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ASI1600MMC Beta test

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#326 jlandy

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:19 PM

Well I hope this thread helped some of you make a decision. I am interested in more people getting into astrophotography who can otherwise may not be able to due to cost. That's why I chose to use it with an AVX instead of bringing my Paramount. I think this camera coupled with a WO Star 71, AVX or Sirius class mount will make a very nice beginners setup for a very reasonable price.
I don't know about what the lucky imaging is all about. I don't know what Emil does, how he does what he does. He does not publish his methods. I still think the traditional processing will be superior. This is my opinion.

 

this test was perfect for me - this will be my first mono camera, I'll be using it with my AT72ED on the Atlas for first light. Many, many more questions on my part to come for sure


 

#327 FirstC8

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:23 PM

Well I hope this thread helped some of you make a decision. I am interested in more people getting into astrophotography who can otherwise may not be able to due to cost. That's why I chose to use it with an AVX instead of bringing my Paramount. I think this camera coupled with a WO Star 71, AVX or Sirius class mount will make a very nice beginners setup for a very reasonable price.
I don't know about what the lucky imaging is all about. I don't know what Emil does, how he does what he does. He does not publish his methods. I still think the traditional processing will be superior. This is my opinion.

I think Emil does more than a reasonable job disclosing his methods, we just have not asked him to upload his raw data yet, may need to drink a bottle of fine wine first.😆

I agree with you his lucky imaging method isn't for beginners, often not even for advanced imagers due to hardware, software and skills required.

Edited by FirstC8, 10 May 2016 - 02:58 PM.

 

#328 Jon Rista

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:31 PM

 

 

Jon, if it is indeed sensor issue, would this be an issue more associated with CMOS, or have we noticed similar patterns on CCD chips?

One thing I noticed from my own project and use a 1/3 CMOS chip for long exposures, my 30-min subs and darks could not remove certain curved bands along the edge of the amp glow along the left side of the frame, yet hour-long subs do not have such issue, even though closely examining those 30min or 60min lights and darks did not reveal any unusual phenomenon.

How can this be explained?

There were speculations, moonlight not blocked by dew shield, power supply/voltage issue, lack of flats...each mitigation effort did not solve the banding issue.

I decided to give up just take hour long subs.


It is possible with such long subs you are swamping the different noises overwhelmingly so that they are unrecognizable.

I think it is very careful we don't say this is a camera issue without a lot further investigation. First of all, it is very mild. Second of all it is one set of data that Tolga was trying to get out fast. It needs to be investigated and explained, but nothing that can be concluded yet.

As I added later in the above post, those different types of glows seemed reasonably removed through proper subtractions, as long as there is no need to overly stretch the images.

Occasionally though, aggressive stretching maybe necessary.

 

 

Josh is correct, we have to be careful not to attribute the flat calibration issue to the sensor yet. There are so many things that could cause that. More testing is definitely necessary, on a diversity of equipment, to determine if there is any such issue with flats and the sensor. My guess is "highly doubtful"...flat issues abound, and a dozen things can cause them, the least of which is the sensor. 

 

In the end, we may find that there was a slight discrepancy in dark offset between the 60s lights, and the flats. The ASI1600 does not seem to have any kind of dark current suppression tech, so the longer the exposure, the larger the dark current offset. If the flats were long enough, and were only calibrated with the bias, then there may be a slight offset difference which could be corrected by using flat darks. However I am currently quite skeptical that is the issue, as I don't think with 60s subs and the sensitivity of this camera that flats would need to be long enough to have such an offset. 


 

#329 Jon Rista

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:37 PM

Trumpets Please....

 

 

Beta is over.  From ASI Yahoo Groups.......... :waytogo:

 

"I got my tracking number for my ASI1600MC-Cooled. It is scheduled to arrive tomorrow.

I plan to use ASI1600MC-Cooled on my C11 EdgeHD with Hyperstar and on an imaging f/4

10 inch carbon fiber Newtonian."

