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QHY163M + QHYCFW2-M-US

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#1 Konihlav

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:40 AM

Dear CNers :-)

 

as some of you know, I am one of these beta 163m owners and, as typically, I face issues nobody else has (or see)... due to my silly questions and observations, QHY recently did a lot of driver updates, but I am still not 100% satisfied with the results and thinking that my camera has somehow more noise than the others have (just as seen in simple StdDev of a raw biases and darks as I have not yet moved from this base simple phase into real noise calculations like e.g. readout noise etc.).

 

Therefore, I have 2 questions on other QHY163M beta testers

 

#1 - first about filter wheel (I have the 7pos 36mm - the middle size - UltraSlim version):

is THIS NORMAL???

https://youtu.be/lswWwRw6_GA

even when powered up the disk can be easily moved by finger...

also, strange is that the wheel rotates always only in 1 direction which is quite silly... not speaking about the colorful blinking leds and issue in ascom driver when I can make it think to be on other position then it actually is... but let's start from beginning...

 

#2 - second, could you, please, share with me some of following information:

StdDev (in MaxIm DL CTRL+I switch Mode to Area and read StdDev number)

 

http://astrofotky.cz...ias-ambient.fit
http://astrofotky.cz...et-bias-m15.fit
http://astrofotky.cz...sec-ambient.fit
http://astrofotky.cz...-030sec-m15.fit
http://astrofotky.cz...-300sec-m15.fit

 

I would like you to be updated to the latest driver:

system driver 16-11-18

ASCOM capture driver 1.46

as these are latest of today.

 

a BIG THANK you to all...

 

BTW my StdDev readings are

 

bias at ambient - 35 ADU

bias at minus 15deg Celsius - 33 ADU

dark 30sec at ambient - 582 ADU

dark 30sec at minus 15deg Celsius - 169 ADU

dark 300sec at minus 15deg Celsius - 1527 ADU

Attached Thumbnails

  • Untitled-1.jpg

Edited by Konihlav, 27 November 2016 - 05:42 AM.

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#2 Konihlav

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:00 AM

BTW I also had a friends ZWO ASI1600 to play with (only for one afternoon) and my observation was that cooled dark frame (30seconds) had only a little bit higher StdDev then bias at the same settings (temperature, unity gain etc.)...

 

so maybe someone with ZWO ASI1600 could also test (at unity gain) and at certain cool point (-15 works fine during day) a bias StdDev a 30sec dark StdDev and a 300sec dark StdDev... all this data/information would be valuable for me, thank you!

 

to beta QHY163M testers - if you want some more stuff to try and play with, one of my observations was that when I make a bias in a sequence then it is OK (looks consistent) but after a longer pause it accumulated noise in the first sub downloaded. This was solved in driver. Next was the same, but using dark of 0.01sec instead of bias and next to try was make a bias after a long dark frame. My observation was that a bias taken after a long dark (all cooled) had notably higher StdDev then a following/next bias downloaded in sequence... so you may try to observe the stability of stddev of frames you download either in a sequence or after a pause or after a longer dark.

 

BTW my camera is, for sure, adequate way protected against stray light! I am not a beginner :-) in this regard.



#3 hnau

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 12:46 PM

#1 - first about filter wheel (I have the 7pos 36mm - the middle size - UltraSlim version):

is THIS NORMAL???

https://youtu.be/lswWwRw6_GA

even when powered up the disk can be easily moved by finger...

also, strange is that the wheel rotates always only in 1 direction which is quite silly... not speaking about the colorful blinking leds and issue in ascom driver when I can make it think to be on other position then it actually is... but let's start from beginning...

 

I ordered the UltraSlim model with my QHY163M as well, but the regular version was accidentally sent instead (CFW2-M-SR).  I have not used it yet as I've been waiting for the ultraslim replacement to be shipped.  I just checked my regular version and it does move exactly like yours does, both unpowered and powered.  Maybe David can chime in and confirm if his behaves in the same way.

 

edit: initial #2 comparison.  it looks like the your amp glow suppression is not functioning; here is a stretch of both your and my 30 sec / -15C / DSO preset for comparison:

 

qhy163m_pavel_hnau_dso_preset_30s_m15.jp

 

stdDev ADU (16-bit): 169.7 vs 50.5

 

 

300 sec / -15C / DSO preset:

qhy163m_pavel_hnau_dso_preset_300s_m15.j

 

stdDev ADU (16-bit): 1527.0 vs 222.8


Edited by hnau, 27 November 2016 - 02:38 PM.


