607 replies to this topic

[mlord]

It's not really the firmware that's the issue, but rather how each of their mounts has a slightly different hardware interface for the AUX bus.  And over time they've been tweaking the hardware revisions of the hand-controllers too.

 

The firmware is fine for the most part.  Nearly all of the issues with multiple accessories and the like are due to the AUX bus electrical interface on some mounts, and on some accessories.

 

We went through similar things with the HomeBrew accessories developed here on Cloudy Nights.  It took a few revisions to come up with a good version of the electrical interface hardware, one that works with all Celestron mounts.  Finally nailed it third time around -- HomeBrew Generation 3, or HBG3 for short.   It actually seems to work better than any of Celestron's own versions!

Edited by mlord, 28 May 2024 - 06:29 AM.

[hobsond]

It's not really the firmware that's the issue, but rather how each of their mounts has a slightly different hardware interface for the AUX bus.  And over time they've been tweaking the hardware revisions of the hand-controllers too.

 

The firmware is fine for the most part.  Nearly all of the issues with multiple accessories and the like are due to the AUX bus electrical interface on some mounts, and on some accessories.

 

We went through similar things with the HomeBrew accessories developed here on Cloudy Nights.  It took a few revisions to come up with a good version of the electrical interface hardware, one that works with all Celestron mounts.  Finally nailed it third time around -- HomeBrew Generation 3, or HBG3 for short.   It actually seems to work better than any of Celestron's own versions!

Can you send a link to your HBG3 unit?  Are these for sell or are they an open source kit?  I would be interested in using one to develop from.  Thanks

[mlord]

https://www.cloudyni...usbrelay/page-1

https://rtr.ca/hbg3/

[hobsond]

https://www.cloudyni...usbrelay/page-1

https://rtr.ca/hbg3/

Thanks 

[Andy-di-Notte]

https://www.cloudyni...usbrelay/page-1

https://rtr.ca/hbg3/

Thanks for the links and sorry for my ignorance, but could you explain in layman's terms what the HBG3 does, compared to using Celestron hardware and firmware?

 

I read something on your HBG3 website about being able to use a Nextstar+ hand controller via WiFi. Would that work with the Starsense hand controller too? (the reason I ask is that you can't use the Starsense User Auto Align feature via wifi in Starsafari, so you are forced to use the hc.)

Edited by Andy-di-Notte, 02 June 2024 - 07:08 AM.

[mlord]

 (the reason I ask is that you can't use the Starsense User Auto Align feature via wifi in Starsafari, so you are forced to use the hc.)

It does have "Starsense Manual Align", which may or may not be exactly what you want.  Use CONNECT initially, to establish a basic control link.  Then click on the Celestron Icon to get the telescope settings, and from there choose your alignment method.  Then, DISCONNECT, and follow that with CONNECT AND ALIGN.

 

I'm not sure if "Starsense User Align" is supported or not -- I don't have a saved "User Align", and perhaps the menu entry for that only shows up if one has a saved "User Align" ??

 

Edited by mlord, 02 June 2024 - 07:17 AM.

[mlord]

could you explain in layman's terms what the HBG3 does, compared to using Celestron hardware and firmware?

That is all covered at https://rtr.ca/hbg3/ under the " What Is It?" and "What Else Can It Do?" headings.  By comparison, the Celestron WiFi dongle can only do WiFi, though theirs does work with Celestron Firmware Manager (CFM).

Edited by mlord, 02 June 2024 - 07:20 AM.

[mlord]

I read something .. about being able to use a Nextstar+ hand controller via WiFi. Would that work with the Starsense hand controller too?

Yes, it would work.  I'm not sure how practical the feature is, though.  It requires a pair of WiFi dongles, with the "remote" one being an HBG3.  The other can be a Celestron dongle, built-in WiFi, or an HBG3.   But the stumbling block is that the Celestron hand-controllers still need 12V power from somewhere, and they actually use more power than the HBG3 does. 
 

[Andy-di-Notte]

It does have "Starsense Manual Align", which may or may not be exactly what you want.  Use CONNECT initially, to establish a basic control link.  Then click on the Celestron Icon to get the telescope settings, and from there choose your alignment method.  Then, DISCONNECT, and follow that with CONNECT AND ALIGN.

