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World Class Nikon S65 f12 Achromat vs Takahashi FS60CB Fluorite

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#1 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:08 AM

INTRODUCTION AND THOUGHTS:

 

Sorry about the low contrast photos, it was getting dark out and I shot them with a tablet. For those who skoff at small fracs like these, let me tell you that if you don't know what to observe with them, then you should think twice. These tiny scopes are an absolute boat-load of fun for those who truly appreciate observing many multiples and showpiece doubles within their resolving limits. Ask Derek Wong what happened the first time I tried his Nikon 65ED. This is the 65 achromat version, but I use these scopes alot because they're so easy and quick to set up. Having a 2 year old and a family doesn't exactly allow you time to go off, doing all you want at any time. Also, these little scopes require little time to acclimate. Using Dawes Limit, the Nikon comes in with a theoretical resolving power of 1.78" while the baby Tak comes in at 1.93". I barrowed this very rare Nikon refractor from Derek, along with some very rare Nikon .965 eyepieces he has. For those not familiar with these Nikon refractors, keep reading. I really love achromats, especially when their lenses are figured so beautifully. This is a world class sample and you will probably not find a finer achromat, anywhere in the world. Often, when I compare or evaluate telescopes, I don't concern myself too much with what glass is being utilized and often prefer not to know but may investigate later. Just hand the sample over, and I'll determine whether or not I like it under ideal seeing and it helps me keep an open mind. This night of seeing revealed stars which appeared exactly as you see in #8 and #9 of this Pickering scale for a frame of referance. 

 

http://www.damianpea...m/pickering.htm

 

You have to be careful when using this because it can be deceiving, depending on the brightness of the stars and the aperture being used. For example, Rigel, which is a very bright star, made the star image appear more like #7 on the Pickering scale. So, remember that when I use the Pickering Scale, it is primarily being used as a frame of referance as to how the stars "appear" to look on a particular given night through the eyepiece. I'd also like to briefly touch-up with others regarding the quality of optics and splitting double stars, because this too can deceive observers if they spend a great deal of time reading about optics and less time observing with them. There are a few ways one could interpret splitting double stars. One red flag I often see in the forums is when observers argue that a larger telescope is better for doubles because they have greater resolving power.This may often be true or not true in practice for several reasons, but don't forget too that observing doubles doesn't "always" demand, taxing out the resolving limits of your telescope. There are many multiple star systems you can enjoy observing without using a large telescope. In my opinion, a good 4" refractor can provide a lifetime of enjoyment for these applications. Another red flag I often see in the forums is that the quality of optics is not important for doubles because in theory, more energy is removed from the central airy disc and placed into the surrounding diffraction pattern, allowing the optics to resolve tighter doubles. So, imagine a really good optical system places roughly 85% of the light in the central airy disc while the remaining 15% goes into the diffraction rings etc. 

 

Okay, so the prior comments sound all fine & dandy, BUT, remember too that the more junk that gets removed from the airy disc and thrown into the outer diffraction pattern also means you hurt the contrast around the central airy disc as well. That means by comparison, when you magnify the stars in the eyepiece, you will often see more extraneous junk, hanging around the airy disc, particularly when the seeing fluctuates in and out. Not only that, but you also Inherit a small loss of light for seeing slightly fainter stars. And finally, this goes back to what I mentioned before, and that is, the pleasure of enjoying doubles doesn't always mean taxing the limits of the telescope. I will be doing that specifically for this review, but I would much rather prefer a high quality optic that presents the stars as cleanly as possible than worry about splitting the tightest stars the telescope can handle and besides, you can just use a slightly larger aperture for that. Often in practice, having a smaller airy disc doesn't always mean you will split finer doubles anyway. In theory you might, but don't get so wrapped up in all this hype. Overlaps are a beautiful sight anyway and if it all really bothers you that much, then make yourself a central obstruction and suspend it in front of the objective. In practice though, it's not going to do all that much. In the end, it's more about appreciating what it is we are seeing and how beautiful it appears to the eye. So, like "Hal" put it..... "I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over". People in the forums often get really pumped up about optics. I'm actually more curious to hear what others have to share about those theories in the field during practice. 