#4 Cyclop_si

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 04:41 PM

This is my 300s dark at -15°C, taken with latest drivers and EZCap QT at gain 9 and offset 30 (same gain and offset as I have used it with previous driver version).

 

https://www.dropbox....0-CFW0.fit?dl=0

 

It looks strange to me... it does not exhibit any visible hot pixels (darks taken by previous driver version looked much more "normal" in that respect) and it has standard deviation of only 17.6.

 

I think I will try to take them with higher offset than 30 again ... I already have some strange statistics due to usage of too low offset in previous driver version as well.



#5 hnau

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:38 PM

strange indeed.  is that a calibrated dark?  I noticed sharpcap spits out its own master dark, which could alter the stddev considerably.  I just ran 3x 300s subs at gain 9 offset 30 at -15 C to match your settings and std dev results are 112.1, 112.5, and 113.4



#6 Cyclop_si

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:02 PM

Hnau, no this is not calibrated dark... well at least not by me. Maybe drivers are doing some calibration? This particular one is tenth dark taken in sequence of total 15 darks at that exposure and temperature... but all other looks very similar to this one, just minimal std variation among them.

 

Will try to take them again with different offset today.


Edited by Cyclop_si, 27 November 2016 - 11:03 PM.


#7 dvalid

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:16 AM

Hi, 

 

My US filter wheel behaves exactly the same way. Not sure if it affects positioning precision, cause as Pavel mentioned, it rotates only in one direction (I suspect my QSI camera is acting the same way, have to check though).

 

Another annoying bug - have to wait up 5 sec while Maxim is "changing filter", but I did not change the filter, just adjusted duration of the exposure...

 

I wonder, how did you manage to install the latest drivers? 

 

I 've unplugged the cable, restarted my PC several times, uninstalled older drivers manually before installation the latest one, but still getting an error message in Maxim that the Ascom driver is not compatible with the older system driver and I have to update it. and after each attempt to update, UpdateChecker keeps demanding to update the driver again. As you can see from the attachment, the current version is 16-11-1 (not sure if such version exists at all). To exclude any mistake I downloaded the latest version several times..

 

QHY_Update.jpg

 

So, can't check StdDev yet..

 

David


Edited by dvalid, 28 November 2016 - 12:48 AM.


#8 Cyclop_si

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 01:23 AM

I have tried new drivers with high offset. Here is 300s frame at -15°C with gain 9 and offset 256, as taken from EZCap QT (no calibration):

https://www.dropbox....1-CFW4.fit?dl=0

It has same standard deviation (17.6) as with gain 9 and offset 30.

 

For comparison, here is 300s frame at -15°C and gain/offset 9/30, taken with previous drivers and previous EZCap QT, which has standard deviation of 94.4:

https://www.dropbox....1-CFW0.fit?dl=0

 

Frames with new drivers looks much nicer... almost to nice to be truth... I hope I will have some opportunity to take some light frames today or in the following days and check if they are that nice as well.



#9 hnau

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:54 AM

I wonder, how did you manage to install the latest drivers? 

 

I 've unplugged the cable, restarted my PC several times, uninstalled older drivers manually before installation the latest one, but still getting an error message in Maxim that the Ascom driver is not compatible with the older system driver and I have to update it. and after each attempt to update, UpdateChecker keeps demanding to update the driver again. As you can see from the attachment, the current version is 16-11-1 (not sure if such version exists at all). To exclude any mistake I downloaded the latest version several times..

David, I also had an issue getting the latest driver to install initially.  I ended up removing the camera and driver via device manager:

 

Locate the camera under "AstroImaging Equipment"

Right click the camera, select uninstall

check box for "Delete the driver software for this device"

Restart computer and proceed with fresh install

 

I'm not sure if you're running with the 12v power on or not during install (I'm hesitant to do this without imaging software up and running because it seems like it's kicking the TEC on automatically; when I open imaging software after the camera has enumerated it's already dropped 10 C below ambient).  I've noticed that I sometimes have to disconnect both the usb and 12v before the camera will enumerate/re-enumerate properly.


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#10 dvalid

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 02:41 PM

 

David, I also had an issue getting the latest driver to install initially.  I ended up removing the camera and driver via device manager:

 

Locate the camera under "AstroImaging Equipment"

Right click the camera, select uninstall

check box for "Delete the driver software for this device"

Restart computer and proceed with fresh install

 It worked, thank you!

 

#2 - second, could you, please, share with me some of following information:

StdDev (in MaxIm DL CTRL+I switch Mode to Area and read StdDev number)

 

I would like you to be updated to the latest driver:

system driver 16-11-18

ASCOM capture driver 1.46

as these are latest of today.

