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Night Vision changes everything

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#51 Eddgie

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 10:59 AM

Ok, then I would amend to say that you sound like you are happy where you are for now.

 

I can respect that too.


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#52 Sarkikos

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 11:03 AM

I am never completely happy.  That would be boring.  There is always the itch for more or different.  That's why I'm in the EAA Forum now.

 

:grin:

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 12 July 2016 - 11:04 AM.

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#53 BillP

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 03:09 PM

The upshot of all this is to say that I'm rethinking how I approach astronomy...

 

Wow...inspiring post. 



#54 shams42

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 05:43 PM

Last night I viewed the Cave, the Bubble, and the Wizard nebulas. All for the first time, and under very poor conditions - a first quarter moon and a high cirrus layer. This is with a 12nm H alpha filter.

 

I really want a 5nm or 3nm H alpha filter now. Moonlight will pose very little threat then.

 

When I used to image, my Astrodon 5nm Ha filter provided much better contrast than the 8nm Baader Ha filter. Either would have crushed the 12nm filter I'm using now.


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#55 Sarkikos

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 06:20 PM

 

The upshot of all this is to say that I'm rethinking how I approach astronomy...

 

Wow...inspiring post. 

 

 

Thinking of entering the Green World, Bill? :thinking:

 

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 12 July 2016 - 06:21 PM.


#56 BillP

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 07:07 PM

 

 

Thinking of entering the Green World, Bill? :thinking:

 

 

 

I would...but I do not like ATMing things together, especially at such expense as I would have to sell off gear to afford.  But properly productized, binocular, narrow band filters included, something with around a 15 degree TFOV, good sharp star points, white phosphor instead of green.  Now that would be something.  And if it opens up views never seen before like the OP describes, can just imagine how it could get kids fascinated with the sky and what is hiding up there in plain site that they never realized...might really energize the hobby.  Can just imagine laying out on a blanket looking up with something like that all night long.  Anyway, would be really cool.  Trying to push some vendors to think along these lines.


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#57 PEterW

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 03:13 AM

ATM... About as hard as screwing a filter in. The commercial Astro systems were not thought of very highly. There is expansive expertise about exactly which bits you need to make up a system yourself. Simples. And if it is cloudy you can go wildlife watching instead... Extra bonus feature!

Peter
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#58 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:20 AM

But there is a definite learning curve involved in determining exactly what pieces you need to put an NV system together.  And there are differing opinions about which pieces to use.  And you need to do some fishing around in the used market to get a good deal on decent equipment ... unless you have multiple thousands burning a hole in your pocket or you don't mind using that credit card.

 

I thought I was spending some money when I bought the Canon 10x42 IS and the SW120ED!   NV has those little expenditures beat by multiples, if you buy new.  The alternative is doing a lot of homework and getting lucky with a used deal.

 

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 13 July 2016 - 07:25 AM.


#59 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:35 AM

Everything screws together and it is more like changing configurations than building things. 

 

You can use it out of the box with a snap on magnifier at 1x and 3x, or with a threaded on adapter, with SLR lenses for between 1x and maybe 11x.

 

Or by threading on an eyepiece barrel, in any existing telescope.

 

More like changing the lenses on an SLR Camera than an ATM project.

 

While there is a slight learning curve in what your various configuration options are, you can start using NV  immediately right out of the box with nothing else added, or with a simple thread in filter adapter and IR pass filter under heavy light pollution, or with the same thread on filter adpater and an H-a filter for big nebula.

 

I can see the North American Nebula from my light polluted front yard and is all it took was screwing in the filter with the adapter.

 

I recently sold my NVD Micro because I am upgrading to a true night vision binocullar and the first night the buyer tried it, he easily got it to work with his telescope by screwing off the lens and screwing on the 1.25" nose.     

 

Nothing difficult or tricky at all.  Everything screws on and off.


Edited by Eddgie, 13 July 2016 - 07:49 AM.


#60 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:41 AM

Yesterday, I read an observing report where this guy viewed NGC 6633 from 7000 feet under rural skies and good transparency with a pair of 20x by 88x binoculars.   I checked my logs and realized I had never seen this and his report made it sound like something I should see.

 

My skies were horrible with haze and moonlight and I could not even see enough guide stars to locate this object. I had to hold my tablet to the sky as a finder to know where to look.

 

It took some time to actually find it, but even at 3x I was able to resolve 6 stars and at 8x with a 200mm lens, many more.

