Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

ZWO ASI071MC-Cool Beta Test

  • Please log in to reply
238 replies to this topic

#226 Jon Rista

Jon Rista

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 15721
  • Joined: 10 Jan 2014
  • Loc: Colorado

Posted 08 February 2017 - 08:57 PM

Mono will always have the advantage. What I am saying is, I think OSC cameras are perfectly viable in yellow or darker zones, while in orange or brighter zones, they are actually more trouble than they are worth. 

 

Mono has not only the advantage of being more efficient (period, even at a dark site), but also being compatible with NB filters. That makes them more flexible as well as more efficient. 

 

I just have a hard time recommending OSC to anyone in a light polluted zone. I've had more than enough experience with OSC in a red zone (which depending on the time of year and atmospheric conditions, can vary from an orange zone to a white zone), and if you want to create pretty pictures, LP just destroys OSC data and it requires EXCESSIVE integration to overcome that. With mono, you still have to overcome LP, but the more efficient sensor makes it a lot easier...and if there is anything beginners need, it's easier. ;) 



#227 gujarbhai

gujarbhai

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 35
  • Joined: 25 Aug 2016
  • Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon

Posted 08 February 2017 - 09:07 PM

Thank you Jon.



#228 Tsarbomba

Tsarbomba

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 93
  • Joined: 10 Nov 2009
  • Loc: Courtice, Ontario, Canada

Posted 09 February 2017 - 03:03 PM

I just pulled the trigger on the ASI1600MM-Cool with the filter wheel and filter set  :D  This will be my first foray into mono/NB imaging, and I can't wait! I think learning with a modded DSLR has taught me a lot, especially on the processing end of things. But I live in red/yellow zone, so I can't wait to see the difference.


  • StarMike8SE likes this

#229 Jon Rista

Jon Rista

    Hubble

  • *****
  • Posts: 15721
  • Joined: 10 Jan 2014
  • Loc: Colorado

Posted 09 February 2017 - 03:15 PM

I just pulled the trigger on the ASI1600MM-Cool with the filter wheel and filter set  :D  This will be my first foray into mono/NB imaging, and I can't wait! I think learning with a modded DSLR has taught me a lot, especially on the processing end of things. 

Congrats!

 

But I live in red/yellow zone, so I can't wait to see the difference.

 

Those two zones are separated by orange. :p You could be in a red/white, or red/orange but it's pretty tough to be in a red/yellow. :p If you do indeed live in a yellow zone, the ASI071 would likely have been pretty nice. If you live in a red zone, then I definitely think you made the right choice going with mono.



#230 entilza

entilza

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2570
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2014
  • Loc: Oakville, ON, Canada

Posted 10 February 2017 - 08:09 PM

Could someone try an Ha test with this camera?  I realize it's not a mono camera but with the results Shawnmar has got with his OSC camera and Ha filter, it makes me wonder how this camera would perform with an Ha filter?  I've also seen many full spectrum DSLR's perform quite well with an Ha filter.


  • cyber likes this

#231 Jesus Magdalena

Jesus Magdalena

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 01 Apr 2013
  • Loc: Madrid, España

Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:15 AM

Could someone try an Ha test with this camera?  I realize it's not a mono camera but with the results Shawnmar has got with his OSC camera and Ha filter, it makes me wonder how this camera would perform with an Ha filter?  I've also seen many full spectrum DSLR's perform quite well with an Ha filter.

 

Excuse my English, I use the translator

Here is a sample of M42 with 30X300 "Ha plus RGB

 

 

0d15520efcdc857ebef8fcb08719d72a.1824x0_


  • premk19, gundark, BigBanger and 1 other like this

#232 Glutch

Glutch

    Sputnik

  • *****
  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: 24 Mar 2016
  • Loc: North Richland Hills Texas

Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:22 AM

 

 



 



Dan, one thing to note. You are in a yellow zone. That gives you a BIG advantage in using an OSC camera. Yellow zones are pretty good...LP is more balanced with light from space and airglow, so it isn't overpowering. Your Orion nebula image demonstrates that...it's low noise, very clean with minimal gradients. My dark site is in a green zone near the border of a yellow zone, and sometimes sky brightness goes below 20.8mag/sq" (definite yellow zone)...and the results are still orders of (stellar) magnitude better than my red/white zone back yard (literally.) 

