chip.  I was shooting(no pun intended) to do short video runs to keep the uncooled version from creating heat waves in the tube.  I "could" install a diagonal in place of the 2" did. film holder to divert cone of light out to the side of tube and make a light weight focuser. While this would seem to allow using the cooled camera, I would not be able to attach the field flattener lens! Go figure.

 

You can screw the ASI 1600MM directly into the threads on a standard filter wheel or a standard 2" barrel adapter.  I am not sure the size of the threads, but I screw the camera directly into the filterwheel which I think is the same thread size as my Celestron 0.63x reducer threads.   If you look at this picture, the Black Ring that goes around the camera can be unscrewed exposing the entire opening to the CMOS chip.

Al

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  • IMG_0733a.jpg


#41 A. Viegas

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 08:14 PM

 

If it's as advertised, I question the benefit of choosing the 8300 at double the cost.

 

This is a used 8300 for $1199.

 

Dan

 

Take a look at this comparison of the ASI1600MM sensor with the KAF8300  for your reference, notice especially the benefit of binning 2x2...

Al

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  • 1as.jpg

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#42 matejmihelcic

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 02:08 AM

Last night I collimate my astrograph in observatory. Previous fIields suffer due poor collimation! Now FOV looks perfect and here is only a sample frame famous globular star cluster, M13. This is only 1x30 sec with L filter in bin 2 mode. Only flat frame calibration used on this image. During day I will process finale LRGB image. 

 

Conditions: Moon (13 days), high humidity, no ground wind, SQM below, fair seeing

 

SQMMpsasGraph.jpg

 

NOTE: jpg image was compressed due system limitation!

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  • M13_L_30sec_ASI1600.jpg

Edited by matejmihelcic, 20 April 2016 - 07:43 AM.


#43 Thirteen

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 05:23 AM

Showing promise!

#44 FiremanDan

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 05:44 AM

The more I look at the pictures taken with these cooled CMOS cams, like what Jason AKA Thirteen is doing... it's very tempting. Other than people talking about various sensor properties, I am not seeing, looking at the pictures anyway that a CCD is 2X or more better than these cooled CMOS, as their prices would want you to think.

I haven't seen any narrowband from them yet though.



#45 Thirteen

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 06:12 AM

I'm waiting on someone to decide that they need to see narrowband data and send me an Ha filter. Seriously, I'm headed that way but I blew my short term astro budget tring to get this system going.

But, IMO for the budget conscious APer, these are impossible to overlook.
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#46 FiremanDan

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 06:35 AM

I found one guy who has a h-alpha of the HH nebula but it looks pretty noisy. Hard to say why it's noisy though.



#47 entilza

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 07:43 AM

Matej, Could you please tell me the download time per image, Thank You.

#48 Thirteen

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 07:58 AM

23 frames per second must mean it's, at least, well, 1/23 of a second.


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#49 entilza

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 08:02 AM

Hey Jason, So if I am using SGP and my 3 minute exposure completes for example, how long will it take to transfer the FIT image to the computer.

#50 matejmihelcic

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 08:07 AM

My old KAF8300 need 12 seconds, ASI1600 need only few seconds on USB2.0 (later I will measure time). 




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