 

Now this does not sound like a big deal, but in my location at 800 feet above sea level and 3.5 miles from down town Austin Tx,= Using a 65mm objective lens and looking though a haze so heavy that I could barely see stars in the area with the naked eye, I think it was a pretty good observation.

 

Can't wait to see it with the Comet Catcher at 18x!!!!

 

I could also see the big, faint nearby IC cluster but mostly Mag 10 stars so not all that well shown.

 

And even in the haze, I had great views of Lagoon, Swan, Eagle, and Trifid at 8x, and even saw the Cats Paw Nebula (which I did not think would be possible under the conditions present and while it was not anything close to the same view from a site 23 minutes away (24 minutes when you include the time to load all of my gear into the car) the fact that I could see it and identify it standing in the street in front of my house seems pretty amazing to me......


Edited by Eddgie, 13 July 2016 - 07:45 AM.

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#61 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 08:16 AM

Everything screws together and it is more like changing configurations than building things. 

 

You can use it out of the box with a snap on magnifier at 1x and 3x, or with a threaded on adapter, with SLR lenses for between 1x and maybe 11x.

 

Or by threading on an eyepiece barrel, in any existing telescope.

 

More like changing the lenses on an SLR Camera than an ATM project.

 

While there is a slight learning curve in what your various configuration options are, you can start using NV  immediately right out of the box with nothing else added, or with a simple thread in filter adapter and IR pass filter under heavy light pollution, or with the same thread on filter adpater and an H-a filter for big nebula.

 

I can see the North American Nebula from my light polluted front yard and is all it took was screwing in the filter with the adapter.

 

I recently sold my NVD Micro because I am upgrading to a true night vision binocullar and the first night the buyer tried it, he easily got it to work with his telescope by screwing off the lens and screwing on the 1.25" nose.     

 

Nothing difficult or tricky at all.  Everything screws on and off.

 

OK, give me a list of exactly the parts I need and exactly where I can get them, and for exactly how much, say for hand-held monocular viewing of bright nebulae and dark nebulae, at 1x up to possibly 10x.  The bright nebulae should be a good variety, ones that for conventional visual astronomy would need OIII, UHC or H-Beta filters.  The same requirements for goggle viewing would be nice, too.

 

Mike



#62 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 08:18 AM

And once again, the cost comes up.

 

I sold off so much stuff that quickly became obsolete that I easily paid for my PVS-7 and my NVD Micro.  

 

  • 5" Apo
  • 6" Apo
  • CGE Mount
  • Sirius EQG Mount
  • Mark V binoviewer (though I still have the Binotron.. Russ would be proud of that one).
  • Dozens of eyepieces
  • Lunt 60 (I would rather see the sky in H-a than see the sun in H-a but I really did not use it all that much so this was really more about just not getting value from it, but then again, what makes that different than these other things?
  • And stuff.   Lots of stuff.  Little things like Vibration Suppression pads and finders rings and Baader T2 stuff! OMG, I had hundreds and hundreds of dollars of T2 stuff!

Everyone that says that NV is expensive should look around.    In the end, it only seems expensive because the package it comes in is so small, but in terms of the value offered, ounce for ounce the value proposition may not look good but photons collected to photons collected, NV  is cheap.....



#63 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 08:21 AM

I live under bright red zone skies, but most nights I can easily see all the M objects from Scutum through Sagittarius and Scorpius with my Canon 10x42 IS binos.  The only ones that can be pretty difficult are M54, M70 and M60, the little globs at the bottom of the Teapot.

 

Mike



#64 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 08:23 AM

And once again, the cost comes up.

 

I sold off so much stuff that quickly became obsolete that I easily paid for my PVS-7 and my NVD Micro.  

 

  • 5" Apo
  • 6" Apo
  • CGE Mount
  • Sirius EQG Mount
  • Mark V binoviewer (though I still have the Binotron.. Russ would be proud of that one).
  • Dozens of eyepieces
  • Lunt 60 (I would rather see the sky in H-a than see the sun in H-a but I really did not use it all that much so this was really more about just not getting value from it, but then again, what makes that different than these other things?
  • And stuff.   Lots of stuff.  Little things like Vibration Suppression pads and finders rings and Baader T2 stuff! OMG, I had hundreds and hundreds of dollars of T2 stuff!

Everyone that says that NV is expensive should look around.    In the end, it only seems expensive because the package it comes in is so small, but in terms of the value offered, ounce for ounce the value proposition may not look good but photons collected to photons collected, NV  is cheap.....