 

a BIG THANK you to all...

 

BTW my StdDev readings are

 

bias at ambient - 35 ADU

bias at minus 15deg Celsius - 33 ADU

dark 30sec at ambient - 582 ADU

dark 30sec at minus 15deg Celsius - 169 ADU

dark 300sec at minus 15deg Celsius - 1527 ADU

 

Pavel, here are my results given in bold:

 

bias at ambient - 35 ADU  -  38 ADU
bias at minus 15deg Celsius - 33 ADU - 34 ADU

 

dark 30sec at ambient - 582 ADU -     338 ADU
dark 30sec at minus 15deg Celsius - 169 ADU  -    58 ADU

 

dark 300sec at minus 15deg Celsius - 1527 ADU - 218 ADU

 

Your camera looks noisier indeed :(

 

Cheers,

 

David


Edited by dvalid, 29 November 2016 - 03:41 AM.


#11 Konihlav

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 06:56 AM

thank you all for your input! I highly appreciate it!!!

 

ad 1 - if this is "normal" then I am really disappointed about this (I wonder what "Increased the precision for filter location." see http://qhyccd.com/QHYCFW2-M.html means, how "bad" it was before if this is improved).

 

ad 2 - seems strange indeed. I have contacted QHY about this. Would be good if even someone else can try 300sec dark frame at -15deg C using the DSO preset from current drivers. What StdDev would you read, if similar to David or some even different value...

 

new issue #3 to discuss - have you ever noticed such a bias?

biaswithstrangenoise.jpg

 

I have seen this with old drivers, with new drivers (most recent) and with using high quality 13.4V stabilized power supply (from 220V) and also with stabilized 12V high quality custom made power source (for mobile purposes) using battery pack of 20V step down to 12V in order to achieve high quality of stabilization - so two of my top power supplies behave the same...

 

This happens only sometimes and I suspect it happens when you turn on the TEC and during cooling process (when TEC is 100% power) you download the bias then you can hit this case. When the TEC maintains some set point level then it never runs for longer time on 100% so after reaching setpoint it did not show).

 

?

 

thanks!



#12 austin.grant

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:00 AM

ad 1 - if this is "normal" then I am really disappointed about this (I wonder what "Increased the precision for filter location." see http://qhyccd.com/QHYCFW2-M.html means, how "bad" it was before if this is improved).

 

I have had this exact filter wheel for a couple of years now, and I've never had an issue with filter alignment. In fact, in thousands of cycles I can tell you it's aligned the filters precisely centered over the camera sensor each time. I haven't opened up my filter wheel to do your test, but I have a test for you. Just run it, and see where the filters land. Do they repeatedly land centered? If so, stop worrying about it.

 

As far as I know, there's not a finger inside the filter wheel pushing on the carousel during normal operation.... :)


Edited by austin.grant, 29 November 2016 - 09:00 AM.

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#13 hnau

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 11:07 AM

ad 2 - seems strange indeed. I have contacted QHY about this. Would be good if even someone else can try 300sec dark frame at -15deg C using the DSO preset from current drivers. What StdDev would you read, if similar to David or some even different value...

that's the value at the end of my first response comparing the darks w/ DSO preset:

stdDev ADU (16-bit): 1527.0 vs 222.8



#14 Pauls72

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 12:18 PM

The DSO setting is not in the Native driver, it is in the ASCOM driver. The DSO setting is gain=17, offset=77.

 

30sec, -15C, gain=17, offset=77

30S.jpg

 

300sec, -15C, gain=17, offset=77

300s.jpg

 

This is my master bias. 100 @ 0.001 Seconds, -15C, Gain=11, Offset-30. The individual bias frames don't look any different.

MasterOffset_Bias_0001-15C_11g_30o_Small.jpg

 

 

 



#15 Pauls72

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 12:22 PM

Using the ASCOM Driver with DSO settings 30 sec, -15C Dark

30S_AscomDSO_Small.jpg

 

Using the ASCOM Driver with DSO settings 300 sec, -15C Dark

300S_AscomDSO_Small.jpg


Edited by Pauls72, 29 November 2016 - 12:22 PM.


#16 Konihlav

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 08:25 AM

thank you for your input guys!

 

so the issue #3 as I describe - weird interferience (horizontal banding) pattern visible when TEC is 100% and shooting biases in a sequence is somthing nobody of you noticed?

 

I managed to make 3rd attempt on 1st light.

