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Who loves basic/simple glass eyepieces?

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#51 RussL

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 10:11 PM

I have an 8mm TMB Planetary that I like very much. In my 2x Barlow I watched the other night as stars went all the way to the edge perfectly crisp. And that was in my ST80!

I also like the no-name 25mm Plossl that came with my C80ED. Big eye lens and tons of eye relief.

Then, there's my 40mm Orion Sirius Plossl. Views are great.

Bought a TV 32mm Plossl. Love it.

The thing is, I don't mind 50°. All I need is enough eye relief for wearing glasses, and decent edge performance. I love 1.25" format, the lightweight design, and affordability of simple eyepieces. And their performance is great, even in my f5 refractors.
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#52 azure1961p

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 10:43 PM

Over the years I have been wooed by ultrawidefieldmegahyper eyepieces. Very intoxicating.
Then lately I've been enjoying a plossl or two, konig, erfle etc. nothing crazy like Zeiss ortho. They bring me back to my original observing thrills. Sometimes I think maybe a set of TV plossls would make me happy. My first TV eyepiece was an 11mm plossl bought for me by my late wife.
I fondly recall the "Woh!" I felt from the contrast.
Some amount of sentamdntality here but ....

 

 

I prefer 4 element oculars only. Impotant though is the fact that my scopes are long focus so these eye piece deliver premium performance. 

 

Pete



#53 precaud

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 12:46 AM

I too am a minimalist when it comes to eyepieces, and have basically four or five minimal-glass sets to choose from.

 

Last night I had a 5mm compare on several targets, using the ED127 (190x, .66mm exit pupil) . The Trap to see how cleanly E and F were presented. Iota Cass for cleanness of split, Polaris for scatter halo size, and some others. Participants were a 5mm Ultima, 5mm Paradigm, and a 5mm Delite which I got from the OP last fall but have had rare chance to use since.

 

The Paradigm images seemed brighter on every target, though nothing was revealed that the other two didn't show. The nebula in Orion seemed brighter. Not quite as sharp as the other two, but very close. Scatter (which I really dislike in high-power observing) was the worst of the three but only by a scunt. Or was that a scoshe?

 

Except for FOV and eye relief, the Ultima and Delite were tied in many respects. Similar contrast and edge-to-edge sharpness (though the edge of the Ultima was hard to see due to vanishing eye relief). The Ultima may have had a slight edge with scatter, but not always. The Delite had slightly better resolution (Iota Cass gave cleaner splits and more circular stars). Putting it all together, that the Delite did basically as good or better than the Ultima, and did it with comfortable eye relief and a wider FOV  was impressive. I was expecting it to have less scatter, but its not bad.

 

If I had to choose one and sell the others, I'd keep the Delite. But I don't have to.


Edited by precaud, 23 February 2017 - 09:38 AM.

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#54 Peter Besenbruch

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 01:47 AM

The thing is, I don't mind 50°. All I need is enough eye relief for wearing glasses, and decent edge performance. I love 1.25" format, the lightweight design, and affordability of simple eyepieces. And their performance is great, even in my f5 refractors.

My God! You might even be able to save for retirement! ;)


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#55 MartinPond

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 08:43 AM

 

"where stray light through the Ethos is not as well controlled"

This was my point, with ~20 air to glass surfaces in an Ethos it's not possible to handle stray light as well, or be as precise, as an Ortho or Plossl with only 8.  However, I would phrase what you said differently.  The Ethos does an amazing job of handling stray light, but it can never compare to a quality ortho since it has more than twice the elements in play.

 

Technically, an Ortho or Plossl only has 4 air-glass surfaces.   (the Ethos is similarly reduced, but more surfaces for sure).

 Kellners, Aspherics, and 1,2-Konigs also have just 4 air-glass surfaces.

 

At F8 or F10    and 10mm or 12mm,  I go for the extra field and eye relief of the 1,2-Konig(blackened), and it's 90-100% sharp.