 

The cost was not the major concern of my post ... though, yes, of course it is important.  I sold a slew of eyepieces when I bought my Leica ASPH Zoom.  I was actually ahead after the sales.  So I know about selling gear to get other gear.

 

Just give a list of exactly what parts I'd need and exactly where I'd get them.  Are they all available right now, or would I have to fish around for a deal?

 

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 13 July 2016 - 08:26 AM.


#65 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 08:28 AM

 

Everything screws together and it is more like changing configurations than building things. 

 

You can use it out of the box with a snap on magnifier at 1x and 3x, or with a threaded on adapter, with SLR lenses for between 1x and maybe 11x.

 

Or by threading on an eyepiece barrel, in any existing telescope.

 

More like changing the lenses on an SLR Camera than an ATM project.

 

While there is a slight learning curve in what your various configuration options are, you can start using NV  immediately right out of the box with nothing else added, or with a simple thread in filter adapter and IR pass filter under heavy light pollution, or with the same thread on filter adpater and an H-a filter for big nebula.

 

I can see the North American Nebula from my light polluted front yard and is all it took was screwing in the filter with the adapter.

 

I recently sold my NVD Micro because I am upgrading to a true night vision binocullar and the first night the buyer tried it, he easily got it to work with his telescope by screwing off the lens and screwing on the 1.25" nose.     

 

Nothing difficult or tricky at all.  Everything screws on and off.

 

OK, give me a list of exactly the parts I need and exactly where I can get them, and for exactly how much, say for hand-held monocular viewing of bright nebulae and dark nebulae, at 1x up to possibly 10x.  The bright nebulae should be a good variety, ones that for conventional visual astronomy would need OIII, UHC or H-Beta filters.  The same requirements for goggle viewing would be nice, too.

 

Mike

 

Ok, if you don't care about whether to use one eye or two, here is what you need and where to get it (without regard to getting the best price). 

 

Call Night Vision Depot.

  • NVDepot Micro Monocular with ULT Tube and specify an ENVIS lens.  White Phosphor is an option so get it if you want it.

Web to RAFCamera.com

  • Order a 1.25" filter adapter for a PVS-14 

From Ebay

  • 1.25 barrel to C mount adapter
  • 3x afocal Magnifier for PVS-14 or PVS-7
  • SLR lenses to your liking but ED or Apo lenses are best and faster is better, though most lenses willl be fine for nebula because you are going to filter.
  • SLR to C mount (depending on the kind of SLR lenses you are going to use)

Note.. You don't need the 3x really, but it is a super light and super sharp lens and perhaps my most used lens besides the ENVIS and 1x. 

 

From your preferred astro vendor:

 

  • 1.25" 12nm Baader H-a fitler ( 7nm H-a filter if your light pollution is bad).
  • 1.25" 610nm  (680nm if your light pollution is bad).

That is all you need. 

To use it at 1x, screw on your filter ring and filter, turn it on focus, and view.

 

To use at 3x, snap 3x over ENVIS.  Turn on, focus, and view. If using filter on ENVIS, just slip 3x over and hold with finger wrapped around bases.

 

To use it with SLR lens, unscrew ENVIS, screw on SLR to C mount adapter, mount lens.  Turn on, focus, view.

 

To use it in the telescope, you unscrew the lens, put on the 1.25" nose, screw in your filter, put it in the telescope, turn it on, focus and view.


Edited by Eddgie, 13 July 2016 - 09:01 AM.

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#66 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 08:37 AM

No SLR's here.  I never owned an SLR.  I was never much into photography.  I never got into AP, either.  Still don't like it.  So if I used SLR lenses, I'd have to buy them used I suppose.  I have absolutely zero knowledge of such things.

 

Mike



#67 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:00 AM

And to be clear, I am not building you a custom system here.  If you want a flimless L# White Phosphor tube, I think NV Depot can get that for you but it may not be on the shelf. Otherwise, you would have to go to a specized dealer.

 

 

And there are other considerations here.  I you even think that you might one day want a binocular, you might get them to order a Mod 3 podn with C mount rather than a Micro housing so that you could later add the second pod, tube and bridge for a binocular.

 

You also need to decide if you want gain control. Not necessary, but if you want it, you might be better off with the Mod 3 pod with C mount.

 

Knowing what I know now, for someone buying new, I would recommend that they get the AB Nightvision Mod 3  Pod with C mount and gain control.   This will of course cost several hundred dollars more than the Micro, but now you have the ability to later grow into a true binocular. 

