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Why is Takahashi overly expensive?

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#26 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:31 AM

A view through a 60 -70mm f/15 achromat can provide some idea of what the view through a 130mm apo might be like.  I think many people have looked through such an achromat.  



#27 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:34 AM

Just wanted to know why a 8 inch Celestron SCT OTA is $999 but a 5 inch refractor OTA from Takahashi is $6,300?? Does this brand do something different that no one else does with their telescopes? I've never used one so I don't understand the hype.

 

Thanks.

A writer for one of the major mags expressed surprise that a larger SCT was beating a smaller apo.  I let my subscription lapse later that year.



#28 sink45ny

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:37 AM

One thing not mentioned so far is resale value. An Astro-Physics 140mm f/7.5 Starfire EDF can be sold today for more money than it cost 10 years ago.


Edited by sink45ny, 12 March 2017 - 12:41 PM.

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#29 viewer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:40 AM

What surprised me the most when joining was the love for refractors. Even more than the dob love. In the end the latter has aperture. You need to respect that, even if it doesn't fit other preferences you have.


Edited by viewer, 12 March 2017 - 09:47 AM.

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#30 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:51 AM

Once you get a superb optical quality scope you will not go back to average again.

True. Sometimes.  Except not always important.  I found a small reflector having what is probably horrible optical quality compared to most, but it has some potential even so. 



#31 n2068dd

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:59 AM

I am curious about the APO hype. I would love to do some side-by-side comparisons someday, but not for $6300. I've looked through every kind of telescope at this point, except for an APO. I must say, so far the only thing that has ever really moved the needle for me is sky conditions. The differences between telescopes all seem pretty subtle to me. Being generous, I suspect it would take a well-trained eye to tease out the differences between an APO and an "equivalent" scope. You may need to know exactly what to look for to see any difference.

 

However I am also aware of a phenomenon in the audiophile community, where people buy gold-plated audio cables for hundreds of dollars and swear that it sounds so much better and they're worth every penny. So I approach "premium" products with a grain of salt.

Hi,

Many of well trained observer know about what APO like. They , including me, do not have too much expectations on APO.

Small aperture, say 6 inch APO, is not the same of well build 12inch newtonian. and well build reflecter do have far more crisp images and resolution beyond human eye. At first glance, we can see the color aberration free on reflecters, despite any of APO shows color aberrations( except Takahashi TOA). I can say APO is good enough, but well build( within 1/32 lambda error and well polished mirror) F8 reflecter is far more better on planet.That's why planet observer do not use APO. APO is a hobby toy, I think.

 

P.S.

I dislike audio community. They all have some biased religion. I do have expensive tool ,like STUDER, JBL and so on,but using them only for listening tool, not subtle sound comparing tool.Music is the first, not only for the sound.

 

Regards


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#32 PlanetNamek

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:02 AM

Aperture is king, that much we all know. No matter how super-duper the optics on a 5 inch are, it's not gonna  beat an 8 in terms of light gathering and brightness of the image.



#33 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:11 AM

I am curious about the APO hype. I would love to do some side-by-side comparisons someday, but not for $6300. I've looked through every kind of telescope at this point, except for an APO. I must say, so far the only thing that has ever really moved the needle for me is sky conditions. The differences between telescopes all seem pretty subtle to me. Being generous, I suspect it would take a well-trained eye to tease out the differences between an APO and an "equivalent" scope. You may need to know exactly what to look for to see any difference.

 

However I am also aware of a phenomenon in the audiophile community, where people buy gold-plated audio cables for hundreds of dollars and swear that it sounds so much better and they're worth every penny. So I approach "premium" products with a grain of salt.

 

I think you would have little trouble seeing the differences.   In some ways they are subtle but mostly they are staring you in the face.  Now whether you would see the differences between a decent ED/apo like the Orion 120mm Eon and a similar aperture Takahashi refractor,  that's a different issue..  

 

A request:

 

Until you have looked through a good quality ED/apo,  it seems to me using the term "APO hype" is inappropriate. For the same reason,  any comparison to the audiophile community is uncalled for..  