 

I'm not sure if "Starsense User Align" is supported or not -- I don't have a saved "User Align", and perhaps the menu entry for that only shows up if one has a saved "User Align" ??

 

The Starsense "User auto align" feature allows you to carry out an automatic alignment without any user input, and is based on a manual alignment you previously carried out and saved.

You can do this with the Starsense hand controller, however in Skysafari you can carry out a manual alignment with Starsense Autoalign but you can't save it, so you would have to do a manual alignment every time.

 

Apparently Celestron has been aware of this problem for years, but haven't provided Simulation Curriculum with the necessary data to allow them to incorporate this feature in Skysafari.

 

So I was wondering if there's a way of using this feature remotely f.e. by connecting the HC via Wifi with the HBG3.

Edited by Andy-di-Notte, 03 June 2024 - 01:19 AM.

[mlord]

So I was wondering if there's a way of using this feature remotely f.e. by connecting the HC via Wifi with the HBG3.

Well, a very long cable for the HC would do it.  Note that when the HC is doing the alignments, you will have to continue to use the HC for everything else as well.  Unless connecting via the serial/USB port on the HC, instead of by an AUX port.

 

The SkyFI/SkyBT adapters, and the HomeBrew All-In-One can do wireless via the serial/USB port on the HC, as can some other DIY Bluetooth modifications.
 

CPWI can also save/re-use User Alignment points with SkySafari StarSense.

Edited by mlord, 04 June 2024 - 05:29 AM.

[mlord]

Celestron has been aware of this problem for years, but haven't provided Simulation Curriculum with the necessary data to allow them to incorporate this feature in Skysafari.

That's a lame excuse on the part of S-C.  I can quite easily reverse-engineer the required commands/data for this, and one would expect any other competent embedded engineer to also be able to.

 

Eg.  Plug in an HBG3, and turn on "verbose=1" for a full AUX bus message trace over the USB/Serial debug port.  Then use the StarSense HC to perform and save a User Alignment, and then use it again to Restore and re-use a User Alignment.  Look over the message trace to discover the commands and data.  Done.  A couple of hours at most.

 

EDIT:  Actually, I've done this already now.  And the necessary "data" is entirely inside the StarSense HC, nothing to do with the SSAA camera.  So it's really even MORE trivial for S-C to do, if they had the motivation.  It's simply a matter of saving the relative coordinates from the "home position" of each of the user-align points used.  And then re-using those next time.  Completely within the app itself.  Very Very easy.

Edited by mlord, 03 June 2024 - 06:36 AM.

[Andy-di-Notte]

Well, a very long cable for the HC would do it.  Note that when the HC is doing the alignments, you will have to continue to use the HC for everything else as well.  Unless connecting via the serial/USB port on the HC, instead of by an AUX port.

 

The SkyFI/SkyBT adapters, and the HomeBrew All-In-One can do wireless via the serial/USB port on the HC, as can some other DIY Bluetooth modifications.
 

CPWI can also save/re-use User Alignment points with SkySafari.

Thanks for this. I'm not sure if this is the right forum to continue this discussion but I'd like to know more about these options, and how to connect everything. Maybe I should start another thread elsewhere?

 

A long cable is not an option in my case, so I'd definitely be interested in a Wifi solution.

I've searched for the SkyFi and SkyBT adapters but it seems they are not available anymore (they were also expensive).

 

I'm a visual observer but what I'm aiming for is to be able to do some EAA in the winter months when it's cold outside. Being able to execute an automatic alignment with Starsense would be great, but I have a restricted view of the sky so I have to use a (previously saved) manual alignment.
 

[Andy-di-Notte]

That's a lame excuse on the part of S-C.  I can quite easily reverse-engineer the required commands/data for this, and one would expect any other competent embedded engineer to also be able to.

 

Eg.  Plug in an HBG3, and turn on "verbose=1" for a full AUX bus message trace over the USB/Serial debug port.  Then use the StarSense HC to perform and save a User Alignment, and then use it again to Restore and re-use a User Alignment.  Look over the message trace to discover the commands and data.  Done.  A couple of hours at most.