 

THE EYEPIECES:

 

As you can see, I have a slurry of .965 Nikon's and 1.25" Tak LE's. I'm a big admirer of small, light weight, narrow field eyepieces which help focus your attention on what's being observed. The barrels are also smooth, so I can switch them out quickly and easily. This is the type of observing where wide field eyepieces are less important and are actually, sometimes distracting because they're often heavier and present other unrelated objects in the FOV I don't need to see. 

 

THE DIAGONALS:

 

i used the stock Nikon prism which has easily proven to be incredible. The same goes for the Tak prism which I always use in the little Tak. In case others ask, I do like the Tak prism as a premium diagonal, even in the larger Taks as well. Where the compression ring resides, often falls into the safety bevels of eyepieces, forcing the observer to have to make additional rotations to secure remove eyepieces. My suggestion is either some sort of parafocalling ring, or you can use smooth barrel eyepieces or elevate the eyepiece. I have a rare parafocalling ring with a compression ring an drew thumb screw for this.

 

 

THE TARGETS:

 

The Trapezium

Rigel

Sigma Orionis 

h3945 CMa

Epsilon CMa

Zeta Cancri

 

THE NIGHT JUST PRIOR TO THIS:

 

Since John Volk, Derek Wong and I were observing Orion's Trapezium with a 5" f12 Apomax and a Tak FS128 just the night prior, we were enduring a night of about 5 out of 10 with seeing. It was barely enough that we could only see the E star trickling in and out of focus and that's how bad the seeing was. Seeing is more important while viewing the E and F components and can definitely be seen in lesser apertures easily if the observer knows where they're looking. This night was certianly no night for a reliable comparison of these two wonderful scopes. 

 

COMPARING THE TWO BABY FRACS:

 

I set both scopes out side by side at sunset for about an hour, prior to observation. I first fired both scopes at the Trapezium, switching between 99x and 127x in the baby Tak while switching between 111x and 156x in the Nikon. The first thing I noticed in the Tak is that all four stars were absolutely razor sharp! Perfect airy discs with an extremely faint, ill-defined diffraction ring around each star. It looked textbook perfect and the contrast was stunning! The appeared just like #8 on the Pickering scale, far surpassing the evening we had at Derek's the previous night. There was a good deal of space between all the stars and they were crystal clear and very still. I'm in extremely light polluted skies and even so, I tried to use averted vision to see the E star just for fun and even with averted imagination I could not make it out. In this particular instance, aperture would have helped. I then played with the two magnifications using the Nikon, and right away I could detect some subtle scintillating around each star. I immediately attributed this to tube currents, because at this level, the seeing was so rock stable that subtle aberrations, whatever they were, would be evident. After about another 20 minutes more had gone by, I was in awe at how incredible the Nikon was. Sure, it's a small scope and chromatic aberration is easier to suppress in this aperture, but good heavens this scope was standing right up there with the baby Tak, it was that good. At this point, I would say the Tak appeared to have about 10% or 15% more contrast in my visual estimation. 

 

I then decided to fire both scopes at Rigel and of course as expected, there was trifling evidence of false color in the Nikon, but the secondary component was slightly more evident in the Nikon compared to the baby Tak. I figured this was because I was running out of magnification at 127x with the eyepieces I had while using the baby Tak. I decided to drop the Nikon down to 111x and then the issue made more sense. Sometimes you have to play with the magnifications and exit pupils a bit to see what's going on. Between these two close stars, I gave a slight nod to the baby Tak, but not by much. Also, there was just a hair amount of false color in the Tak as expected on such a bright star at these magnifications. Both of these telescopes were already working beyond their theroretical limits, so no issues worth bothering with there. This just comes to show what an incredible achromat this Nikon truly is. I then pointed both scopes at Sigma Orionis which is one of the most breathtaking multiples in the entire heavens. Four stars stood out absolutely textbook in both scopes and subtle color shadings in each scope were visible. I just got the slightest hint that the appearance of the star colors although subtle, seemed to have just a tad bit more pop in the baby Tak, probably most likely from the slightly better color correction, but there was absolutely nothing that objectionable about the Nikon, it was really that good. 

