291 replies to this topic

[earlyriser]

I swear, these new LED lights are popping up like mushrooms. One my way home today, I discovered that a neighborhood gas station had replaced their previously overly intense lights (which were at least cutoff lights) with these monstrosities. They are aimed at 45 degrees to the horizontal. The attached photo was taken with an EV value of 7, which will give photographers an idea of how bright these are. A normal exposure for subjects under bright street lights would be an EV of 4. Bright interior shots at home are normally exposed at about an EV of 6. Each step up in EV equates to double the brightness.  You'll notice that even at EV 7, the areas illuminated by the lights are grossly over exposed. Complaints to the city to follow tomorrow when zoning enforcement is open.

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[jim kuhns]

I feel your pain. But as always money talks, you can not fight the power companies and
really win, and big municipalities talk loud.

[Neptune]

Post my pain, EYEPIECE UNDERCUTS!

[Redbetter]

Next neighborhood over has new LED streetlights and I like them a lot because they are mostly cut off/directional at the street instead of 90 degrees into my eyes like all of the traditional lamps on my street.  They would be a pain if pointed at a 45, though.

 

My pain is the horrible old non-cut off glowing street lamps on my street.  One went out and I was thrilled, but it was fixed less than a week later.  The other thing I have noticed is that on the street with the new lamps people aren't leaving on as many carriage lights, while on my street many people leave them on all night, making things worse.  I can't help but wonder if it is related to the glare created by the old unshielded lamps that put more light out to the side than on the street below.

[rekokich]

I know... The world has gone positively insane with "the more, the better" attitude, which now includes street lighting. The hospital visitor parking lot a few blocks from my house looks like your gas station. The thing is, it is totally empty all night long, and there is a pathetic contrast between such blazing illumination and complete desolation.

 

The other thing is that they are installing these blasted lights all over town. I literally have to put down my sun visor when driving home to prevent losing dark vision between the lights, and running over some poor fool who doesn't realize that I am half blind from too much light.

 

The worst thing of all now is driving on dark country roads and coming against a newer vehicle with these dazzling "daylight" headllights. Aside from temporary loss of vision, I literally feel pain in my eyes. And, the situation is much worse in fog.where blue light scatters more, or in the rain when the light reflects on the wet road.

 

I know this is an astronomy website, and I am also concerned that my CLS-CCD filter will soon become useless but, primarily, I would like to stay alive long enough to use it. It seems that excessive illumination from street lights, traffic lights, headlights, and emergency vehicle lights may actually lead to MORE accidents. Here are several links to consider:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...reetlights-ama/

http://www.roadsafet.../news/4636.html

http://www.treehugge...-accidents.html

http://www.headlight-reform.org/

 

Rudy

[Illinois]

Chicago! Sad!

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[earlyriser]

I feel your pain, Illinois. What do they plan to do on that street? Free dental exams? 

[earlyriser]

I feel your pain. But as always money talks, you can not fight the power companies and
really win, and big municipalities talk loud.

I'll fight it anyway. This particular guy is a mom-and-pop franchise owner, and I doubt he wants to tangle with the local ticked off attorney on a mission from God. Coincidently, there is a community council meeting tonight, so I guess I'll start there.

Edited by earlyriser, 07 March 2017 - 07:27 AM.

[George N]

I swear, these new LED lights are popping up like mushrooms. One my way home today, I discovered that a neighborhood gas station ......

That "glare bomb" on the right seems the worst thing in this picture. The white color is bad, but at least it is shielded.

 

There is nothing being done at this station that requires the light level seen. However, I bet that the station owner wants to protect himself from lawsuits claiming that someone was injured as a result of poor light levels. Another reason small businesses often want these high light levels: they believe that the brightness makes them stand out versus their competitors and thus they will get more business. 

 

This picture is a perfect advertisement for anti-LP laws that set a legal upper limit to lighting.

 

One other thing - most LED lighting can be easily adjusted in brightness - if wanted.