 

Unfortunately it is not me :bawling: .  Someone out there will get an alpha unit within a day or two.  Tolga's unit is now obsolete.  What do you do about this thread?

 

No word yet on my end. I was definitely not the first to order, so I am not expecting anything until the end of the week. The later the better, I guess. Gives me more time to figure out what I want to do about the filter wheel. Not sure if I'm going to go with the Xagyl or Atik EFW2. I really like the Atik so far...not sure I want to give up on it. I could go with a very short 1mm Precise Parts adapter, which would make the totak EFW2 to camera thickness 23mm. That would be compared to a custom-adapted Xagyl which would be 20mm. I am not sure the 3mm difference is going to matter much. 

 

Tolga, any chance you know what the actual filter to sensor plane distance is in your setup? 


 

#330 buckeyestargazer

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:38 PM

Josh is correct, we have to be careful not to attribute the flat calibration issue to the sensor yet.  

 

This is exactly my point too.  That's why I mentioned that the lights look really, really good.  The other things will sort themselves out eventually and I highly doubt this is any kind of sensor problem.  Like any other sensor we have to learn how to deal with the particular characteristics of the sensor.  I drastically changed my processing flow when I moved from a KAF-8300 to ICX694 because they are different chips.  Same here.


 

#331 josh smith

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:49 PM

 

Josh is correct, we have to be careful not to attribute the flat calibration issue to the sensor yet.  

 

This is exactly my point too.  That's why I mentioned that the lights look really, really good.  The other things will sort themselves out eventually and I highly doubt this is any kind of sensor problem.  Like any other sensor we have to learn how to deal with the particular characteristics of the sensor.  I drastically changed my processing flow when I moved from a KAF-8300 to ICX694 because they are different chips.  Same here.

 

 

Right...  It is worth asking though if there is a calibration issue.  We know that Tolga is using an ascom driver from his post above that changed the characteristics of the amp glow.  Is it possible data is being manipulated in a way before it gets to your hands that makes calibration tough?  I'm sure Sam will help everyone understand that and what can be done to get around it if it is an issue.

 

Somewhat related is that when we had issues with the QSI camera's firmware and the banding, you could not get flats to calibrate correctly.  For a long time we didn't know if it was a user error or camera error.  It turned out to be a camera error that needed help from the users to give QSI the info needed to make it happen.  It'll be good getting the camera in more hands to help determine if it is a one off thing or more of a way the chip is being read that needs some help.  

 

I think for most people, especially new imagers or people just getting into the market, it is good enough already and a great value.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't ask these questions.  For example, in the first image Tolga shared, everyone was all excited about IFN.  There is very little to no IFN in this field.  I think regardless of your experience, it's probably good to know if what you're capturing is really data in the sky or some calibration techniques or errors that need to be worked out.


 

#332 bigeastro

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:06 PM

 

Trumpets Please....

 

 

Beta is over.  From ASI Yahoo Groups.......... :waytogo:

 

"I got my tracking number for my ASI1600MC-Cooled. It is scheduled to arrive tomorrow.

I plan to use ASI1600MC-Cooled on my C11 EdgeHD with Hyperstar and on an imaging f/4

10 inch carbon fiber Newtonian."

 

Unfortunately it is not me :bawling: .  Someone out there will get an alpha unit within a day or two.  Tolga's unit is now obsolete.  What do you do about this thread?

 

No word yet on my end. I was definitely not the first to order, so I am not expecting anything until the end of the week. The later the better, I guess. Gives me more time to figure out what I want to do about the filter wheel. Not sure if I'm going to go with the Xagyl or Atik EFW2. I really like the Atik so far...not sure I want to give up on it. I could go with a very short 1mm Precise Parts adapter, which would make the totak EFW2 to camera thickness 23mm. That would be compared to a custom-adapted Xagyl which would be 20mm. I am not sure the 3mm difference is going to matter much. 

 

Tolga, any chance you know what the actual filter to sensor plane distance is in your setup? 