 

Now everyone is going to say "Hey this is to compicated?"  

What astronomy purchase is not complicated????

I you don't want to take the time to research it though, the list in the previous post will get it done with just a checkbook.


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#68 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:05 AM

For PVS-7, you need a PVS-7 D, C mount housing (NAIT or Ebay) and everything else on the list as to your tastes.

 

And you don't need SLR lenses.  Any small refractor or reflector will work fine, though faster is better, and CA will be horrid without filters.  People that love acromats would puke if they saw how much energy is being wasted due to CA.

 

I use mostly the 1x and 3x, and a used Comet Catchter and 12" dob, but I do have a 200mm SLR lens for an interim power (about 8x). 


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#69 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:05 AM

NVD Micro Night Vision Monocular, NVDepot http://nvdepot.com/p...?v=7516fd43adaa  $2495 to $3995.

 

Envis lens.  I cannot find this at NVDepot.  Do I need to call them?  How much will it be?

 

Filter adapter from RAF Camera.  What type of adapter?  What size and threading?

 

H-a filter.  What size and threading?

 

3x magnifer.  What exactly is this?  

 

1.25" nose piece.  T2 threading?  If so, I can get a Baader or one a Chinese from eBay.

 

Nikon to C-mount adapter.  Is this it?  https://www.back-bon...-mount-adapter/ $42.

 

I couldn't find a C-mount adapter at NAIT.

 

SLR lenses?  I know virtually nothing about cameras.  Is this one I can use?  http://shop.usa.cano...usm-refurbished  $89.99.

 

I don't intend to pick on Eddgie.  But understand that NV for astronomy does present somewhat of a learning curve for conventional amateur astronomers, especially those with no knowledge of SLRs, night vision, cameras and such.   There do indeed appear to be a slew of gadgets and gizmos that need to be understood - exactly what they are and where to get them -  before proceeding confidently into the Green World.

 

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 13 July 2016 - 09:12 AM.


#70 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:20 AM

Just to be clear, I gave you the no shopping price.  Dealers can often save you several hundred dollars on ULT Micro.

 

The Micro comes with a CCTV lens if you talk to them, you can get them to sub the ENVIS. They may want to charge extra, but it should not be more than $98 because that is what they sell for new.

 

RAF Camera. Use the search box and search for  exactly what I said: 1.25" filter adapter for a PVS-14

3X Magnifier.  Go to Ebay and search on "3x magnifier" with Night Vision or PVS-7 in the search.  It is a 3x afocal telescope that fits in front of the ENVIS for 3x, 12 degree field.'

 

1.25" to C mount.....  Exactly what I said.. Go to Ebay and search for 1.25" to C mount.

 

Nikon to C you showed is correct, but far less expensive from China on Ebay.

The lens you showed is kind of slow.  I would suggest faster and it can be old manual focus lens.  These are often very inexpensive on Ebay unless you want a fast zoom,

 

If you are serious and just want to get started quickly, I would say pass on the SLR stuff for now.   The 1x, 3x and a small refractor will keep you happy for now.   SLR lenses will get you in the 8x to 11x range, but a small refractor will get you in the 12x to 15x range.   If you have a smalll refractor already, maybe best to not get diverted with what SLR lens would be best.

 

In other words, it is not complicated, to get started, but in time, to fully exploit the device, it is no more complicated than many other things in astronomy.

 

One can get started with a Micro, a 1.25" nose, and a couple of filters.

A this level it is no more complicated than using a regular eyepeice.  You screw on the filter, and you put it in the focuser.

 

But as with so many things, if you want to do more, it takes more. 

 

You are making it appear far more complex than it really is and I understand fully that this may be because it is so foreign to you, but the reality is that it is pretty much plug and play with a countless variety of options, but at the other end of the spectrum, it is as simple as walking out a door, turning a knob to "On" looking up, and focusing.   


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#71 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:39 AM

My C80ED should be nice with a ULT Micro.

 

Mike



#72 BillP

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 10:43 AM

Now everyone is going to say "Hey this is to compicated?"  

What astronomy purchase is not complicated????

 

That is not an excuse for the continuation of over complication.  My goodness, if I said that to my customer base at where I work I would be relieved of duty at a minimum.  And no, basic astromical visual observing is not very complicated...scope, eyepiece, mount, star chart, practice.  And all these are typically available bundled so nothing to piece together and plenty of folks spend years with just the two eyepieces supplied.

