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Comments on Orion's new ED-X2 refractors?

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#1 dc_robert

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 07:06 PM

I saw an ad for these in the latest issue of Astronomy magazine, but don't recall reading anything about them here.  According to Orion, these new ED-X2 scopes have one element of FPL-53 ED glass and one element of FPL-51 ED glass in their objective lens assembly. They go on to claim that "With two fluoro-crown ED glass elements and fully multi-coated optics, the...ED-X2 refractor provides superior correction of chromatic and spherical aberrations. By suppressing these aberrations so effectively, this triplet 'apo' telescope produces impeccable visual views and razor-sharp astrophotos without any fringing or loss of clarity."

 

Orion sells two versions:

 

1) 85mm @ F/6.6 - 9.25 lbs

2) 104mm @ F/6.25 - 14.6 lbs

 

They come with "a thread-on objective lens cover, two heavy-duty machined tube rings, a sturdy machined dovetail bar for easy mount attachment, and a dovetail finder scope base (installation required). An included hard carry case with a custom die-cut foam insert ensures safe transport and convenient storage."

 

Is Orion doing something new here with the X2 design?  Would there be much an improvement over single element triplet apos, especially for imaging?

 

 

 



#2 Joe1950

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 08:08 PM

$2,700

$3,500

 

It says it's a triplet, with two ED glass elements.

These are faster than their current ED 80mm that is an f/7.5, same as the scope I have the C80ED, a doublet. I'm guessing the shorter FL needs more attention to CA and SA. Probably a wider corrected field for imaging.

 

Sounds good, looks great, but way out of my league. (I'd rather have the Tak 102 if given the choice.)

Maybe one of the optics boys can give a comment on the two ED glass elements.

They are on the web page under 'New Products.'


Edited by Joe1950, 28 April 2016 - 08:15 PM.

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#3 vaskies

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 09:50 PM

Maybe I'm talking out of my eyepiece, but they seem a bit overpriced... or maybe a lot. :lol:


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#4 Dustin Smith

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 01:21 AM

Waaayyyy overpriced. Orion doesn't make anything, they import only. For my $3k I'd wait, save up another grand, and watch the used market for a premium scope (Tak for example).

 

Dustin


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#5 dc_robert

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 09:32 AM

I agree, they seem super-pricey.  But thinking about it more, these scopes strike me as perhaps Orion's attempt to compete with Takahashi's FSQ imaging refractors.  If they compare very well in AP, then maybe the price isn't so bad?



#6 precaud

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 09:51 AM

I think it's a statement about the market; the low- and mid- price ranges are getting crowded with already-low margins decreasing further, so they're trying to move up the scale.


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#7 rmollise

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 10:58 AM

Thoughts?

 

"Too expensive"

"Better choices"

 

;)


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#8 vaskies

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 11:14 AM

I agree, they seem super-pricey.  But thinking about it more, these scopes strike me as perhaps Orion's attempt to compete with Takahashi's FSQ imaging refractors.  If they compare very well in AP, then maybe the price isn't so bad?

While I love my Orion products, I'd never associate Orion as a premium brand. For that sort of money, I think a Tak would be more inline at that point. Nothing against Orion at all, I just feel that sort of money for a scope of that size is crazy. The next question I'd ask is if they've actually sold many? They do look nice with the black/red combo, but I can't help but see a resemblance to other scopes such as the new Astro-Techs for quite a lot less.


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#9 dc_robert

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 11:45 AM

I think it's a statement about the market; the low- and mid- price ranges are getting crowded with already-low margins decreasing further, so they're trying to move up the scale.

 

I agree with that.  The question is, how successful are they?

 

Orion needs to put these scopes in the hands of some experienced astrophotographers, preferably folks who already own "premium" AP scopes and image with them regularly, and run a comparison.  Sky-Watcher did this with their Esprit line I think to very good effect.  Until we can see real world results and comparisons, these ED-X2 scopes will be an expensive gamble.


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#10 junomike

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 11:58 AM

Seems Price and "better options" was the consensus in this previous thread also.

 

Mike



#11 precaud

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 12:02 PM

Here's a thought: blind us with science. Educate us. Provide data that shows the superiority of their dual-ED triplet approach. Then let the subjective reviewers have at it.

 

Back in audio's golden age we prepped the market for new products by giving reputable reviewers an advance taste of what we were doing. I think the astro marketing companies totally miss the boat in this respect. Educate your audience. The loyalty you win by doing so is quite durable.


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#12 Joe1950

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 12:41 PM

I agree, John. I worked in the advertising field for over 45 years and those who were really successful had a very effective technique of promoting a product. They would make a statement that would appeal to the prospective customer. Immediately, they would back that statement with fact!

 

Today, in advertising, many details contain the first statement but leave off the second entirely. After a while one learns that the appealing aspects of a product are inflated or non existent at all.

 

People who buy technical products want information about it. Solid fact-based information.