 

I can tell you that very pragmatic observers like myself and "Uncle" Rod Mollise appreciate and enjoy the views of a good ED/apo refractory.  Just the other day,  Rod,  the stalwart of the SCT community and author of two books and numerous articles on the SCT commented that his 120 ED was the reason his 8 inch Celestron Edge was going unused. 

 

The thing about apochromats is that they just work..  They are at their best nearly all the time and they take advantage of the sky conditions in ways a larger but less efficient scope may not. Now I do not own a Takahashi,  I do have a TeleVue NP-101 which is arguable the best short focal length 4 inch apo for visual one can buy.. The Takahashi equivalent is the FSQ 106 which is more of an astrograph.   

 

No,  I am not going to suggest it goes deeper than my 22 inch Starsplitter..  But I will say that it provides as perfect a view as I have seen..  

 

To this guy,  telescopes are tools.   A fine tool is a pleasure to use.   You will not find a finer quality tool than an apochromat.  

Jon


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#34 n2068dd

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:23 AM

Aperture is king, that much we all know. No matter how super-duper the optics on a 5 inch are, it's not gonna  beat an 8 in terms of light gathering and brightness of the image.

although, real life is not so simple, as you know...that's why APO is so popular.



#35 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:24 AM

 

I am curious about the APO hype. I would love to do some side-by-side comparisons someday, but not for $6300. I've looked through every kind of telescope at this point, except for an APO. I must say, so far the only thing that has ever really moved the needle for me is sky conditions. The differences between telescopes all seem pretty subtle to me. Being generous, I suspect it would take a well-trained eye to tease out the differences between an APO and an "equivalent" scope. You may need to know exactly what to look for to see any difference.

 

However I am also aware of a phenomenon in the audiophile community, where people buy gold-plated audio cables for hundreds of dollars and swear that it sounds so much better and they're worth every penny. So I approach "premium" products with a grain of salt.

 

I think you would have little trouble seeing the differences.   In some ways they are subtle but mostly they are staring you in the face.  Now whether you would see the differences between a decent ED/apo like the Orion 120mm Eon and a similar aperture Takahashi refractor,  that's a different issue..  

 

A request:

 

Until you have looked through a good quality ED/apo,  it seems to me using the term "APO hype" is inappropriate. For the same reason,  any comparison to the audiophile community is uncalled for..  

 

I can tell you that very pragmatic observers like myself and "Uncle" Rod Mollise appreciate and enjoy the views of a good ED/apo refractory.  Just the other day,  Rod,  the stalwart of the SCT community and author of two books and numerous articles on the SCT commented that his 120 ED was the reason his 8 inch Celestron Edge was going unused. 

 

The thing about apochromats is that they just work..  They are at their best nearly all the time and they take advantage of the sky conditions in ways a larger but less efficient scope may not. Now I do not own a Takahashi,  I do have a TeleVue NP-101 which is arguable the best short focal length 4 inch apo for visual one can buy.. The Takahashi equivalent is the FSQ 106 which is more of an astrograph.   

 

No,  I am not going to suggest it goes deeper than my 22 inch Starsplitter..  But I will say that it provides as perfect a view as I have seen..  

 

To this guy,  telescopes are tools.   A fine tool is a pleasure to use.   You will not find a finer quality tool than an apochromat.  

Jon

 

An apo is a niche instrument.  Its functions can usually be covered by other telescopes that have other advantages.



#36 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:11 AM

An apo is a niche instrument.  Its functions can usually be covered by other telescopes that have other advantages.

 

I look at it the other way around.  An apo, inch for inch, is the most versatile, the most capable instrument one can buy.  Within the constraints of the aperture, it does everything just about as perfectly as it can be done. You can find other scopes of similar apertures that are nearly as competent at one particular aspect, one particular niche, but they do not have that wide range of capabilities that the apochromat does.

 

Jon


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#37 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:20 AM

 

An apo is a niche instrument.  Its functions can usually be covered by other telescopes that have other advantages.