 

I think all you EAA guys are forgetting about all the frustration you had to go through when you were first embarking on your journey...it is WAY MORE complicated than visual observing complications.  Way more, specifically because none of the learning curve is really astronomy centric but more involved with the II technologies and such and mostly buying used because new the prices truly are ASTRONOMICAL!. 

 

At any rate, as Mike has expressed so will I (again), it is not productized for astronomy, so one has to hobble it together (atm), whether that means going adapter crazy or having to find appropriate parts to interface.  It is undocumented and not productized.  Until such time that it is, then it will remain basically an atm-like pursuit. 

 

So here's the challenge I will give this forum...

 

Configure a checklist for three capable systems for astronomy (beginner, intermediate, advanced), with all necessary vendor specific items and vendor specific components and adapters, with pricing and urls of where to get as new products.  Can this forum community agree of what a good beginner-intermediate-advanced collection of products?  If so, then you might get some more interest from the rest of us.  I dip into this forum semi-often and each time it really is a nightmare of complications that I read.  Even the OP of this thread pointed out appreciation for all the help, but he still has shortcomings...and it is not like he went to the Astronomics site to find everything.  So please all of you, make it simple and give us who are wondering three good examples of a fully capable system with all components necessary.  That would be a proper "start". :grin:  Otherwise, this NV concept gets un-inspiring real quick!


Edited by BillP, 13 July 2016 - 10:51 AM.

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#73 Eddgie

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 10:44 AM

Yes, that would be a reasonable scope for NV but for nebula, faster is always better and a cheap f/6 achormat will deliver better performance on nebula (and a cheap f/5 refractor will be even better gain, because for nebula, the CA does not matter.. what matters is speed). 

 

600mm focal length would give you about 23x, and the field would be about  1.65 degree true field.

 

A bit slow on the focal ratio, but with H-a fitler, seeing smaller, brighter nebula with a lot of detail even from light polluted skies would be pretty easy.

 

Again, faster is better though if nebula re the top target.  As the focal ratio slows, the image gets more grainy and scintillation starts to be an issue.

 

Now the tradeoff to having scintillation is the ability to see things that might not be seen otherwise, so like so many things in astronomy, there is always a compromise in on one side of the other.

 

Severel members are using similar scopes with great results.

 

Here is a video of Sculpter Galaxy by Jay using a 90mm Tak...   He has some others taken with the same scope.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=6lSO5L7-q-A

 

I recommend you spend some time on Youtube. You can see a lot of real time videos taken by different people with different kinds of lenses and telescopes.  That will give you a very clear idea of the kind of result you can get and that may help you decide in the future if it is of interest to you.

 

And everyone will tell you that unlike normal imaging, with NV the eyepeice view is better than the image shows it to be....


Edited by Eddgie, 13 July 2016 - 10:46 AM.


#74 BillP

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 10:46 AM

 But understand that NV for astronomy does present somewhat of a learning curve for conventional amateur astronomers, especially those with no knowledge of SLRs, night vision, cameras and such.   There do indeed appear to be a slew of gadgets and gizmos that need to be understood - exactly what they are and where to get them -  before proceeding confidently into the Green World.

 

Mike

 

 

AMEN :bow:


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#75 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 10:55 AM

Yes, that would be a reasonable scope for NV but for nebula, faster is always better and a cheap f/6 achormat will deliver better performance on nebula (and a cheap f/5 refractor will be even better gain, because for nebula, the CA does not matter.. what matters is speed). 

 

600mm focal length would give you about 23x, and the field would be about  1.65 degree true field.

 

A bit slow on the focal ratio, but with H-a fitler, seeing smaller, brighter nebula with a lot of detail even from light polluted skies would be pretty easy.

 

Again, faster is better though if nebula re the top target.  As the focal ratio slows, the image gets more grainy and scintillation starts to be an issue.

 

So maybe time to bring out the ST80 again?  f/5 for the ST80 vs f/7.5 for the C80ED.  

 

Maybe I could even rig something up to the Orion MF 70mm finder.  It's running fast at f/3.9.  

 

For Newt, I could try my Meade LightBridge 114mm f/3.95.

 

The MF 70 and the Meade 114 have only 1.25" focusers, but that should be OK for NV.

 

And as I heard, all those super-fast made for AP Newts that are not so good for visual, suddenly become viable for NV.

 

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 13 July 2016 - 11:16 AM.



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