 

The person who claimed to have received his shipping notice claims to have ordered it last Saturday directly from ZWO.  I don't know about that........  Oh well patience.  I am trying to beat the rainy season, which starts promptly in about three weeks.


 

#333 spokeshave

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:17 PM

 

 

Josh is correct, we have to be careful not to attribute the flat calibration issue to the sensor yet.  

 

This is exactly my point too.  That's why I mentioned that the lights look really, really good.  The other things will sort themselves out eventually and I highly doubt this is any kind of sensor problem.  Like any other sensor we have to learn how to deal with the particular characteristics of the sensor.  I drastically changed my processing flow when I moved from a KAF-8300 to ICX694 because they are different chips.  Same here.

 

 

Right...  It is worth asking though if there is a calibration issue.  We know that Tolga is using an ascom driver from his post above that changed the characteristics of the amp glow.  Is it possible data is being manipulated in a way before it gets to your hands that makes calibration tough?  I'm sure Sam will help everyone understand that and what can be done to get around it if it is an issue.

 

Somewhat related is that when we had issues with the QSI camera's firmware and the banding, you could not get flats to calibrate correctly.  For a long time we didn't know if it was a user error or camera error.  It turned out to be a camera error that needed help from the users to give QSI the info needed to make it happen.  It'll be good getting the camera in more hands to help determine if it is a one off thing or more of a way the chip is being read that needs some help.  

 

I think for most people, especially new imagers or people just getting into the market, it is good enough already and a great value.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't ask these questions.  For example, in the first image Tolga shared, everyone was all excited about IFN.  There is very little to no IFN in this field.  I think regardless of your experience, it's probably good to know if what you're capturing is really data in the sky or some calibration techniques or errors that need to be worked out.

 

I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say that "everyone was all excited about IFN". It seems the me that people were simply encouraged to see hints of IFN with such little integration time. There clearly *is* IFN in the image, particularly along the right side near the bright star and it corresponds very nicely with IFN that is more prominent in other images. In fact, the arc that you have been attributing to a calibration problem on the left side of the image corresponds to a broad arc of IFN in that same region, though it is too faint to be sure.

 

Tim


 

#334 SteveGR

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 02:08 PM

Well I hope this thread helped some of you make a decision. I am interested in more people getting into astrophotography who can otherwise may not be able to due to cost. That's why I chose to use it with an AVX instead of bringing my Paramount. I think this camera coupled with a WO Star 71, AVX or Sirius class mount will make a very nice beginners setup for a very reasonable price.
I don't know about what the lucky imaging is all about. I don't know what Emil does, how he does what he does. He does not publish his methods. I still think the traditional processing will be superior. This is my opinion.

I appreciated you using the AVX, since it is what I have as well. That alone is a good data point for me. :)  I have a much slower scope than what you used though, it will be interesting to see how these do in the F7 neighborhood and I imagine we will be getting a lot of data soon if they are indeed shipping.  Thanks for all the effort Tolga.  And everyone else. :)


Edited by SteveGR, 10 May 2016 - 02:15 PM.

 

#335 JMW

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 07:41 PM

I am the one who ordered it on Saturday. It is scheduled for Wednesday delivery. I just checked the tracking. It is in Anchorage with a status of delay. I don't know if the delay is customs processing or what. I ordered the color cooled version so the demand may be less than the mono version.


 

#336 bigeastro

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:08 PM

Jeff, Congrats on Saturday Order and quick delivery.  Now that I know it is a color camera, I feel better.  I ordered the mono.

 

To the rest of the group.

 

What is the quarter circle swirl artifact in the first image that Matej posted?  It is somewhat of a quarter of a circle that looks local and not distant like the other galaxies.  Here is a description of the image from Metej and the link. 

 

 

"First light: Image with M105 and few surrounding galaxies were captured with small 60-mm f5,5 (work on f4,3) APO. Image consists L:8x300, RGB:5x300/channel. There are no dark, bias and flats used. Camera was cooled  on -30°C without any problems. Image FOV 234x177 arcmin (3.01 arcsec/px)."