[George N]

After seeing these, I guess I have nothing to complain about - image looking south from my camp on Indian Lake, NY.

 

 

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[earlyriser]

 

I swear, these new LED lights are popping up like mushrooms. One my way home today, I discovered that a neighborhood gas station ......

That "glare bomb" on the right seems the worst thing in this picture. The white color is bad, but at least it is shielded.

 

There is nothing being done at this station that requires the light level seen. However, I bet that the station owner wants to protect himself from lawsuits claiming that someone was injured as a result of poor light levels. Another reason small businesses often want these high light levels: they believe that the brightness makes them stand out versus their competitors and thus they will get more business. 

 

This picture is a perfect advertisement for anti-LP laws that set a legal upper limit to lighting.

 

One other thing - most LED lighting can be easily adjusted in brightness - if wanted.

 

Hopefully, I'll be able to persuade the local community council that this is a visual blight on the neighborhood and get the station owner some bad press in the local newsletter. I also filed a complaint with the building department for violating the exterior lighting code, but who knows if they really enforce that section. If all that fails, I'm not sure what I can do. Maybe one of the neighbors would be willing to file suit if I took the case pro-bono.

 

None of the new poll mounted lights are shielded.  The old ones were, but he replaced them.

Edited by earlyriser, 07 March 2017 - 02:41 PM.

[aatt]

Notice how homeowners are swapping out their old twin floodlights for the new LEDs? They are horrible. I have seen them lighting up houses four lots away! They are all unshielded and blast light everywhere but where they are needed.

[earlyriser]

Here's a little story that might put things into perspective for people that don't normally consider preserving the night sky to be an important issue.

 

At its worst, haze at Grand Canyon National Park was so severe that people could not see across the 10-mile wide canyon. The Navajo Power Generating Station, about 80 miles north of the Grand Canyon, was thought to be the source of the pollution causing this haze. In 1985 researchers at Colorado State University injected methane-containing deuterium into the power plant's smoke emissions. Deuterium is not normally present in the air. When monitors determined the presence of deuterium in canyon air, researchers were able to demonstrate that the plant was responsible for much of the canyon haze. The result was a landmark settlement in which Navajo's owners agreed to a 90-percent cutback in sulfur dioxide emissions by 1999.

 

We have a situation now where the galaxy is being obscured from 90% of the US population by light pollution. How is this any less of a loss than not being able to see across the Grand Canyon? I'll bet it cost a lot more to cut those emissions by 90% than it would to cut light pollution by gross polluters like this guy.

[JohnMurphyRN]

I wonder if a calm and reasonable discussion would be better received than immediately going full-bore "hostile lawyer" on him....

 

He probably has no idea. Local law enforcement probably told him that more lighting would deter crime..

[csa/montana]

I wonder if a calm and reasonable discussion would be better received than immediately going full-bore "hostile lawyer" on him....

 

He probably has no idea. Local law enforcement probably told him that more lighting would deter crime..

+1 Has the OP contacted the service station owner to discuss this?

[earlyriser]

 

I wonder if a calm and reasonable discussion would be better received than immediately going full-bore "hostile lawyer" on him....

 

He probably has no idea. Local law enforcement probably told him that more lighting would deter crime..

+1 Has the OP contacted the service station owner to discuss this?

 

Nope. 

[earlyriser]

I wonder if a calm and reasonable discussion would be better received than immediately going full-bore "hostile lawyer" on him....

 

He probably has no idea. Local law enforcement probably told him that more lighting would deter crime..

Probably not, but no way he spends a dime more or eats the cost of installing these things absent a loss in business or a fine from the city. Even assuming a reasoned discussion would be possible, it would tip him off. I'd rather the building inspector show up without warning. No reason to give him time to plan for it. 

[earlyriser]

Okay, so the community council says Pete is a good guy, and I should talk to him about his lights. So, I guess I'll give that a shot. Not sure how we can work with those lights. He couldn't have made a worse choice. Maybe shields and some re-aiming. If he's willing to work with me, I'll withdraw the complaint. 