 

Now, came h3945 CMa and what a beauty this winter Alberio is. Unfortunatley, this double was omitted from Bruce MacEvoy's 2nd edition of the Cambridge Double Star Atlas because it is not considered a true physical pair, but it is beautiful nevertheless. Bruce still did a splendid job on the 2nd edition with regard to other matters like organization of the lists by constellation instead of right ascension which I really like, but you just have to go into this atlas, knowing that it is mainly a binary double star atlas. Although this double is labeled as a double in this atlas, the designation is omitted, meaning no name is next to it. Both stars looked absolutely gorgeous in both scopes at 47x in the Tak and 43x in the Nikon. Another thing that's so cool about little scopes like these is how forgiving they are, even when stars are this low to the horizon. The colors stood out be briskly in both scopes. One thing I should also note is that since the Nikon was about twice the focal length of the baby Tak, the focus was a bit more forgiving while focusing the Nikon and I really liked that. The focuser knobs are large and buttery smooth and I wouldn't change a thing. 

 

Next, it was time to fire both scopes at Epsilon CMa and this is where things got really tricky. The primary stands out at magnitude 1.5 with a 7.5 secondary. That's a delta of 6 magnitudes which equates to about 250x fainter for the secondary. At a separation of about 8" it is easily within the limits of each scope, but the brightness ratio is tricky and the secondary appears so darn faint. Under this heavy light pollution, it was no easy task with these little scopes and makes it a very difficult double, despite my comments about using these telescope for wider doubles that are fun and easy. I wanted to incorporate this difficult double, specifically for this review, just for kicks and giggles. At the maximum magnifications I had available in each scope, I could swear I was seeing an extremely faint secondary, trickling in and out, but after checking this this double again tonight, using the 8" Zambuto, there's just no way I could have seen it in either of these fracs. The secondary looked quite faint, even in the 8" just to clarify matters more clearly. The contrast in each frac was really impressive and not that much different though.

 

Lastly, it was time to point each scope at the legendary Zeta Cancri and what a site to behold it is at high magnification. It required me to spend about two minutes to star hop to it through the finderscopes and Cancer is no easy constellation to see from bright city lights for a frame of referance. The A star is mag 5.3 while the B star is mag 6.3 and finally the C star is mag 5.9. In this case, all the stars are pretty similar in magnitude, but the A and B stars are separated by just 1.1" and beyond the resolving power of either of these telescopes, but what was really cool to see was that the AB stars appeared elongated, while the AC star is about 7.2" apart. This object looked nearly equal in beauty and contrast in both of these fracs at the maximum magnifications I had available without the use of an additional barlow. Zeta in both telescopes took on a light yellowish appearance overall. Only on bright stars does the chromatic aberration in the Nikon become all that noticeable and even then, it still performs as flawlessly as a world class achromat should.

 

CONCLUSIONS:

 

Between these two fracs, the color contrast may appear a tad more noticeable in the baby Tak, but it isn't that much. I spend an equal amount of time behind the eyepiece using each scope and really love them both. It's such a shame that these world class achromats are no longer made and it seems like no one puts as much care into them like it use to be during the era of these legendary Nikon's. Truly beautiful indeed and the Nikon's buttery smooth motions and flawless mechanical mount design are simply unparalleled by anything I've ever seen before or present. It is so beautifully built, you just have to see it to believe it. Finally, Derek also has an absolutely incredible Nikon 65ED model and I have no doubt it is the finest 65mm class instrument I've ever tested in my life. It is staggeringly flawless. Oh how wonderful it would be to have Nikon back on the astronomy market. It makes modern mechanics look like toys. 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Daniel Mounsey, 01 February 2017 - 07:17 AM.


#2 nicknacknock

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:22 AM

 These tiny scopes are an absolute boat-load of fun for those who truly appreciate observing many multiples and showpiece doubles within their resolving limits.

Unfortunately people sometimes get aperture fever and forget what small diameter instruments can do. Not only on doubles but on any object within their reach, generally easily punching to their aperture limit even in dreadful seeing or as you mention, close to the horizon.

 

However, your conclusion sums up why long focal length achromats with quality finish are not made any more. The Tak being a shorter instrument and easier to use makes much more sense. Combine it with the Q module and you have even better performance and you can use longer focal length eyepieces, making it easier to use eyepieces with longer eye relief.