 

EDIT:  Actually, I've done this already now.  And the necessary "data" is entirely inside the StarSense HC, nothing to do with the SSAA camera.  So it's really even MORE trivial for S-C to do, if they had the motivation.  It's simply a matter of saving the relative coordinates from the "home position" of each of the user-align points used.  And then re-using those next time.  Completely within the app itself.  Very Very easy.

I had no idea about this. It's a real shame then that S-C hasn't done this considering it's an extremely useful function of the Starsense autoalign that's missing in Skysafari.

[mlord]

I'm a visual observer but what I'm aiming for is to be able to do some EAA in the winter months when it's cold outside. Being able to execute an automatic alignment with Starsense would be great, but I have a restricted view of the sky so I have to use a (previously saved) manual alignment.

Well that's already taken care of today.  Just use CPWI rather than SkySafari when operating indoors.  CPWI can do (saved) "Manual StarSense Align" on steroids. 
 

[Andy-di-Notte]

Ok, thanks that sounds interesting. I still have questions so I'll start another thread...

[NanSi]

Nexstar 127slt, HC NexStar+ and Starsense Auto Align

 

Hi all you telescope nerds!  I'm new and this is my first post.  I never thought buying a computerized telescope (month ago) was going to be such a challenge.  This is my third telescope in my life, my last on was a little Bushnell 450, that I used for years, while limited, I did see lots of cool stuff with it.  I have wanted a new scope for a long time so that I would be able to see more cool stuff with and even use my iPhone to take some photos of some the that cool stuff too!  I did a lot of research and decided on the 127SLT, the documentation made it seem easy to use, and I got the wifi module which promised a simple set up.  I have minimal light pollution out in the country where I live, but lots of big trees around the property perimeter (can't see the horizon) so I wanted it to be a "set up and go" kind of thing. (hahahah)

 

I initially just did a one-star alignment that got me going, but I kept losing the wifi and when I tried to slew to a star (that I could actually see) using the Sky Portal app, it kept saying it couldn't slew there.  WHY???  I would eventually just move the scope with the hand control.  Frustrating and I'm sure it's some kind of user error, maybe someone can enlighten me what the problem is there.  I finally decided after a few nights of frustration with alignment I would invest in the Auto Align.  I attached to the annoying wifi, and started the auto alignment and held my breath, and, it went AMAZING!  Back and forth it went, and said it found 500 stars,.  WOW  It was the first time I felt like I really got somewhere with the telescope, and I spent an hour looking at everything.  So fun!. 

 

Next time I went out, I thought I would set up the Starsense Handset so that I didn't need to mess with the wifi cutting out all the time.  I put all the info in the hand control as required, the scope started slewing all over the place and wound all the cords around the scop, hit the tripod leg and ended up pointing at the ground.  Obviously, failed to find anything, even though there are a million stars up there, not on the ground.  LOL.  After a few tries and some error messages, I gave up, plugged in the wifi and it behaved perfectly (although I'm still getting the, can't slew to that star you can easily see with your eyes balls message again using Sky Portal).  Luckily, there are so many stars I can just manually move the scope and look at stuff. I'd really like to know why it won't slew to a star, I'm looking at Spica then I want to go to Arturis, it's right there!!! 

 

So, I decided I need to update the software after doing a lot of internet research, but OH NO, I think this telescope WANTS to make me nuts.  So the info said, to upgrade the Nexstar+ handset first before doing the Starsense.  I jump on Amazon and buy the appropriate USB cable.  I plug the cable into the handset it is says that the cable is malfunctioning!  WHAT?  So now the stupid cable is out to get me too???  I had a game controller USB that fit the handset, when I plugged that in it recognized the device.  OK.  I download the software needed, it says to plug in and hold down the menu and logo button to get the boot loader, nothing happens at all, zero.  Then I get the message it's not plugged into the serial port!  Ummm, WHAT?  I didn't even know what the means!  More research.  Seriously, I feel like this is the Remington Mystery house.  We have this main house that was built then Celestron started adding crap onto it trying to make it all fit and it ends up being a maze of frustration to get anywhere with it.   