 

http://www.cloudynig...asi1600mm-cool/

 

 

I don't recall anyone mentioning it.  Is that IFN?   Just wondering what that artifact is.


 

#337 buckeyestargazer

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:22 PM

 

What is the quarter circle swirl artifact in the first image that Matej posted?  It is somewhat of a quarter of a circle that looks local and not distant like the other galaxies.  Here is a description of the image from Metej and the link. 

 

 

"First light: Image with M105 and few surrounding galaxies were captured with small 60-mm f5,5 (work on f4,3) APO. Image consists L:8x300, RGB:5x300/channel. There are no dark, bias and flats used. Camera was cooled  on -30°C without any problems. Image FOV 234x177 arcmin (3.01 arcsec/px)."

 

http://www.cloudynig...asi1600mm-cool/

 

 

I don't recall anyone mentioning it.  Is that IFN?   Just wondering what that artifact is.

It looks like either a reflection of some kind (nearby bright star, moon, etc just off the FOV) or possibly a condensation issue somewhere.  


 

#338 FiremanDan

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 06:33 AM

I noticed that too. Since it was noted to lack any calibration frames, I assumed it was some kind of issue in the imagining train that would likely be calibrated out.


 

#339 glend

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 06:40 AM

I am told by a Sydney ZWO retailer that the first Australian bound  ASI1600s will arrive in a shipment at the end of this week, most of the shipment is already sold on pre-order. Mine (mono cooled)is one of those.


Edited by glend, 11 May 2016 - 06:41 AM.

 

#340 jlandy

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 07:15 AM

I was hesitant to go direct from ZWO due to not being able to read the Chinese when redirected to PayPal - ended up buying from Highpoint Scientific (I like their customer service). They anticipate delivery by the end of the month


 

#341 bigeastro

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 08:47 AM

I was hesitant to go direct from ZWO due to not being able to read the Chinese when redirected to PayPal - ended up buying from Highpoint Scientific (I like their customer service). They anticipate delivery by the end of the month

I purchased directly with paypal and did not see a bunch of Chinese writing.  It was an easy transaction.  I think OPT also carries them also.


 

#342 bigeastro

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 08:49 AM

 

 

What is the quarter circle swirl artifact in the first image that Matej posted?  It is somewhat of a quarter of a circle that looks local and not distant like the other galaxies.  Here is a description of the image from Metej and the link. 

 

 

"First light: Image with M105 and few surrounding galaxies were captured with small 60-mm f5,5 (work on f4,3) APO. Image consists L:8x300, RGB:5x300/channel. There are no dark, bias and flats used. Camera was cooled  on -30°C without any problems. Image FOV 234x177 arcmin (3.01 arcsec/px)."

 

http://www.cloudynig...asi1600mm-cool/

 

 

I don't recall anyone mentioning it.  Is that IFN?   Just wondering what that artifact is.

It looks like either a reflection of some kind (nearby bright star, moon, etc just off the FOV) or possibly a condensation issue somewhere.  

 

Thanks,

I think Matej mentioned that he was fighting condensation on the imaging run.


 

#343 FiremanDan

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 09:25 AM

I ordered mine through OPT, who has good customer service, but I probably should have gone through Highpoint since they are in NJ and I am in VA, vs OPT who is on the west coast. My Highpoint orders usually get here in 2 days with normal shipping, my OPT orders have taken over a week, they also managed to send me the wrong filter once too. 

 

Oh I remember why I went with OPT, I had a deposit on a used SBIG8300 and just moved that to the ASI1600. 

Hopefully I'll get my camera and the needed adapters (also on back order) before summer. 


 

#344 Jon Rista

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:09 AM

Woo! TS just got some more stock of their 10mm thick EOS to T2 adapter. Little pricier than I'd hoped with shipping, but it's a pretty unique part. If anyone else was hoping to adapt their ASI1600 to a Canon lens, you might want to order that part now, as I don't know how long they will  be in stock.