#3 Traveler

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:27 AM

Daniel, very nice indepth review about these two world class small refractors. A good breakfast read!

About the comparison, did you use a diagonal with the Nikon and if so, which one did you use? About the Tak, is it the FS-60CB?



#4 Erik Bakker

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:47 AM

Those Nikon 65's and 100mm are stunning instruments. The ED versions are so good it would be near impossible to improve on them and shows what can be done when (visual) performance is leading in designing and manufacturing a refractor. A Nikon 100/1200 ED I once saw in Germany made an APQ 100/1000 sweat, even in color correction. Of course it was also a big and massive scope, especially on it's accompanying Nikon equatorial mount. Your report reminds of my FL 55S f/8 fluorite. Everything I pointed it at within it's light grasp was shown in absolute perfection. Long live the small portable quality scopes!



#5 Astrojensen

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:40 AM

Great reading! There is one thing that nags me, however: How can you see diffraction rings around the Trapezium stars in a scope as small as a 60mm? Other reports I've read also mentions diffraction rings around equally faint stars or the Jovian satellites, using 60mm refractors. I don't understand it. None of my small refractors show diffraction rings around anything that faint, nor did the 100/800mm TMB. All I can see is the spurious disk, nothing more. And it's not that I've not looked close and carefully. I'm not sure exactly where the cutoff limit is with my 63mm Zeiss, but both Delta Cygni and Theta Aurigae show a very faint first ring. Epsilon Lyrae show no rings, just four, tiny dots. I am not sure whether I can force the rings to come out by defocusing slightly, but I'll try it. 

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



#6 Fomalhaut

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 04:04 AM

Great reading! There is one thing that nags me, however: How can you see diffraction rings around the Trapezium stars in a scope as small as a 60mm? Other reports I've read also mentions diffraction rings around equally faint stars or the Jovian satellites, using 60mm refractors. I don't understand it. None of my small refractors show diffraction rings around anything that faint, nor did the 100/800mm TMB. All I can see is the spurious disk, nothing more. And it's not that I've not looked close and carefully. I'm not sure exactly where the cutoff limit is with my 63mm Zeiss, but both Delta Cygni and Theta Aurigae show a very faint first ring. Epsilon Lyrae show no rings, just four, tiny dots. I am not sure whether I can force the rings to come out by defocusing slightly, but I'll try it. 
 
 
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


Plus: The better the optics, the less energy is in the diffraction rings (which lowers their visibility). And reverse: The higher the visibility of diffraction rings, the lower the scope's optical quality.

Chris

#7 Astrojensen

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 05:49 AM

 

Plus: The better the optics, the less energy is in the diffraction rings (which lowers their visibility). And reverse: The higher the visibility of diffraction rings, the lower the scope's optical quality.

Yes, which makes it even more odd to me, that Daniel and others are seeing the diffraction rings in small, high-quality refractors, while I'm not. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark



#8 Derek Wong

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:04 AM

Thanks for the beautiful report Daniel.  I agree that in many ways I miss the era where so much attention was lavished on small achromats.  For those who have not seen these links, I believe Thomas Jensen posted this link to a lot of Nikon telescopes of the past.  The translation works OK in Chrome:

 

http://astro365.exblog.jp/i20/

 

Derek



#9 Sasa

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:29 AM

Daniel wrote:

 

For those who skoff at small fracs like these, let me tell you that if you don't know what to observe with them, then you should think twice. These tiny scopes are an absolute boat-load of fun for those who truly appreciate observing many multiples and showpiece doubles within their resolving limits. Ask Derek Wong what happened the first time I tried his Nikon 65ED. This is the 65 achromat version, but I use these scopes alot because they're so easy and quick to set up. Having a 2 year old and a family doesn't exactly allow you time to go off, doing all you want at any time. Also, these little scopes require little time to acclimate.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

+1 (and thanks for interesting report)

 

My most used telescope is 63mm Telementor for exactly the same reasons you have stated Daniel (in my case I have 3 daughters - 2, 5, and 7 years). I'm using it for everything, not only double stars. You can do many interesting things (just some examples from last year -  many of them I posted here on CN in observing forums):

 

- on planets:

 

http://www-hep2.fzu....0623_1940UT.jpg

http://www-hep2.fzu....0610_2040UT.jpg

 

- on Moon:

 

http://www-hep2.fzu...._Telementor.pdf

 

- DSO can be interesting as well (report from my "typical" backyard DSO session):

 

http://www-hep2.fzu...._Telementor.pdf

 

Heck, you could even see 8 billion distant quasar with it:

 

http://www-hep2.fzu...._Telementor.pdf


Edited by Sasa, 01 February 2017 - 02:26 PM.