At F5 , F8    and F10, 15mm--25mm: the contrast of a plain (flat-outer-faced) Plossl is intense.

 

At F8 and up,   the 23mm SVBONY aspheric is actually a very rich, crisp view...and pretty wide. 

   Plastic field lenses can be excellent over an EP FL of 20mm, and their chromatics are extremely good

   (CR-39 plastic has an awesome Abbe index of 58). Smaller ones....meh.  Some 1,2-KOs in 12x25s

    have a horrible eye lens.

 

My favorite Kellner is a 15mm pulled from a pair of Zeiss 6x30 Silvarems.  Excellent at F7 and up.

The keys to contrast seem to be a completely threaded interior (blackened) and the 'volcano' top.

Volcano Kellners with a conical inner chamber (or 'pushing can') seem similar in contrast.  


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#56 RussL

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 08:56 AM


The thing is, I don't mind 50°. All I need is enough eye relief for wearing glasses, and decent edge performance. I love 1.25" format, the lightweight design, and affordability of simple eyepieces. And their performance is great, even in my f5 refractors.

My God! You might even be able to save for retirement! ;)

LOL, I'm already there, and it's one reason I can't afford too much.
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#57 bobito

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 10:31 AM

Technically, an Ortho or Plossl only has 4 air-glass surfaces.   (the Ethos is similarly reduced, but more surfaces for sure).

Orthos have 4 lens elements, each of those elements has two sides, thus 8 air to glass surfaces.  Unless you know of an oil spaced ortho... ;)



#58 MartinPond

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 10:46 AM

glass-to-glass passes through canada balsam or cured resin......not air.

All coublets.   Air-spaced doublets don't happen....not since the 1930s. 

 

A Plossl only has 4 air-glass interfaces.


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#59 bobito

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 10:57 AM

Ah, this is a new one for me, thanks for the explanation.  

I had always assumed that EP elements were figured in a similar way to Refractor elements and had never come across this.  I'll have to do some research to fill in that gap in my knowledge... Off to google I go!

 

Edit to add:  This also answers a question I always had about why I never see oil spaced EPs.


Edited by bobito, 23 February 2017 - 11:01 AM.


#60 Scott99

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 01:27 PM

almost everything I use is minimum glass!  within this photo are 8 three-element eyepieces, 8 four-element eyepieces, and 3 five-element - I still have all of them, the two Leica widefields did not get used are on the outs, a Masuyama 50mm has also joined the club:

 

post-26541-0-44819600-1446834788.jpg


Edited by Scott99, 23 February 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#61 RussL

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 06:54 PM

Ok, I'm coming out and shamelessly admitting that what I observe with 90% of the time is:

32mm Tele Vue Plossl

25mm no-name Plossl that came with my C80ED. Used to use a 25mm Celestron SMA.

8mm TMB Planetary (a real TMB Optical).

I sometimes bring out my 2" 32mm Tele Vue Wide Field.
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#62 MortonH

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 07:01 PM

 

"where stray light through the Ethos is not as well controlled"

This was my point, with ~20 air to glass surfaces in an Ethos it's not possible to handle stray light as well, or be as precise, as an Ortho or Plossl with only 8.  However, I would phrase what you said differently.  The Ethos does an amazing job of handling stray light, but it can never compare to a quality ortho since it has more than twice the elements in play.

 

 

Not saying I disagree with your statement, but seeing is also important:

 

http://www.cloudynig...-eps/?p=6901930

 

Post #13


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#63 MortonH

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 07:08 PM

My 'new' Parks Gold Series 10mm performed very well last night.  Contrast was good and ER not too tight.  Played with the 35mm Ultrascopic as well.

 

I also tried out a 30mm Paragon that I have on loan.  It was great but last night I preferred the narrower FOV of the others.  Sometimes you just don't need wide angle EPs and it's nice to have another set.