 

For people in a yellow zone, and certainly green or darker, I think OSC cameras work great. They can definitely support a simpler workflow. I think people who live in an orange, red, pink or white zone really need to pause before they pull the trigger on an OSC camera, because LRGB, even if the equipment is a little more to learn up front, is going to be capable of delivering usable results without all the frustrations with nasty gradients and the like that you would have with OSC. Not everyone is lucky enough to have the kind of darker skies that a yellow zone offers, and for so many living in a red zone (most suburbanites), OSC data can be a frustrating mess more often than not. 

Jon, won't the L filter still let in light pollution? So is it better to do RGB and synthetic L when imaging from a red zone? Or use an LPS filter for the luminance channel?

 

I've been going back and forth deciding between an OSC and mono frown.gif  My dark site is bortle 4 and local site is a red zone. The 071 is very tempting!

 

Yes L will let in LP. No, I don't believe synthetic L is going to improve anything. The thing about a synthetic L is that it LITERALLY ADDS ZERO INFORMATION to your final image. You may be able to do certain things with processing on a synthetic lum that are easier than doing them on the separate or combined RGB, however a synthetic L is derived from the RGB. It won't add any more SNR to your image. I have heard from a lot of people that synthetic L works great, however theoretically, mathematically and in my experience with DSLRs in practice, I have never found that they ever actually improve SNR. I often preferred separating out a synthlum with my 5D III just to simplify processing, and some things (like deconvolution) always worked properly on the synthetic lum, but rarely on the RGB. 

 

If you truly want to improve your SNR, then you must use either an L filter, or an LP filter in place of the L filter (not for color, but for LP protected luminance). Only ADDTIONAL frames from a separate filter will actually give you the true SNR benefit of LRGB imaging. Conversely, you can simply skip L alltogether, and put a lot more time into the RGB filters. If you were aiming for say 6 hours of integration total, with 4 L and 2 of combined RGB, there is no reason you couldn't drop the L and just put 2 hours each into RGB. You would benefit from the couple of small gaps at the ends and between the RGB filters that way, which would block out some LP. But, for the most part, all that really does is block out the primary sodium vapor emission lines. It actually doesn't block out any other LP lines. IMO, you would still be far better off using an L filter, and just acquiring a lot of L data. 

 

Here is an example (I may have posted this before, but here it is again). These two images of Andromeda are from my back yard, a red/white zone in a suburban area. The first image is 7.2 hours of 5D III OSC data during October and November from a couple years back:

 

get.jpg

 

The second image here is 3.4 hours with an ASI1600 and LRGB, with 1h56m of L, 20m of B, 30m of G and 40m of R from a couple months ago:

 

get.jpg

 

This is the same heavy LP. Less than half the total integration with the mono, and it looks significantly better. I added 1h24m Ha data to the new image as well, and enhanced the color a bit more:

 

get.jpg

 

The Ha data was a bit sparse, and really needs to be 3-4 hours of integration, so it pulled down the SNR of the final image a bit. However, it still looks considerably better than the OSC image. 

 

Without the L data for my new image, I'd have had to put more time into each of the other filters. Since they are each only acquiring a third or less the light, I would have needed a lot more integration to get the same final SNR. 

 

I've thought about picking up an IDAS LPS-D1 1.25" filter to use in place of my L. I haven't done that yet as it doesn't seem to matter what size IDAS filter you buy, they all cost the same ($190), which I find to be ridiculous, and I'm not really sure how much of an improvement it will really offer in the end. I have larger IDAS filters, and I keep meaning to give them a try before I buy another one. I always felt the color ended up a bit too blue-green with the IDAS LPS-P2, so I stopped using it on my OSC data. However, used as an L filter, it might be perfectly fine, and could provide higher contrast data for a luminance channel. I'd probably need to double my integration time with it, as the IDAS filters in my experience block out about a stops worth of light. So, my 3.4h integration would become a 5.4h integration. 

 

***

 

Just to be clear to everyone. I am recommending mono if you live in a light polluted area. I think the ASI071 will be an awesome camera with a relatively large sensor, IF YOU LIVE UNDER DARK SKIES. OSC is great with dark skies, where LP can't decimate your SNR and spew colorful crap all over your data. I stopped using OSC cameras in my back yard in February 2015, as after seeing what just 2-3 hours could do at a dark site, spending 11, 12, 15, 18 hours in my back yard to get WORSE results just wasn't worth it anymore.