Edited by earlyriser, 07 March 2017 - 08:45 PM.

[earlyriser]

Post my pain, EYEPIECE UNDERCUTS!

But they're for your safety. 

[PXR-5]

My neighbor collects search lights!!!!

[wargrafix]

None of my eyepieces have undercuts, what about them causes annoyance?

 

By me there are too many streetlights, and the neighs to the right of me both in front and back heavily illuminated their properties. he one to the back was in customs and part of shady stuff, so he is constantly paranoid. I have a tree that blocks the front light but I not sure what to do about the back one.

[earlyriser]

I talked to the guy on Wednesday. Not unexpectedly, his concern is crime. Evidently, I wasn't the first person to complain about the lights. He's also had some complaints from the neighbors, with whom he appears to have a somewhat contentious relationship already.

 

My thought going in was if that I could get him to agree to let me put up some shields on one of the lights so he could see how they worked, I'd drop the complaint for now. However, I don't think he really understood my concerns was sky glow, not light trespass, and he seems pretty set on keeping the light levels the way they are for security.

 

I feel for the guy - nobody wants to feel like they are unsafe. But, I measured the light levels yesterday with a lux meter. I didn't try to figure an average because I didn't want to be wandering around the lot for an hour taking readings, but the peak levels are 200-300 lux (19-28 footcandles) depending on how many fixtures were mounted on the pole I was under. Walking along the sidewalks adjacent to the lot, I measured peak levels ranging from 100 to 160 lux. Across the street, the levels were 15-20 lux (1.4-1.9 footcandles).

 

The IES recommends a range of .75 to 3 footcandles for urban parking lots, and a range of 1.5. to 6 footcandles for exterior building lighting if security is an issue (which it appears to be). Even using the 6 footcandle number, the guy is at 4 to 5 times the recommended levels. His lights would be within the recommended levels for cars parked across the street. Given the intensity and lack of shielding, I think I need to let the complaint ride and see if the building inspector can motivate the guy to change the lights. Maybe the owner will let me help him if he gets a citation.

[rzep8]

After seeing these, I guess I have nothing to complain about - image looking south from my camp on Indian Lake, NY.

 

"Tis true, but the Adirondacks are cloud heaven most times (and dayam cold in the winter!!!)

[George N]

 

After seeing these, I guess I have nothing to complain about - image looking south from my camp on Indian Lake, NY.

 

"Tis true, but the Adirondacks are cloud heaven most times (and dayam cold in the winter!!!)

 

"Dark sky" = "few people" (except for North Korea and Cuba). There's generally a reason why there are few people in any given location. Being retired, I have plenty of time to wait for those clear nights.
 

BTW, right now "Light Pollution" is not my observing problem - at either of my NY homes.

No, it's belt buckle deep snow and wind chills below zero..... that's the reason I was not out observing the moon last night! I figured that in snow that deep I probably couldn't out-run the coyotes.  

 

[earlyriser]

 

 

After seeing these, I guess I have nothing to complain about - image looking south from my camp on Indian Lake, NY.

 

"Tis true, but the Adirondacks are cloud heaven most times (and dayam cold in the winter!!!)

 

"Dark sky" = "few people" (except for North Korea and Cuba). There's generally a reason why there are few people in any given location. Being retired, I have plenty of time to wait for those clear nights.
 

BTW, right now "Light Pollution" is not my observing problem - at either of my NY homes.

No, it's belt buckle deep snow and wind chills below zero..... that's the reason I was not out observing the moon last night! I figured that in snow that deep I probably couldn't out-run the coyotes.  

 

 

I hope it stays that way. I typically go up to Lake George to visit friends and ski each Christmas. When I was there this past December, I noticed a fair amount of unshielded (guessing 5000K) LED street lights had been installed along the main drag. These were on lamp posts installed on the sidewalks in addition to the high pressure sodium street lights hanging from the telephone poles. I guess someone thought they were pretty.

Edited by earlyriser, 16 March 2017 - 12:40 PM.