 

#345 jlandy

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:12 AM

Woo! TS just got some more stock of their 10mm thick EOS to T2 adapter. Little pricier than I'd hoped with shipping, but it's a pretty unique part. If anyone else was hoping to adapt their ASI1600 to a Canon lens, you might want to order that part now, as I don't know how long they will  be in stock.

 

i got the adapter and the ring clamp in a couple weeks ago, seems like it should work well


 

#346 JMW

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:29 AM

This is my 4th ZWO camera. I have always ordered direct with fast free shipping. Mine is on the local UPS truck for delivery today. I have an SBIG STF-8300m Pro+ camera/filterwheel/OAG that I have been using for 4 years that I use for long exposure and narrow band.

 

I bought the color cooled ASI1600 to sit on the front of my C11 EdgeHD with Hyperstar. The camera is perfect for this since it is about 20mm smaller in diameter than the secondary mirror of the C11. The only obstruction will be the USB and DC power cables. I will run them from the camera to my aluminum dew shield at 90 degree angels to give me nice symmetric diffraction spikes.


 

#347 telfish

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:40 AM

This is my 4th ZWO camera. I have always ordered direct with fast free shipping. Mine is on the local UPS truck for delivery today. I have an SBIG STF-8300m Pro+ camera/filterwheel/OAG that I have been using for 4 years that I use for long exposure and narrow band.

 

I bought the color cooled ASI1600 to sit on the front of my C11 EdgeHD with Hyperstar. The camera is perfect for this since it is about 20mm smaller in diameter than the secondary mirror of the C11. The only obstruction will be the USB and DC power cables. I will run them from the camera to my aluminum dew shield at 90 degree angels to give me nice symmetric diffraction spikes.

 

 

I am really interested to see how the color version does, can you post some results when you have them


 

#348 JMW

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:51 AM

I probably won't have a chance to have the camera under dark skies until the Golden State Star party at the end of June. I live in a red/white light pollution zone. That's why I do narrow band from my back yard.  I will do some casual live stacking from my backyard just to see how well AstroLive USB works with the camera. Hyper star at 560mm focal length gives me a much wider field of view that is much better under dark skies. I will also try the camera at f/4 on my 10 inch carbon fiber imaging Newtonian. That will be a bit slower but be a more useful image scale for smaller targets. It may perform better in my light polluted back yard. I have been doing narrow band at 2800 or 1960 focal length on my C11 EdgeHD.


Edited by JMW, 11 May 2016 - 11:56 AM.

 

#349 zaubermantel

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 01:29 PM

Recently ordered a 1600 mono cooled for an initial foray into narrowband. After much research, I couldn't pass up the price and I don't mind a bit of fiddling to get things working.

 

My current setup is an Orion ED80 -> DSLR on an Atlas mount with a small guidescope & ZWO 120mm guide camera. I'm planning to get a corrector/reducer of some sort so I will need to be at 55 mm from the reducer to the chip. 

 

I'm thinking of going with a custom adapter from precise parts to connect the camera to an Atik EFW2 filter wheel (with 36 mm filters). As far as I can tell that's 6.5 mm for the camera, 11 mm for the adapter, and 22 mm for the filter wheel. That's 39.5 mm. 1.3 mm Atik adapter to get the scope side of the EFW2 to T2. Then I want to use a thin OAG such as the TSOAG9, which is 9 mm. This totals 49.8 mm. At this point I would use a 5 mm spacer to get to ~55 mm. In other words:

 

Scope - reducer - OAG 9 mm - Adapter 1.3 mm - EFW2 22 mm - adapter 11 mm - camera 6.5 mm. And a 5 mm spacer somewhere in there. Does this sound right?

 

Thanks!


 

#350 syscore

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 01:57 PM

Yep, something like this...

 

TOAG-2.jpg

 

Different camera and TOAG, same filter wheel, same concept, same 55 mm. :)

 

I have a couple tiny spacers in there that you cannot see.


Edited by syscore, 11 May 2016 - 01:57 PM.

 


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