#64 turtle86

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 07:27 PM

 

 

"where stray light through the Ethos is not as well controlled"

This was my point, with ~20 air to glass surfaces in an Ethos it's not possible to handle stray light as well, or be as precise, as an Ortho or Plossl with only 8.  However, I would phrase what you said differently.  The Ethos does an amazing job of handling stray light, but it can never compare to a quality ortho since it has more than twice the elements in play.

 

 

Not saying I disagree with your statement, but seeing is also important:

 

http://www.cloudynig...-eps/?p=6901930

 

Post #13

 

An Ethos on a night of excellent seeing will beat a good Ortho on a night of average seeing every time.


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#65 barbie

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 11:32 PM

I've viewed the planets through several Ethos at my club's star parties and was singularly unimpressed by the lack of contrast compared to my orthos and plossls.  I'll keep my simpler eyepieces, thank you very much!!!



#66 NHRob

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 11:41 PM

Ethos ... meh!



#67 MortonH

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 01:46 AM

I've viewed the planets through several Ethos at my club's star parties and was singularly unimpressed by the lack of contrast compared to my orthos and plossls.  I'll keep my simpler eyepieces, thank you very much!!!

 

I'm frequently unimpressed by the views through eyepieces I can't afford!  :lol:



#68 eyepiecedropper

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:42 AM

I never developed an interest in complex ep designs since I started in the 80´s with Vixen OR´s.

Since then I tried out almost every scope design but never thought that I was missing anything with my quality plossl and orthos for planetary.

I had a (very) short and disappointing test drive with the former hyped TS Planetary HR that really cured me. In - out and out of my sight.

 

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#69 starcanoe

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:03 AM

 

 

 

"where stray light through the Ethos is not as well controlled"

This was my point, with ~20 air to glass surfaces in an Ethos it's not possible to handle stray light as well, or be as precise, as an Ortho or Plossl with only 8.  However, I would phrase what you said differently.  The Ethos does an amazing job of handling stray light, but it can never compare to a quality ortho since it has more than twice the elements in play.

 

 

Not saying I disagree with your statement, but seeing is also important:

 

http://www.cloudynig...-eps/?p=6901930

 

Post #13

 

An Ethos on a night of excellent seeing will beat a good Ortho on a night of average seeing every time.

 

 

And my naked eyes kick butt on a clear night vs my 12 inch dob when its cloudy....


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#70 Scott99

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:09 PM

I never developed an interest in complex ep designs since I started in the 80´s with Vixen OR´s.

Since then I tried out almost every scope design but never thought that I was missing anything with my quality plossl and orthos for planetary.

I had a (very) short and disappointing test drive with the former hyped TS Planetary HR that really cured me. In - out and out of my sight.

very similar to my own experience.  I latched onto orthos & Clave plossls in the 80's.  The big widefields tend to come and go, my favorite plossls & orthos become a permanent collection.  It doesn't feel right handling that huge lens and eventually I realize that I see more in objects with the smaller, minimum glass eyepieces.  That chills my desire to fire up the heavy wide fields.   

 

Except for the lowest-power eyepiece, I've always been partial to a 40mm 70-degree sweeper/finder ep, dating back to the Konig days.  Especially useful in light pollution.  I always have one 2-inch wide field and one around the 15mm-16mm range.  Usually I'll try to dial in a view with one SPL or Plossl to properly frame the object at higher power and try to discern critical details.


Edited by Scott99, 24 February 2017 - 08:11 PM.


#71 brisdob

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:09 PM

I think I may be rediscovering orthoscopics.  A few nights ago the seeing was really good and I had my old Vixen ED80S F9 out and just for fun was seeing how close I could get to the Dawes limit on close doubles.  With the 5mm and 3.5MM LVW's I was waiting for moments of still seeing to split them.  Just for fun I plugged in the 0.965 diagonal and 5mm Vixen ortho which came with the telescope.  They have just been sitting on the shelf for as long as I can remember, when I got the telescope the first thing I did was buy a Vixen 1.25" visual back.  The difference with the 5mm orthoscopic was quite staggering.  Very close doubles just sprang into view.  No more "ah wait, certainly elongated, ah there it is, nope it's gone."  Just clean splits.  Sorely tempted to pick up a few quality 1.25" orthos for high power.


Edited by brisdob, 24 February 2017 - 08:13 PM.

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#72 Messyone

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:28 PM

I do. TEC turret with UOVT's 18 12.5 9 7 6. Not the 'best' ortho's but great views anyway.

 

Other simples are 2" UO 55mm plossl and RO 65XL plossl.

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#73 jrbarnett

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:28 PM

Over the years I have been wooed by ultrawidefieldmegahyper eyepieces. Very intoxicating.
Then lately I've been enjoying a plossl or two, konig, erfle etc. nothing crazy like Zeiss ortho. They bring me back to my original observing thrills. Sometimes I think maybe a set of TV plossls would make me happy. My first TV eyepiece was an 11mm plossl bought for me by my late wife.
I fondly recall the "Woh!" I felt from the contrast.
Some amount of sentamdntality here but ....

To the exclusion of other designs?  Nah.  In addition to other designs?  Sure.

 

These days when I go out for an extended New Moon session or camp, I'll take a handful of wide, super wide and hyper wide field eyepieces, and also a set of something simple.  A full set of 1.25" Series 4000 Super Plossls, or Televue Plossls, or Brandons, or Pentax SMC Orthos, or UO Orthos, etc., takes up very little space.

 

For me the narrower field eyepieces provide personal context; I can look back in time and see it how I used to see it.  This is great for two things; nostalgia and making me appreciative that there are such things as innovation and progress.   :grin:

 

Regards,

 

Jim


Edited by jrbarnett, 25 February 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#74 jrbarnett

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:41 PM

I think I may be rediscovering orthoscopics.  A few nights ago the seeing was really good and I had my old Vixen ED80S F9 out and just for fun was seeing how close I could get to the Dawes limit on close doubles.  With the 5mm and 3.5MM LVW's I was waiting for moments of still seeing to split them.  Just for fun I plugged in the 0.965 diagonal and 5mm Vixen ortho which came with the telescope.  They have just been sitting on the shelf for as long as I can remember, when I got the telescope the first thing I did was buy a Vixen 1.25" visual back.  The difference with the 5mm orthoscopic was quite staggering.  Very close doubles just sprang into view.  No more "ah wait, certainly elongated, ah there it is, nope it's gone."  Just clean splits.  Sorely tempted to pick up a few quality 1.25" orthos for high power.

Too bad you didn't have a 5mm LVW to make the comparison more relevant; apples and apples.  There's a big difference in magnification (and all of the evils that come with increased magnification) between a 3.5mm and 5mm eyepiece in most any scope.  Generally for double stars the best view will always be had using the longest eyepiece focal length that still allow you to see the split.  Planets are the same (i.e., the best quality view is with the lowest power eyepiece that still lets to detect the detail you're looking for).  

 

My experience has pretty much been the opposite.  When comparing identical or very close focal lengths, eyepieces matter very little on double stars.  There are a few poorly designs dogs out there (TMB Planetaries for example), but typically there's nothing I can't split in a Type 6 Nagler that I can in a Zeiss Ortho and vice-versa.  Now if double stars are your thing, that's actually really good news since old, simple eyepiece are very inexpensive and there's no advantage on such targets of buying ultra-wides.  On the other hand, splitting a given double with an 8mm LVW is a much more pleasant ergonomic experience than doing so with an 8mm Televue Plossl or TMB Supermono.

 

Regards,

 

Jim



#75 Scott99

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 03:11 PM

I do. TEC turret with UOVT's 18 12.5 9 7 6. Not the 'best' ortho's but great views anyway.

 

Other simples are 2" UO 55mm plossl and RO 65XL plossl.

nice mount!  Is that homemade?  Looks like a TEC/Unitron hybrid.


Edited by Scott99, 25 February 2017 - 03:11 PM.



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