 

I look at it the other way around.  An apo, inch for inch, is the most versatile, the most capable instrument one can buy.  Within the constraints of the aperture, it does everything just about as perfectly as it can be done. You can find other scopes of similar apertures that are nearly as competent at one particular aspect, one particular niche, but they do not have that wide range of capabilities that the apochromat does.

 

Jon

 

The larger reflector covers planetary and deep sky much better, small inexpensive reflectors or achromats can handle the wide-field well enough or even better in some cases.  Imaging is a mixed bag, where the apo has a relatively small niche.



#38 treadmarks

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:44 AM

 

I am curious about the APO hype. I would love to do some side-by-side comparisons someday, but not for $6300. I've looked through every kind of telescope at this point, except for an APO. I must say, so far the only thing that has ever really moved the needle for me is sky conditions. The differences between telescopes all seem pretty subtle to me. Being generous, I suspect it would take a well-trained eye to tease out the differences between an APO and an "equivalent" scope. You may need to know exactly what to look for to see any difference.

 

However I am also aware of a phenomenon in the audiophile community, where people buy gold-plated audio cables for hundreds of dollars and swear that it sounds so much better and they're worth every penny. So I approach "premium" products with a grain of salt.

 

I think you would have little trouble seeing the differences.   In some ways they are subtle but mostly they are staring you in the face.  Now whether you would see the differences between a decent ED/apo like the Orion 120mm Eon and a similar aperture Takahashi refractor,  that's a different issue..  

 

A request:

 

Until you have looked through a good quality ED/apo,  it seems to me using the term "APO hype" is inappropriate. For the same reason,  any comparison to the audiophile community is uncalled for..  

 

I can tell you that very pragmatic observers like myself and "Uncle" Rod Mollise appreciate and enjoy the views of a good ED/apo refractory.  Just the other day,  Rod,  the stalwart of the SCT community and author of two books and numerous articles on the SCT commented that his 120 ED was the reason his 8 inch Celestron Edge was going unused. 

 

The thing about apochromats is that they just work..  They are at their best nearly all the time and they take advantage of the sky conditions in ways a larger but less efficient scope may not. Now I do not own a Takahashi,  I do have a TeleVue NP-101 which is arguable the best short focal length 4 inch apo for visual one can buy.. The Takahashi equivalent is the FSQ 106 which is more of an astrograph.   

 

No,  I am not going to suggest it goes deeper than my 22 inch Starsplitter..  But I will say that it provides as perfect a view as I have seen..  

 

To this guy,  telescopes are tools.   A fine tool is a pleasure to use.   You will not find a finer quality tool than an apochromat.  

Jon

 

I don't think "hype" is necessarily a pejorative term. Sometimes things live up to the hype. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way, but I think I'm being pretty open-minded. The jury is still out. It's just that I've noticed this pattern in hobbyist communities (and even professional communities too) so I've developed a healthy sense of skepticism. I think it's saved me a lot of money.

 

As for your experiences and Rod's, you are both "master astronomers"... You've already done more observing than I ever will. For someone so dedicated, ultra-high-end equipment makes sense. With that level of knowledge and experience, it's a good bet you could detect the differences. But for someone like me who never gets to use his telescopes due to the endless gray, I'm not so sure I would. I believe skill is a factor in getting the most out of a telescope, so I'm not sure the average person can duplicate your results.



#39 viewer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:02 PM

Can it have to do something with the perceived craftsmanship behind refractors? The polished lenses, 'a natural and understandable way' for the light to go through, 'back to basics', Galileo used one. They even look impressive. Binoculars are double refractors. All these factors may make you push it. Maybe the natural upper limit for a refractor could be somewhere around 3" ? The upper for normal binoculars is around 2", as I perceive it. Higher up it's natural to search for other solutions. Catadioptrics maybe. Before you enter the Newtonian land at around, say, 7"


Edited by viewer, 12 March 2017 - 12:33 PM.