#10 Sasa

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:55 AM

 

 

Plus: The better the optics, the less energy is in the diffraction rings (which lowers their visibility). And reverse: The higher the visibility of diffraction rings, the lower the scope's optical quality.

Yes, which makes it even more odd to me, that Daniel and others are seeing the diffraction rings in small, high-quality refractors, while I'm not. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

 

I have observed Trapez several times in Telementor (I have glimpsed barerly the E star only on several occasions). I don't recall seeing the diffraction rings, but I have not paid too much of attention to them. I will try next time.



#11 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:02 AM

Daniel, very nice indepth review about these two world class small refractors. A good breakfast read!

About the comparison, did you use a diagonal with the Nikon and if so, which one did you use? About the Tak, is it the FS-60CB?

 

Thank you and yes and yes to both. I used the stock Nikon prism which I thought was incredible as well as the Tak prism in the CB which is also really excellent. I'll add that to the review since you asked and I was thinking others would ask that question too. 



#12 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:19 AM

Those Nikon 65's and 100mm are stunning instruments. The ED versions are so good it would be near impossible to improve on them and shows what can be done when (visual) performance is leading in designing and manufacturing a refractor. A Nikon 100/1200 ED I once saw in Germany made an APQ 100/1000 sweat, even in color correction. Of course it was also a big and massive scope, especially on it's accompanying Nikon equatorial mount. Your report reminds of my FL 55S f/8 fluorite. Everything I pointed it at within it's light grasp was shown in absolute perfection. Long live the small portable quality scopes!

 

Ditto to that! 



#13 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:36 AM

Great reading! There is one thing that nags me, however: How can you see diffraction rings around the Trapezium stars in a scope as small as a 60mm? Other reports I've read also mentions diffraction rings around equally faint stars or the Jovian satellites, using 60mm refractors. I don't understand it. None of my small refractors show diffraction rings around anything that faint, nor did the 100/800mm TMB. All I can see is the spurious disk, nothing more. And it's not that I've not looked close and carefully. I'm not sure exactly where the cutoff limit is with my 63mm Zeiss, but both Delta Cygni and Theta Aurigae show a very faint first ring. Epsilon Lyrae show no rings, just four, tiny dots. I am not sure whether I can force the rings to come out by defocusing slightly, but I'll try it. 

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

 

 

Hi Thomas, I understand your question and it's very reasonable. I think two things occurred here. One is that they were extremely faint and ill-defined diffraction diffraction rings, depending on the brightness of the stars. I could see very faint bits of it, trickling in an out with the seeing on those tiny stars and the other reason is most likely because I was using very high magnifications for such small apertures. I've always noticed that when the magnifications get reduced, the patterns go away. 


Edited by Daniel Mounsey, 01 February 2017 - 07:40 AM.


#14 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:46 AM

 

 

Plus: The better the optics, the less energy is in the diffraction rings (which lowers their visibility). And reverse: The higher the visibility of diffraction rings, the lower the scope's optical quality.

Yes, which makes it even more odd to me, that Daniel and others are seeing the diffraction rings in small, high-quality refractors, while I'm not. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

 

 

I think it's very interesting you mention this. Next time we view at Derek's I'll have him take a look himself and hopefully soon we can get a good window of seeing at his place. One thing else I should say is that what I've noticed is that when the seeing appears extremely good like it did this night, that's when I've seen this occur.

 

btw Derek, that scope museum is incredible. 


Edited by Daniel Mounsey, 01 February 2017 - 07:57 AM.


#15 Astrojensen

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:48 AM

 

Hi Thomas, I understand your question and it's very reasonable. I think two things occurred here. One is that they were extremely faint and ill-defined diffraction diffraction rings, depending on the brightness of the stars. I could see very faint bits of it, trickling in an out with the seeing on those tiny stars and the other reason is most likely because I was using very high magnifications for such small apertures. I've always noticed that when the magnifications get reduced, the patterns go away.

Seeing definitely plays a big role here. It's easiest to see the rings in excellent seeing and that probably happens a lot more regularly at your site than mine, but in small apertures, excellent seeing does happen now and then at my site, too, and I have had nights where it was as near perfect as possible in the small refractors as possible, yet I can't recall seeing the rings on faint stars even then. Then again, I haven't been a very active double star observer in the recent decade, though I once was. 

 

One object I *did* pay a LOT of attention to with small telescopes in more recent years, were the Jovian satellites. I wanted to investigate the possibility of detecting the true disks in small scopes, so I observed them *intensely* with my 63mm Zeiss for several years, when Jupiter was high in the sky and whenever the seeing was good. I paid particular attention to events, where two moons of different size were close to one another. This project was HIGHLY interesting, because it turned out that even in the 63mm Zeiss, I could reliably tell the moons apart based on their hue and size differences! Ganymede was always the largest, with a golden yellow hue, Io was small and orange-pinkish, Europa was white and Callisto a murky grey. At high power, 170x - 210x, Io and Europa had the same size, but different hues. In mediocre seeing, they could be difficult to tell apart, but in excellent seeing, their hues were easy to tell apart. Ganymede was visibly larger than the others, even at 120x, but at 170x - 210x, its surface brightness was distinctly lower than that of Io and Europa, which IMMEDIATELY tells me that I was seeing its true disk. Callisto got extremely dim at 210x, fading almost to invisibility with direct vision!!! A 6th mag star at the same power had a MUCH brighter, smaller spurious disk, which means that I must again be seeing the true disk, overmagnified and dimmed to near invisibility.   

 

But I never saw diffraction rings around them, despite several other observers assuring me, that they did, also using 60mm's. Low or high power, good or poor seeing, neither made any difference to me. This has puzzled me to no end, because it was looking so very intensely at the satellites, yet didn't see the rings that other, very credible, observers tell me they saw regularly.

 

It looks to be a hazy night here tonight, if it stays clear and the seeing is good, I'll go out and test a number of stars and see how faint I can see, before the rings aren't visible to me any longer.

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark 



#16 Edrow10

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 02:59 PM

Excellent evaluation Daniel, appreciate your time in comprising it, with your busy work and family schedule and all.

:waytogo:



#17 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 04:16 PM

 

 

Hi Thomas, I understand your question and it's very reasonable. I think two things occurred here. One is that they were extremely faint and ill-defined diffraction diffraction rings, depending on the brightness of the stars. I could see very faint bits of it, trickling in an out with the seeing on those tiny stars and the other reason is most likely because I was using very high magnifications for such small apertures. I've always noticed that when the magnifications get reduced, the patterns go away.

Seeing definitely plays a big role here. It's easiest to see the rings in excellent seeing and that probably happens a lot more regularly at your site than mine, but in small apertures, excellent seeing does happen now and then at my site, too, and I have had nights where it was as near perfect as possible in the small refractors as possible, yet I can't recall seeing the rings on faint stars even then. Then again, I haven't been a very active double star observer in the recent decade, though I once was. 

 

One object I *did* pay a LOT of attention to with small telescopes in more recent years, were the Jovian satellites. I wanted to investigate the possibility of detecting the true disks in small scopes, so I observed them *intensely* with my 63mm Zeiss for several years, when Jupiter was high in the sky and whenever the seeing was good. I paid particular attention to events, where two moons of different size were close to one another. This project was HIGHLY interesting, because it turned out that even in the 63mm Zeiss, I could reliably tell the moons apart based on their hue and size differences! Ganymede was always the largest, with a golden yellow hue, Io was small and orange-pinkish, Europa was white and Callisto a murky grey. At high power, 170x - 210x, Io and Europa had the same size, but different hues. In mediocre seeing, they could be difficult to tell apart, but in excellent seeing, their hues were easy to tell apart. Ganymede was visibly larger than the others, even at 120x, but at 170x - 210x, its surface brightness was distinctly lower than that of Io and Europa, which IMMEDIATELY tells me that I was seeing its true disk. Callisto got extremely dim at 210x, fading almost to invisibility with direct vision!!! A 6th mag star at the same power had a MUCH brighter, smaller spurious disk, which means that I must again be seeing the true disk, overmagnified and dimmed to near invisibility.   

 

But I never saw diffraction rings around them, despite several other observers assuring me, that they did, also using 60mm's. Low or high power, good or poor seeing, neither made any difference to me. This has puzzled me to no end, because it was looking so very intensely at the satellites, yet didn't see the rings that other, very credible, observers tell me they saw regularly.

 

It looks to be a hazy night here tonight, if it stays clear and the seeing is good, I'll go out and test a number of stars and see how faint I can see, before the rings aren't visible to me any longer.

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark 

 

 

Thomas,

I'm actually fascinated that you brought this up and spoke to Derek about it this morning and he mentioned a couple of things I thought were worth mentioning and I'll follow up later. 



#18 Astrojensen

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:33 PM

 

 

Thomas,
I'm actually fascinated that you brought this up and spoke to Derek about it this morning and he mentioned a couple of things I thought were worth mentioning and I'll follow up later.

Thanks! I look forward to it. I was out for an hour or so with my Zeiss Telemator, looking at some various doubles and single stars with magnifications up to 179x (4.7mm ES82) and stars to mag 3 had visible rings, albeit dim ones. Mag. 2 stars had clearly visible rings. Mag. 4.3 Gamma Canis Minoris had traces of a VERY dim ring, while fainter stars showed no rings. It was quite hazy, however, I probably lost about 1.5 magnitudes at least, so I'll have to check again on a better night. 

 

Of the doubles, I looked at Castor, Epsilon Geminorum, Regulus, Gamma Leonis and Theta Aurigae. Theta Aurigae was by far the most difficult and the companion was a tiny glow, floating on the waving first diffraction ring of the main star. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark



#19 Derek Wong

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 09:31 PM

 

One object I *did* pay a LOT of attention to with small telescopes in more recent years, were the Jovian satellites....

 

But I never saw diffraction rings around them, despite several other observers assuring me, that they did, also using 60mm's. Low or high power, good or poor seeing, neither made any difference to me. This has puzzled me to no end, because it was looking so very intensely at the satellites, yet didn't see the rings that other, very credible, observers tell me they saw regularly.

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark 

 

Hi Thomas:

 

A few years ago you convinced me to look at Jupiter’s moons through small scopes at high magnifications.  I did some simulations and found that in a lot of cases the first diffraction ring is drowned out by the image of an extended object.

 

I could not see diffraction rings on the moons at that time in the 65mm.  In order to see them with small scopes, I think we need to try them under different circumstances, with good/poor seeing, using brighter but smaller moons, away from and at opposition, and with more aberrations in the scope to bring out the energy into the third and fourth rings.  I may try a SAFIX to add some spherical aberration.

 

I will try computer simulations again but I think we should try to do this visually first.  Also, I brought up the idea of you writing an article about these kind of small scope moon observations.

 

Derek


Edited by Derek Wong, 01 February 2017 - 09:32 PM.


#20 Astrojensen

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:39 AM

I've looked at the Jovian moons in all kinds of seeing, good and bad, both at opposition and well away from it, but still never seen the diffraction rings. What I haven't done, is looking with a telescope with a lot of spherical aberration, because all my small refractors have excellent correction.

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


Edited by Astrojensen, 02 February 2017 - 03:40 AM.


#21 davidmcgo

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:12 AM

Years back I had a superbly sharp orange tube Celestron 5 that showed diffraction rings on the Galilean moons.  So a large central obstruction and that diameter seemed to do it.  I have not seen the effect in any of my other scopes.

 

Dave



#22 davidmcgo

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:23 AM

I'll add that I really enjoyed Daniel's post on the shootout and am surprised the baby Tak did so well against the Nikon.  The curves are steep and tolerances really small for a short fl doublet Apo and a lot of spherochromatism still there compared to the long fl Nikon.

 

Dave



#23 Derek Wong

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 06:44 AM

I'll add that I really enjoyed Daniel's post on the shootout and am surprised the baby Tak did so well against the Nikon.  The curves are steep and tolerances really small for a short fl doublet Apo and a lot of spherochromatism still there compared to the long fl Nikon.

 

Dave

I think that at that small aperture, f/6 gives you quite good images.  I have heard that the polychromatic Strehl is ~0.9 or so for the Tak FS-60 (I may be a slightly off).  I know that Daniel said that he chose this particular one because it had excellent spherical correction.

 

A 63mm f/18 achromat has a polychromatic Strehl of ~0.9:

 

http://www.cloudynig...opes/?p=6402051

 

A 63mm f/13 standard achromat will be substantially lower than 0.9 and therefore the Nikon's chromatic aberration may put it just behind the Tak with its spherochromatism, despite the slight aperture difference and the fact that the Nikon figure with a green filter is superb.

 

Another piece of evidence:

 

http://www.cloudynig...n-fiction-r2452

 

In Fig 3, a 100mm f/6.3 FPL-53 doublet is just ahead of an f/15 achromat even though the doublet is handicapped by a bit more spherical aberration.  At 60mm the balance must tip more in favor toward the apo assuming that both scopes are are outstanding examples.

 

Regardless, both scopes give great images.  We compared this particular 65mm f/12 Nikon achromat to the 65mm ED f/12 Nikon at an earlier date on Jupiter and a variety of other targets and although the difference was visible, it was not as large as what we expected.

 

Derek


Edited by Derek Wong, 03 February 2017 - 06:58 AM.


#24 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:02 AM

 

 

 

Thomas,
I'm actually fascinated that you brought this up and spoke to Derek about it this morning and he mentioned a couple of things I thought were worth mentioning and I'll follow up later.

Thanks! I look forward to it. I was out for an hour or so with my Zeiss Telemator, looking at some various doubles and single stars with magnifications up to 179x (4.7mm ES82) and stars to mag 3 had visible rings, albeit dim ones. Mag. 2 stars had clearly visible rings. Mag. 4.3 Gamma Canis Minoris had traces of a VERY dim ring, while fainter stars showed no rings. It was quite hazy, however, I probably lost about 1.5 magnitudes at least, so I'll have to check again on a better night. 

 

Of the doubles, I looked at Castor, Epsilon Geminorum, Regulus, Gamma Leonis and Theta Aurigae. Theta Aurigae was by far the most difficult and the companion was a tiny glow, floating on the waving first diffraction ring of the main star. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

 

 

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for hanging in there. I finally managed to chime back in here. Derek mentioned something that I felt deserved some mention. What I did not share was chromatic error and spherochromatism with regard to the appearances of the each component in Theta Orionis and the very faint and trickling diffraction rings. Sadly, I've been unable to replicate the observation on Theta because the weather has not cooperated just yet, but I'll definitely be doing the test again to pay more attention to this specific issue and I will check precisely what magnitude I no longer see the artifact using a detailed AAVSO chart. I can't yet really quantify if and how much that may have contributed while in-focus to the ill-defined pattern since the components are fainter, but what I can say is that whenever I've tested and compared refractors of these type (meaning doublets) what I've notice on brighter stars at higher magnifications like this is a very slight color dispersion, visible around brighter stars. When looking at fainter stars like Theta, what I notice in comparisons is just a very slight loss of star color contrast on the stars themselves while no color dispersion  appears visible. You may recall historical records where the "appearance" of star colors were somewhat all over the map due to these factors. This case however is not that extreme, but how much of that issue pours out or contributes to the tiny diffraction ring, once again is difficult to quantify visually. In the end, it may have been a contributing factor to the visibility of the rings as well.

 

One thing I can't say enough though is how solid the Trapezium appeared. It was so defined and crystal clear, it was like being in a controlled environment and #8 Pickering is about the best visual comparison to replicate it. I will try to add the Nikon 65ED to the mix and see if anything changes. The polychromatic Strehls Derek posted are definitely interesting and worth mention too btw. 

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Edited by Daniel Mounsey, 03 February 2017 - 09:04 AM.


#25 Sasa

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:42 AM

Daniel, speaking of colors, how does the brightest component of Trapezium © appears to you? In my smaller refractors (Telementor and AS80), it was of quite intense deep golden color despite its very hot spectral type. It was for me quite a surprise the first time I have noticed it.




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