 

If you live in a yellow zone or darker, and want the largest frame in a cooled astro camera that you can currently get, I say look no further than the ASI071.

 

If you live in an orange or brighter zone, particularly red/pink/white, skip the OSC. Even with added mechanical complexity, mono+LRGB is vastly superior. Despite the fact that an L filter lets in more LP. tongue2.gif

 

Jon,

 

I am sorry to ask this question as I am still somewhat confused.  I live in yellow zone.  If I can afford to buy either ASI071 or ASI 1600 mm (mono with accessories) would you still recommend ASI071 for someone in yellow zone.  Will there be any significant advantage for someone living in yellow zone to have mono vs OSC.

 

Thanks

 

Avi

 

I agree with Premk19, If you live in a yellow zone or better then you can't go wrong with the ASI071MC otherwise it may be better to go mono with filters.



#233 telfish

telfish

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1533
  • Joined: 17 Nov 2010
  • Loc: Adirondack Mountains NY

Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:08 PM

I am currently testing this camera in a grey zone and am very pleased with the results. I am going to mix HA in from my 1600 which should be a winning combination.



#234 entilza

entilza

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2570
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2014
  • Loc: Oakville, ON, Canada

Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:00 PM

Very nice!!  Do you have an Ha-only version only as well?  Thank you.

 

 

Could someone try an Ha test with this camera?  I realize it's not a mono camera but with the results Shawnmar has got with his OSC camera and Ha filter, it makes me wonder how this camera would perform with an Ha filter?  I've also seen many full spectrum DSLR's perform quite well with an Ha filter.

 

Excuse my English, I use the translator

Here is a sample of M42 with 30X300 "Ha plus RGB

 

 

0d15520efcdc857ebef8fcb08719d72a.1824x0_

 


  • Glutch likes this

#235 Jesus Magdalena

Jesus Magdalena

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 01 Apr 2013
  • Loc: Madrid, España

Posted 06 March 2017 - 04:11 PM

Thank you
This is the stacking of the Ha shots, extracted the red and stretched channel

Sorry, stretched and processed

 

 

33251337866_e4c65b8d2c_c.jpg

 

Very nice!!  Do you have an Ha-only version only as well?  Thank you.

 

 

Could someone try an Ha test with this camera?  I realize it's not a mono camera but with the results Shawnmar has got with his OSC camera and Ha filter, it makes me wonder how this camera would perform with an Ha filter?  I've also seen many full spectrum DSLR's perform quite well with an Ha filter.

 

Excuse my English, I use the translator

Here is a sample of M42 with 30X300 "Ha plus RGB

 

 

0d15520efcdc857ebef8fcb08719d72a.1824x0_

 

 


Edited by Jesus Magdalena, 06 March 2017 - 04:35 PM.


#236 entilza

entilza

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2570
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2014
  • Loc: Oakville, ON, Canada

Posted 06 March 2017 - 04:25 PM

Wow awesome!  



#237 GaryO

GaryO

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 142
  • Joined: 15 Aug 2006
  • Loc: rochester ny

Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:46 PM

Really nice image!

 

Gary



#238 tommax

tommax

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 247
  • Joined: 15 Feb 2013
  • Loc: WI

Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:16 AM

Astronomy is a very tiny market. Cost will always be higher. It has nothing to do with how much it cost to make the camera, it has to do with number of people buying the cameras. There are significantly a lot more people buying DSLR cameras than astro cameras. If astro cameras cost as much as DSLR cameras, the astro camera business will go out of business due to small market.

 

Cooled cameras will always be better than uncooled cameras for long exposure times of at least 30 seconds. Cooled cameras significantly reduces dark noise.

 

Peter

the free market working as it should - without it there would be no astro cameras at all.



#239 tommax

tommax

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 247
  • Joined: 15 Feb 2013
  • Loc: WI

Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:19 AM

Sorry of this does belong here but all the guys commenting seem to know these very well. I recently acquired a 1600-color-cooled. Nice camera but the file sizes are huge. I am just learning and have a AT-65EDQ scope - I have been using sharpcap and it is difficult to get images due to the file size - it's huge on my laptop screen - I spend alot of time trying to find my target. What do you guys do about this? with that 65mm scope I certainly don't need an image that huge and it makes processing take longer - do you guys bin with these? are there any other tips?

 

again apologies if I should have asked this in a separate thread.




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.







Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics