291 replies to this topic

[earlyriser]

If there was one type of light I could ban, it would be the wall pack.  Almost any light can be used obnoxiously if you try hard enough.  But the classic wall pack is obnoxious by design. It's the light pollution equivalent of a car without a muffler.  They are particularly popular with public storage facilities, cheap hotels (Motel 6, I'm looking at you), and dollar stores because they are cheap to put up and attention grabbing.  The adaption of LED lights to wall packs has only increased their obnoxiousness

 

The below picture was taken from behind the property at 4824 Ridge Ave., Cincinnati Ohio.  These lights are visible from across the valley, and yet cast shadows that would easily allow someone to stand near any one of the rear entrances to the building without being seen. 

 

Corner View Small.jpg

 

Oddly (and thankfully) the front of the building has no lights at all other than some signs.

 

Front View Small.jpg

Well, you can scratch this one.  It has been torn down. 

 

[Winston6079]

Extremely strict covid strategy, haven't any star party for 2 years, foreign fishing boats are causing horrible light pollution, rich population with foreign passports are running away, the astronomy community here is dying slowly.

[CChristakis]

Uggh!!   My little town has the worst timing.   The day before the Lunar Eclipse they decided to install some new LED street lights.   I struggled enough with the train yard lights and the existing street lights. 
However, I found it tolerable and not awful.    Now my southern sky on my front porch is not as nice.

BEFORE
 

    



AFTER w/NEW LED LIGHTS

 

    

 

[kevin6876]

^^That's insane to stargaze in front of streetlights like that.  Can't imagine how you do it?

 

Pretty awesome scope & EPs you have there though!

[CChristakis]

^^That's insane to stargaze in front of streetlights like that.  Can't imagine how you do it?

 

Pretty awesome scope & EPs you have there though!

It can be frustrating but I make the best of it.    With the old street lights it wasn't awful.    Most of my front porch viewing is planets and lunar. 

However, now with the new LED lights it will definitely make it less enjoyable.   I can use my back yard without any stray lights but I have to deal with obstructed views.

[frapzen]

Went to the country house to find that the neighbours cut down a lovely tree that was blocking 3(!!) ultra-bright, unshielded, ultra white (I swear these things can't be less than 5000k) streetlights.

The best part is that these streetlights are illuminating a dirt road that is the back road for accessing the cemetery. Do we really need these in a community of <1k people? Really?

Edited by frapzen, 16 November 2022 - 12:17 PM.

[John Fitzgerald]

Went to the country house to find that the neighbours cut down a lovely tree that was blocking 3(!!) ultra-bright, unshielded, ultra white (I swear these things can't be less than 5000k) streetlights.

The best part is that these streetlights are illuminating a dirt road that is the back road for accessing the cemetery. Do we really need these in a community of <1k people? Really?

In small towns like that, it's easier and less red tape, usually, to get things done.  I would talk to the powers in charge.

[frapzen]

In small towns like that, it's easier and less red tape, usually, to get things done.  I would talk to the powers in charge.

I wish it were that simple. These lights are far away from me, just direct line of sight and due to elevation I'm looking straight at the LEDs themselves. They are like three small but very bright point sources.

 

Let's just say the powers in charge are not very accommodating...

 

Oh well, back to the blackout curtains on poles that I had before the tree grew up.  

Edited by frapzen, 17 November 2022 - 03:16 AM.

[UnityLover]

My pain is that in front of my house, there seems to be 4 BRIGHT STREETLIGHTS AT A 45* ANGLE POINTED AT ME. AND THERE STILL PLENTY WHO ARE IN MY GENERAL DIRECTION

[dries1]

Neighbors son in law puts up a light in the back of the house, It is an LED with what appears to be a concave lens (wide field), now my backyard is lit up as well as is my deck. I called my neighbor about it. The son in law and I will discuss tomorrow.

Is it OK to have ones light spreading out and lighting up the neighbors yard. 

I am hopeful that they understand my concerns, we will see. 

[25585]

In the bleak midwinter, a neighbour lights his tennis court all night long, destroying a nice dark direction, hear my gloomy song.

[John Fitzgerald]

In the bleak midwinter, a neighbour lights his tennis court all night long, destroying a nice dark direction, hear my gloomy song.