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#40 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:18 PM

Can it have to do something with the perceived craftsmanship behind refractors? The polished lenses, "a natural and understandable way" for the light to go through, Galileo used one. Binoculars are double refractors. All these factors may make people push it. Maybe the natural upper limit for a refractor could be somewhere around 3" ? The upper for normal binoculars is around 2", as I perceive it. Higher up it's natural to search for other solutions. Catadioptrics maybe.

I like that idea, especially about the binocular.  The 7x and 10x binos give a great wide field of view.  Using a 15x70 makes me want to put it away and drag out the old RFT, where I can crank up the power and actually see something.

 

A five-inch telescope is just a little bigger than my beginner scope.   Back then I was shooting for a 6-, 8- or larger and not for thousands of dollars either.

 

Maybe hype is a matter of perception.



#41 Ken Sturrock

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:30 PM

It's always fun to see not only the hype about apochromatics but the even greater anti-apo hype spent trying to squash the apo hype.
 

Maybe hype is a matter of perception.


Nailed it.


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#42 viewer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:44 PM

http://imageshack.co.../825/DPD032.jpg


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#43 outofsight

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:46 PM

Takahashi telescopes aren't overly expensive, they are overly well made. There is no perfect telescope, but there might be some close to perfect telescopes within their respective types. Guess which category Takahashi, AP, TEC, etc., fit in. I may not need to squeeze the last photon out of the last square mm of aperture, but some people do, and I can appreciate the idea and the effort.

 

It would be a dull world if all we ever considered was cost, an Apo is good for what an Apo is good for, a Newt is good for what a Newt is good for. 

 

"Overly expensive," in this "game," is exceptionally subjective. Enjoy what you got.

 

Different strokes for different folks, different tools for different "fools."


Edited by outofsight, 12 March 2017 - 12:58 PM.

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#44 Stephen Kennedy

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 01:37 PM

n2068dd, on 12 Mar 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

 

Jon Isaacs, on 12 Mar 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

 

QuoteEach of them was more expensive than Takahashi. Nikon, Goto and Pentax was far more expensive than Takahashi.

 

But other than Pentax who made a limited number of apochromats and none I know of that were comparable to the "modern" triplets,  did any of these manufacturers venture into the ED/apo market? 

 

Jon

 

Goto optic made 80mm ED and fluorite triplet with long tube for sure. Each of those telescope was very expensive than Takahashi. Most of amateur could not buy it including me. I've heard their optic was excellent than Takahashi but little selling.Goto fluorite F12.5 triplet was sold 3? they say.Last apo was mx2 ED12.5cm.This AD was in next page of Takahashi FC-50. Maybe,mx2 ED12.5cm was expensive than Takahashi FCT-150 or near. It was compared and reviewed with Pentax ED(later replaced SD) 150mm long tube whitch was best selling larger APO.I saw several at amateur observatory in my town and very crisp images than ED100-HF or ED F4 . At that time, We saw their ( Pentax,GOTO ) AD every monthly astronomy magazine in several years.

http://www.ricoh-ima...f/telescope.pdf

Nikon made ED100mm F12 and ED65mm F12.  Later add ED80mm F6 quadruplet for amateurs. Nikon ED100 was sold so many with very high reputation.Recently, I can see often in auction and used market.

http://nikonfan.coco...04/05/65mma.jpg

http://nikonfan.coco...01/03/10cma.jpg

http://nikonfan.coco...11/30/80mma.jpg

ED150 and 200 for professional.ED was option on this line.

http://nikonfan.coco...2/20cm15cma.jpg

Unitron made 125mm fluorite doublet much expensive than Takahashi FC-125 JP.

 you can see Takahashi is not expensive rather cheap comparing in these telescopes both price and looking.These telescopes was not exported, maybe most of foreign person outside Japan don't know.

 

I was stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo from 1980 to 1983 and was the head of the U.S. Consulate in Fukuoka from 1986 to 1989 and remember the 1980s as the golden age of Japanese telescope manufacturers.  I purchased in 1988 a Pentax MS-5 German Equatorial Mount and a Mikage 210 mm F /7.7 Newtonian reflector OTA as pictured here.

 

IMG_1168 (3).JPG

 

To this day it is the only telescope that I use and the only changes I have made to it are to have the mirror recoated and replaced the stock focuser with a new Feather Touch.  These were exquisite telescopes that were built to last for decades.  Takahashi was a sub-premium brand in the Japanese market in those days.  It was not considered to be as good as Nikon, Pentax, Goto, Mikage or Mitaka but was rated higher than Vixen, Astro and Mizar.  

 

It saddens me that the only Japanese companies that still appear to be in the business of making telescopes for the amateur market are Takahashi and Vixen.  They are good but do not represent the best that ever existed in Japan.


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#45 caveman_astronomer

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:03 PM

It could be that Newtonians don't really need any hype, whereas telescopes costing much more per inch of aperture are perceived to need some degree of price justification, which then sometimes gets out of control.

 

 



#46 jrbarnett

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

It could be that Newtonians don't really need any hype, whereas telescopes costing much more per inch of aperture are perceived to need some degree of price justification, which then sometimes gets out of control.

Nah, Newtonians appeal to those with compensatory needs ("Yeah, but *my Dob* is 10-inches).  A totally different marketing ploy to snob-appeal.  Those buying large premium Dobs must suffer multiple neuroses.  :grin:

 

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#47 overnight

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:15 PM

It could be that Newtonians don't really need any hype, whereas telescopes costing much more per inch of aperture are perceived to need some degree of price justification, which then sometimes gets out of control.

You are absolutely right.

Newtonians give the most bang for the buck as the expression goes. There isn't much hype for "parabolic mirrors" or for fancy coatings. High end Newt mirrors like Lightholder mirrors are barely known. Refractors on the other hand can get a whole lot better if you put APO coatings and add another lens to make a triplet, etc. There is a lot of companies striving to do this (Skywatcher, Explore Scientific, AstroPhysics, Takahashi).


Edited by overnight, 12 March 2017 - 02:15 PM.


#48 overnight

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:16 PM

 

It could be that Newtonians don't really need any hype, whereas telescopes costing much more per inch of aperture are perceived to need some degree of price justification, which then sometimes gets out of control.

Nah, Newtonians appeal to those with compensatory needs ("Yeah, but *my Dob* is 10-inches).  A totally different marketing ploy to snob-appeal.  Those buying large premium Dobs must suffer multiple neuroses.  grin.gif

 

- Jim

 

That just goes into "My telescope is awesome because ----aperture-------"  lol.gif



#49 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:18 PM

 

 

I am curious about the APO hype. I would love to do some side-by-side comparisons someday, but not for $6300. I've looked through every kind of telescope at this point, except for an APO. I must say, so far the only thing that has ever really moved the needle for me is sky conditions. The differences between telescopes all seem pretty subtle to me. Being generous, I suspect it would take a well-trained eye to tease out the differences between an APO and an "equivalent" scope. You may need to know exactly what to look for to see any difference.

 

However I am also aware of a phenomenon in the audiophile community, where people buy gold-plated audio cables for hundreds of dollars and swear that it sounds so much better and they're worth every penny. So I approach "premium" products with a grain of salt.

 

I think you would have little trouble seeing the differences.   In some ways they are subtle but mostly they are staring you in the face.  Now whether you would see the differences between a decent ED/apo like the Orion 120mm Eon and a similar aperture Takahashi refractor,  that's a different issue..  

 

A request:

 

Until you have looked through a good quality ED/apo,  it seems to me using the term "APO hype" is inappropriate. For the same reason,  any comparison to the audiophile community is uncalled for..  

 

I can tell you that very pragmatic observers like myself and "Uncle" Rod Mollise appreciate and enjoy the views of a good ED/apo refractory.  Just the other day,  Rod,  the stalwart of the SCT community and author of two books and numerous articles on the SCT commented that his 120 ED was the reason his 8 inch Celestron Edge was going unused. 