 

You can just get so far saying we have the best product before the consumer is going to ask, "What exactly makes your product better?"

 

 

In addition to people who are savvy about optics and scope performance, such as those of us who frequent this site, there are probably more who are brand or merchant loyal and buy from one source, but don't know much else. To them, if the Brand O is advertising a new APO as a new step in improved technology, they trust that the price is in line with the item, and buy it.

 

Face it. not everyone has the vast knowledge we have. Well, my knowledge is more half-vast.

 

I don't know what all that means actually, but sales numbers can be misleading. I would put much more credibility in the quality and value of a product based on opinions offered on a site such as CN or SL. Especially where you see definite trends.

 

Cheerio!

Frosted Flake!

Rice Krispie!             :rimshot:


Edited by Joe1950, 29 April 2016 - 12:43 PM.

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#13 JohnAkai

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 03:03 PM

Yes, way too expensive! On the same page, the 115 ED Triplet is a much better deal! For $3,500 I'd rather get a Tak, an SV, or save for an used AP. What is Orion thinking?! LOL ;^)



#14 vaskies

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 05:08 PM

Maybe they're not so bad after all, you can split up the 104mm into 3 convenient payments of $1,166.66! :step:



#15 Joe1950

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 05:24 PM

Well... It should say 2 convenient payments of $1,166.66 and 1 convenient payment of $1,166.67.     :lol:

 

 

Wow! With that kind of coin you could buy a couple months of health care! Maybe not the Platinum, Gold or Silver, but certainly a Bronze or Rusted Steel Plan!  

 

A lot to think about.   :shrug:


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#16 vaskies

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 05:40 PM

Act now and we'll cut 1 full payment off!

 

Well... It should say 2 convenient payments of $1,166.66 and 1 convenient payment of $1,166.67.     :lol:

 

 

Wow! With that kind of coin you could buy a couple months of health care! Maybe not the Platinum, Gold or Silver, but certainly a Bronze or Rusted Steel Plan!  

 

A lot to think about.   :shrug:

I think by default, everyone gets the Rusted Steel Plan. I know that's the one we're on. :yay:


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#17 WesC

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 05:43 PM

I'm kinda surprised... I mean they're probably ok scopes, but for that money no freakin way.

 

Orion is not a premium company.

 

I got my Takahashi TSA-120 for only slightly more than their 104.



#18 precaud

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 06:03 PM

Twice the ED glass, twice the price... I mean, X2... think about it, what's wrong with that?   :question:  :shrug:

 

The sad thing is, some poor sucker person somewhere will probably get taken in by it.



#19 vaskies

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 06:34 PM

Twice the ED glass, twice the price... I mean, X2... think about it, what's wrong with that?   :question:  :shrug:

 

The sad thing is, some poor sucker person somewhere will probably get taken in by it.

It's good they only went with 1 FPL-53 and 1 FPL-51 versus 2 FPL-53 lenses otherwise there would have been a "Submit Kidney" button instead of "Add to Cart". :lol:


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#20 doctordub

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 01:40 PM

:sleuth:

 

Twice the ED glass, twice the price... I mean, X2... think about it, what's wrong with that?   :question:  :shrug:

 

The sad thing is, some poor sucker person somewhere will probably get taken in by it.

It's good they only went with 1 FPL-53 and 1 FPL-51 versus 2 FPL-53 lenses otherwise there would have been a "Submit Kidney" button instead of "Add to Cart". :lol:

 

Two FPL-53 lenses, it's a  TOA!  :step:

CS

Jonathan



#21 Joe1950

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 01:45 PM

They always say 'Two EDs are better than One!'


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#22 Pauls72

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 06:31 PM

They where discussed awhile back. Still haven't see any first light reports or reviews.

 

http://www.cloudynig...as-2-new-fracs/



#23 Phil Cowell

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 06:27 PM

Oh I clicked on the send first born button. I figured with the money I save on food, phone, heat, light, gas, car insurance I was on a winner. The scope would feel like it was free.

 

 

 

Twice the ED glass, twice the price... I mean, X2... think about it, what's wrong with that?   :question:  :shrug:

 

The sad thing is, some poor sucker person somewhere will probably get taken in by it.

It's good they only went with 1 FPL-53 and 1 FPL-51 versus 2 FPL-53 lenses otherwise there would have been a "Submit Kidney" button instead of "Add to Cart". :lol:

 


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#24 Joe1950

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 07:29 PM

It must be an FPL-104.

 

The 'Add to Cart' button was replaced with an 'Add to Trunk of Bentley' button.   :rimshot:   


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#25 Mitrovarr

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 11:39 PM

They where discussed awhile back. Still haven't see any first light reports or reviews.

 

http://www.cloudynig...as-2-new-fracs/

 

Nobody will buy one to try it.

 

I just don't know what they're thinking. It's not like many people were complaining about the color correction in the existing premium scopes. I doubt they'll want to pay more AND get a scope from a non-premium manufacturer just to improve that correction further.




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