 

I found the driver because apparently Celestron didn't bother to update the software in the Nexstar + handset to begin with, just let someone else figure it out.  I am not tech savvy, I downloaded the driver, but I don't have a clue how to make it work.  I don't need to screw up my work computer either if I don't do it correctly. I sure didn't expect this to go smoothly because pretty much nothing else has with this thing.  

 

This is wearing me out!  Why does Celestron not sell these devices with upgraded software??  What do I do with this thing, return it?  

Edited by NanSi, 30 August 2024 - 09:48 AM.

[mlord]

Celestron do sell them fully up to date. Then they sit in a distributor warehouse for several months or longer, then at a retailer for a similar long time. Meanwhile, the world moves on and new firmware becomes available.

Edited by mlord, 31 August 2024 - 02:17 AM.

[NanSi]

That is so true, things do move on and if you don't keep up, one gets left behind, Like me. 

 

So, I did solve the problem, I cheated and called my IT guy from work.  I explained the issues, gave him access to my PC, he installed the correct drivers to plug in the USB, then, he got my software updating for the Nexstar+ and then the Starsene.  Aside from updating the driver (I'm glad he did that), As he showed me how to do the rest, it wasn't that hard and the multiple directions I was finding online were not helping. (Note to self, don't look at 11-year-old YouTube videos LOL)  I didn't need to do anything to the handset for it to go into bootloader once the software started to update it just did it all.  OK, now I'm ready to get out there and really enjoy this thing, but, it's raining tonight so it will have to wait.  Thanks for letting me vent!  I think I would have eventually figured it out if it had not been for it wanting the serial port (that was the one thing that really made me bang my head on the desk).  Now, when I buy a bigger scope, I'll know what to do (and I'll make sure they send it with updated software, perhaps the answer is to get it directly from Celestron instead of Amazon.  

[mwr1959]

I have a 5 year old 9.25 Evolution with Star Sense. Ready to start doing some fall time observing. Noticed that CFM has an update downloaded update but I can’t open the Jar file. Updated Java. But still no luck. Went to skip past the update but laptop sees the serial port but not the mount. Using Windows 7 and a mini usb cable. Looking for some help. Updated everything last December after a lot of trial and error and a lot of help from experienced users. Looking for some help again. I’m a beginner and not very tech savvy. Thanks ahead of time.

 

[frodus17]

130 SLT user here with an older non-usb Nexstar+ hand controller. I figured it'd be a good idea to update the firmware on the hand controller and base.

 

Boy was I wrong about that. I just spent the better part of 5 hours trying to get it running again. I kept getting error 16 and error 17 right after the update. They would not show the firmware versions in the handset consistently, so it seemed to be that something with the comms between the HS and MC was wacky. I couldn't re-flash the MC at all to try to make things right, and MCUpdate won't work with the latest Nexstar+ firmware.

 

From what I can tell, I think that updating the MC firmware through the handset using CFM somehow got the MC's in a state where they stopped functioning.

 

So what I did, was used an old archived version Archive_November_5_2019.zip of CFM: https://software.cel...installers/?CFM

 

And got this download from Michael Swanson: https://www.nexstars...xStarGPSFix.htm

Disabled updates in CFM. Restarted CFM. Copied Michael's zip contents into the Plus directory of CFM.

Downgraded the hand controller.

 

Then I restarted the mount/hand controller.

Downloaded MCUpdate MCupdateInstall_2_1_21.exe from here: https://software.cel...llers/?MCupdate

Right click, install in compatibility mode for windows 7.

Ran the installer.

Opened MCUpdate

Connected through the handset

Downloaded the SLT mount 5.18 firmware

Flashed

 

Now the motor controllers work again.

 

 

I think Celestron broke flashing somehow with CFM and it doesn't flash the MC properly.

Hope this helps someone!

[hidalgo]

I have a 5 year old 9.25 Evolution with Star Sense. Ready to start doing some fall time observing. Noticed that CFM has an update downloaded update but I can’t open the Jar file. Updated Java. But still no luck. Went to skip past the update but laptop sees the serial port but not the mount. Using Windows 7 and a mini usb cable. Looking for some help. Updated everything last December after a lot of trial and error and a lot of help from experienced users. Looking for some help again. I’m a beginner and not very tech savvy. Thanks ahead of time.