Even though my darks look like this (with insane amount of "amp glow"? and therefore noise):

NGC1499-DARK.jpg

 

and though my single light frame (is terrible as the object and stars in corners are invisible when not calibrated):

NGC1499-LIGHT.jpg

 

then I managed to output this:

1480542218d.jpg

 

the reason why the image looks bad is also because I did not guide and therefore did not dither and therefore due to imperfect polar alignment the image drifted away and the soft trails from stars remains in the image (even when I darkened the background a lot).

 

So, even though the camera is somehow usable, I am not yet happy :-( QHY responded, in the meantime, stating there must be a light leak which is obviously not possible (I was even in the beginning testing with completely covered camera against strait light) - only case could be if the light source is inside of the camera...



#17 dvalid

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 11:28 AM

I had no chance to test bias frame at 100% cooling yet, will try tonight. 

 

As I was imaging exact the same target (with the different focal length though), just to compare noise levels - here is a single 10 min frame in Ha, NOT calibrated, just DBE and Histogram transformation:

NGC1499-0005Ha.jpg

 

 

Can't see any noticable ampglow..

 

Cheers,

 

David


Edited by dvalid, 01 December 2016 - 11:30 AM.


#18 dvalid

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 03:19 PM

Here comes the bias..

 

Screenshot 2016-12-02 00.14.54.jpg


Edited by dvalid, 01 December 2016 - 03:25 PM.


#19 Konihlav

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 03:51 PM

Hi David, my bias is also almost fine, but every dark looks like what I have shown above, terrible "amp glow" or whatever it is...

anyway, you and all others showed that your dark at DSO preset at -15 deg C in 300 seconds has from 167 to 218 to 222 StdDev while mine has 1527 +- ADU.

your single 10min Ha is perfect!!! like my 2 hours exposition...



#20 dvalid

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 03:59 PM

Hi David, my bias is also almost fine, but every dark looks like what I have shown above, terrible "amp glow" or whatever it is...

anyway, you and all others showed that your dark at DSO preset at -15 deg C in 300 seconds has from 167 to 218 to 222 StdDev while mine has 1527 +- ADU.

your single 10min Ha is perfect!!! like my 2 hours exposition...

 

Hi Pavel,

 

Thank you! It's bias at 100% TEC, as you've asked.

 

Cheers, 

 

David



#21 Konihlav

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 04:15 PM

aaa, I see, then the issue #3 I describe doesn't matter to you... thanks!



#22 ArkabPriorSol

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 10:35 PM

I'm also a beta tester of the QHY163M. I received it earlier this week. I'm patiently waiting on my extension/adapters to arrive so that I can have a first light test. But I've started testing dark frames and so far they've been looking great. Very similar noise results to Paul and David's data, no sign of amp glow yet. I'll post some screen captures soon.



#23 ArkabPriorSol

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 10:40 PM

Konihlav - I have the exact same filter wheel as you, and mine has a slight bit of wiggle too. It does position the filters pretty much dead center for each filter.



#24 austin.grant

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:01 PM

Okay, so after moving from the QHY9 with this filter wheel to the QHY163, I've decided to reduce my need for adapters as well as make the OAG slightly easier to use. The problem I've had in the past with bolting the OAG directly to the front of the filter wheel is that it's so close to the camera sensor that getting enough backfocus for the guide camera was challenging. I had to unscrew the front of the QHY5L-II to make it come to focus, and the Lodestar simply wouldn't. So to fix the problem, and reduce the adapter issue, I 3D printed a spacer to go between the OAG and the filter wheel. 

 

According to QHY, the QHY163 + Medium Ultra Slim filter wheel takes up yields a distance of 36mm to the sensor plane. The QHY OAG with the 42mm (T2) adapter plate is a total of 13mm thick. That leaves me at 49mm, with the majority of optical accessories calling for 55mm. 3D printing a 6mm spacer ring gets me at exactly 55mm, while making it much easier to focus the OAG with a variety of cameras. I printed the spacer slightly thicker than 6mm, then sanded both sides with 1000 grit sandpaper. I also had to buy longer M3 screws, but no big deal there. The results? Perfection! 

 

IMG_2715.JPG


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#25 austin.grant

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:03 PM

I know people are hesitant to use 3D printing for critical parts in the optical path, but after sanding this thing reads at 6.01 mm all the way around, with no variation. Oh, and it's ABS plastic, so no temperature issues like with PLA.  I think it's going to work like a charm, just need the clear skies to test it.

 

IMG_2716.JPG


Edited by austin.grant, 02 December 2016 - 10:57 PM.

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