If they are not playing, it's a waste of electricity.   There ought to be a law....

[wavefront]

I don't think we can ever get light pollution under control until an alter ego to the IDA appears which concentrates on ordinances and regulations. For years the IDA has been trying to teach people about light pollution. You can't teach people something they're not not interested in. Maybe we have to TEACH the IDA unless there's an organization pushing regulations and I'm just not aware of it.

The IDA suggests places you can go to where it's dark and they turn out to be state parks. You can't live in a state park. That's why you want a small observatory in your back yard right ?

Edited by wavefront, 18 December 2022 - 06:56 PM.

[PhotogTom]

Some thoughts on light pollution - from an astronomy newbie, but not a newbie at living (even though I still make the occasional rookie mistake).

 

LED versus HP Sodium. They're sold on "more light AND less cost to operate" - meaning you can cut your wattage substantially and have more light. That's a selling point they use.

 

Some of the parking lot lighting, the "spot" and area lighting are installed in a way that presents glare to drivers as well as pollutes the atmosphere with light. Having a flood light shine directly into your eyes when you drive by a store or lot at night is potentially a safety issue. While not quite as bad as mis-aimed oncoming headlights, it does present glare and if it's raining out, it is even worse. City politicians may not care a bit about people gazing at stars, but they do care about people driving off into the ditch because they couldn't see the edge of the road due to bright lights on a rainy night.

 

I consider any stray light as wasted light - that is, if it doesn't light just the area that is intended to be lit, then the excess light is just someone paying for lighting they don't need. Streetlights that light up the front of everyone's house are wasted light. Spots and floods that brightly shine into people's eyes when they drive are wasted light. Brightly-lit billboards that leave a bright glow on everything around them are wasted light.

 

I guess my angle here is that we have other considerations that can be used to push for less annoying light pollution. Driver safety being a primary consideration, as I kind of mentioned above.

 

Energy consumption could also be a political tool to deal with excess lighting - "Look at Joe's Hardware store - it's lit up bright as can be, but it's closed until 9 AM tomorrow". I understand having a low-level blanket of light for safety and security, but over-bright lighting is a waste of resources. With today's security cameras, you don't need brightly lit parking lots or storefronts. Low level lighting does the trick.

[John Fitzgerald]

The IDA is way too passive, imo.  If they were more like most common activist groups, they could probably get more done.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.  They could start agressively pursuing the negative health effects of light pollution,  for example.

[kevin6876]

Some thoughts on light pollution - from an astronomy newbie, but not a newbie at living (even though I still make the occasional rookie mistake).

 

LED versus HP Sodium. They're sold on "more light AND less cost to operate" - meaning you can cut your wattage substantially and have more light. That's a selling point they use.

 

Some of the parking lot lighting, the "spot" and area lighting are installed in a way that presents glare to drivers as well as pollutes the atmosphere with light. Having a flood light shine directly into your eyes when you drive by a store or lot at night is potentially a safety issue. While not quite as bad as mis-aimed oncoming headlights, it does present glare and if it's raining out, it is even worse. City politicians may not care a bit about people gazing at stars, but they do care about people driving off into the ditch because they couldn't see the edge of the road due to bright lights on a rainy night.

 

I consider any stray light as wasted light - that is, if it doesn't light just the area that is intended to be lit, then the excess light is just someone paying for lighting they don't need. Streetlights that light up the front of everyone's house are wasted light. Spots and floods that brightly shine into people's eyes when they drive are wasted light. Brightly-lit billboards that leave a bright glow on everything around them are wasted light.

 

I guess my angle here is that we have other considerations that can be used to push for less annoying light pollution. Driver safety being a primary consideration, as I kind of mentioned above.

 

Energy consumption could also be a political tool to deal with excess lighting - "Look at Joe's Hardware store - it's lit up bright as can be, but it's closed until 9 AM tomorrow". I understand having a low-level blanket of light for safety and security, but over-bright lighting is a waste of resources. With today's security cameras, you don't need brightly lit parking lots or storefronts. Low level lighting does the trick.

^^Best angle, totally agree to pursue saftey as the primary driver to curbing painful lighting.

[CrazyPanda]

Here's my new pain.

 

 

This is about a half magnitude worse than it's typically been in the winter. It's bad enough that I'm not even bothering to go out and observe

[monolithic]

It's bad enough that I'm not even bothering to go out and observe

Seriously?? I'd commit a crime to have regular access to 20.42 skies!

[wavefront]

Here's something I just discovered. If you missed it like I did I hope you'll find it interesting.

 

https://www.pbs.org/...cket-solutions/

Edited by wavefront, 21 January 2023 - 02:09 PM.

[earlyriser]

A five-and-dime up the street put in new lights a day or two ago.  These may be the most obnoxious I've encountered.  I'll get some more pictures and lux measurements when I get the chance. 

 

Edited by earlyriser, 01 February 2023 - 08:52 AM.

[UnityLover]

Neighbors son in law puts up a light in the back of the house, It is an LED with what appears to be a concave lens (wide field), now my backyard is lit up as well as is my deck. I called my neighbor about it. The son in law and I will discuss tomorrow.

Is it OK to have ones light spreading out and lighting up the neighbors yard. 

I am hopeful that they understand my concerns, we will see. 

Updates on that?

[PhotogTom]

A five-and-dime up the street put in new lights a day or two ago.  These may be the most obnoxious I've encountered.  I'll get some more pictures and lux measurements when I get the chance. 

...

Re: the Family General store - that's just plain ugly lighting. Too bright, and way too scattered across the area. If I lived next to that, I'd be raising all kinds of noise about it. 

 

And I bet they keep that parking lot brightly lit after closing hours too. 

[earlyriser]

I don't think we can ever get light pollution under control until an alter ego to the IDA appears which concentrates on ordinances and regulations. For years the IDA has been trying to teach people about light pollution. You can't teach people something they're not not interested in. Maybe we have to TEACH the IDA unless there's an organization pushing regulations and I'm just not aware of it.

The IDA suggests places you can go to where it's dark and they turn out to be state parks. You can't live in a state park. That's why you want a small observatory in your back yard right ?

There is kind of a related issue where new ordinances to reduce light pollution are passed, but they only apply to streetlights and other state or municipal property.  This happened in Pittsburgh, for example.  Problem is, based on a study done in Flagstaff, only about 25% of light pollution comes from streetlights.  The biggest emitters are commercial property owners to whom the ordinances don't apply or against whom applicable ordinances aren't enforced.  So, while I suppose it's better nothing, these types of regulations are not going to darken the sky much.   

[earlyriser]

Re: the Family General store - that's just plain ugly lighting. Too bright, and way too scattered across the area. If I lived next to that, I'd be raising all kinds of noise about it. 

 

And I bet they keep that parking lot brightly lit after closing hours too. 

I can confirm they are on all night. That picture was taken at 5 AM.  I could see properties across the street were illuminated and a blue glow above the store before I turned the corner and could see the lights themselves, so I knew they were bright.  I plan to take a light meter with me tomorrow and see what the lux levels are in the parking lot.  

Edited by earlyriser, 01 February 2023 - 01:52 PM.

[earlyriser]

As a follow-up to the earlier post, I have some better pictures and some lux measurements.

 

Here's a long view to provide an idea of how much brighter the offending store is than everything else in the area.  It's really quite shocking as you drive up the road.  Note the contrast with the LED wall packs mounted to the building in the background.  They pale by comparison. 

 

 

The lot itself is quite bright.  I measured 370 lux (34 foot candles) in this area of the lot, and the average level in front of the store was about 160 lux (15 foot candles). The Illuminating Engineering Society (IES) recommends 1.5 foot candles for open air urban parking lots, so these light levels are 10-20 times what the IES recommends. 

 

 

The highest reading I got was by this entryway - 1786 lux (166 foot candles).  This is an excessive level of light in almost any situation. The highest lighting recommendations on the chart I found on the Internet are 100 foot candles for fine assembly in a factory and 125 foot candles for an NBA gymnasium.  

 

 

Finally, here is a shot showing how the lights are illuminating the buildings across the street.  I measured 30 lux (2.75 foot candles) from the sidewalk on the other side of the road, which is still higher than what the IES recommends for urban parking lots.  You can see the shadow of the phone pole on the building across the street. 

 

 

I plan to report this to the city building code enforcement department.  I've had some success in the past with other offensive lights, so we'll see how it goes. 

Edited by earlyriser, 02 February 2023 - 11:53 AM.