I wonder if Windows 7 works with this stuff at all. I'm no expert. It took me several weeks to sort this stuff out too. I was using the Starsense hand controller when I had the Starsense Autoalign but when I got the Starsense Autoguider I had to switch to the Nexstar hand controller. I had to update what seems like every driver I had. Also a bit strange is that I just got your message today 9/29/2024. Hope you figured it out cuz it made me nuts for weeks.

[hobsond]

130 SLT user here with an older non-usb Nexstar+ hand controller. I figured it'd be a good idea to update the firmware on the hand controller and base.

 

Boy was I wrong about that. I just spent the better part of 5 hours trying to get it running again. I kept getting error 16 and error 17 right after the update. They would not show the firmware versions in the handset consistently, so it seemed to be that something with the comms between the HS and MC was wacky. I couldn't re-flash the MC at all to try to make things right, and MCUpdate won't work with the latest Nexstar+ firmware.

 ...

Yeah, I made the same mistake early in my CPC 800 GPS experience.  Had to buy another controller board from AgenaAstro to get my telescope back.  I no longer update firmware on anything Celestron makes.  Sense then, I have had to replace the HC and change series resistors on the MC board to keep it working.

[RavenGhast]

Hello Everyone

 

I have a Celestron SkyProdigy 130  -  but without a Starsense Hand Controller.  ( I got the mount, tripod and OTA for less then $80 !!! )

 

I have plugged in my old Nexstar + Hand Controller,  and it does work (minus the Starsense Menu Options - can do a normal star alignment, slew, track, etc.)

 

I can also connect to the mount via USB with CPWI,  and CPWI does detect the mount as a SkyProdigy,  and it does allow me to initiate a Starsense Automatic Alignment  - BUT  -  whenever the SS Camera slews to the a portion of the sky and takes a photo,  it does seem to take the photo, then advises it is Processing the photo,  but EVERY time I get "No Stars Detected",  and then it slews again,  photo, process photo - "No Stars Detected" 

 

I live in an Urban area,  there is a little bit of light pollution.  I thought that if I change the GAIN on the camera,  it might work  -  but alas,  this option is not available on the Nexstar + HC,  and also,  the Starsense Menu in CPWI never seems to come available  (the menu option if there,  but with the "Spinning Orange Dots" and you cannot select it....

 

So my questions are  :-

 

    1.  Can you put Starsense HC Firmware onto a Nexstar +  HC?  (or will it either not work,  or worse,  kill the handset?)

    2.  Is there any other way to get to the camera gain settings,  without the Starsense Handset or an option in CPWI?

    3.  Are the failures to Platesolve simply down to having the wrong handset connected 

         (I thought not, as I thought the handset was "dumb" when using to access the mount by USB???)

    4.  Do I have to resign myself to having to fork out over $200 for a replacement Starsense Handset?  (money I don't have!  )

 

Any help / advice would be massively appreciated!!!

 

Many thanks 

 

Shaun

[mlord]

Which page of which Celestron Owners' Manual mentions a gain control?

[mlord]

   1.  Can you put Starsense HC Firmware onto a Nexstar +  HC?  (or will it either not work,  or worse,  kill the handset?)

   2.  Is there any other way to get to the camera gain settings,  without the Starsense Handset or an option in CPWI?

    3.  Are the failures to Platesolve simply down to having the wrong handset connected 

         (I thought not, as I thought the handset was "dumb" when using to access the mount by USB???)

    4.  Do I have to resign myself to having to fork out over $200 for a replacement Starsense Handset?  (money I don't have!  )

1. No, only Nexstar+ firmware can be installed and working on a Nexstar+ handset.  The special StarSense one was an anomaly in the Celestron line-up, with a much more powerful processor and much more memory, specifically to handle plate-solving from the camera.

 

2. Which page of which Celestron Owners' Manual mentions a gain control?

 

3. The failures to plate-solve have nothing to do with the Nexstar+ handset in that scenario.  You can even just leave that handset unplugged if using external software to control the mount/camera.

 

4.No need for a StarSense hand-control if you have other software options like CPWI, or a WiFi/BT connection for SkyPortal/SkySafari.

Edited by mlord, 22 October 2024 - 10:25 AM.