 

The thing about apochromats is that they just work..  They are at their best nearly all the time and they take advantage of the sky conditions in ways a larger but less efficient scope may not. Now I do not own a Takahashi,  I do have a TeleVue NP-101 which is arguable the best short focal length 4 inch apo for visual one can buy.. The Takahashi equivalent is the FSQ 106 which is more of an astrograph.   

 

No,  I am not going to suggest it goes deeper than my 22 inch Starsplitter..  But I will say that it provides as perfect a view as I have seen..  

 

To this guy,  telescopes are tools.   A fine tool is a pleasure to use.   You will not find a finer quality tool than an apochromat.  

Jon

 

I don't think "hype" is necessarily a pejorative term. Sometimes things live up to the hype. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way, but I think I'm being pretty open-minded. The jury is still out. It's just that I've noticed this pattern in hobbyist communities (and even professional communities too) so I've developed a healthy sense of skepticism. I think it's saved me a lot of money.

 

As for your experiences and Rod's, you are both "master astronomers"... You've already done more observing than I ever will. For someone so dedicated, ultra-high-end equipment makes sense. With that level of knowledge and experience, it's a good bet you could detect the differences. But for someone like me who never gets to use his telescopes due to the endless gray, I'm not so sure I would. I believe skill is a factor in getting the most out of a telescope, so I'm not sure the average person can duplicate your results.

 

 

I will merely say this:

 

It is the quality of the view that sells the apochromat and results in the buzz one hears.  

 

Such telescopes are expensive.  If one can move beyond the cost of the telescope and just consider it in absolute terms,  then the virtues of the apochromat are quite apparent. 

 

As far as skill,  there is no doubt that the skill of the observer is most important and getting the most out of modest equipment is a virtue I appreciate in others and strive for as an individual.  In no way is a high end apo necessary for the enjoyment or appreciation of the heavens or the night sky.  But that is not what this tread is about. 

 

I see that you have a Celestron Omni 102 XLT AZ.   It's a 102 mm F/6.5 achromat on an alt-az mount and I am quite sure you have enjoyed some memorable views with it,  I know I have with similar Scopes,  there's a lot of value and capability there. 

 

But I am quite certain if you were to spend 5 minutes with a scope like the 4 inch F/5.4 Televue,  you would immediately see the differences.   One look at Jupiter,  the moon,  a double star,  you would see the difference immediately.  And too,  the mechanical perfection would be most apparent.. 

 

Now I am not encouraging you or anyone else to purchase such a scope.  Rather this discussion is about why Takahashi's and other expensive refractors are so costly, it's worth a look if you ever get a chance..  I think you'd appreciate the views and appreciate the virtues of both an affordable achromat and an expensive apo..  I know I do. 

 

Jon

 

P. S. 

 

All telescopes are good.  The reasons I have the telescopes I have is because of the pleasure they provide. I spend a lot of time at the eyepiece..  A large aperture Dob or a nice ED/apo,  they're about looking at the night sky..  Bragging rights,  I'll leave that to someone else.. 


  • Dave Mitsky, payner, CounterWeight and 5 others like this

#50 viewer

viewer

    Viking 1

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:25 PM

I'm very far from a Dobson man my

 

 

 

It could be that Newtonians don't really need any hype, whereas telescopes costing much more per inch of aperture are perceived to need some degree of price justification, which then sometimes gets out of control.

Nah, Newtonians appeal to those with compensatory needs ("Yeah, but *my Dob* is 10-inches).  A totally different marketing ploy to snob-appeal.  Those buying large premium Dobs must suffer multiple neuroses.  grin.gif

 

- Jim

 

That just goes into "My telescope is awesome because ----aperture-------"  lol.gif

 

I'm very far from a dobson guy myself, but somehow you just have to respect those who genuinely are, and who are taking the pain for fulfilling their dream:

 

https://www.cloudyni...icle/?p=7754868


Edited by viewer, 12 March 2017 - 02:33 PM.



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