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Why is Takahashi overly expensive?

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#151 Cpk133

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

 

Maybe the proper thread title should have been "Why is Takahashi SO expensive?"... and while I have never even been in the same room as one, those who have could probably give a definitive answer to the question properly phrased...

 

My 2 pennies, and worth about as much...

 

CB

I would modify it, to why are there so many whiners who would never buys Taks complaining about their price. lol.gif

No one is ever going to get one by saving Corn Flake packet tops. If folks what one well they put on their big person pants and save for one. If they don't want to well turbine impressions don't buy Taks. Same as with an Aston Martin or Maserati. Luxury has its price.

 

This reminds me of judge Elihu Smails:

 

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg


Edited by Cpk133, 19 March 2017 - 12:02 PM.

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#152 Feidb

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:41 PM

To me, it's a question of what do you really want out of a scope and how much are you willing to pay to get it.

 

Tak has their reasons for charging so much. Whether you agree with those reasons or not, is up to you and your wallet. No matter what fans are going to say, it all depends on what YOU want from a scope.

 

Personally, I'd NEVER pay that kind of money for what to me, is never enough payoff to warrant the price.

 

That's just me. I don't hold it against fans that would pay that much. I know a few.

 

What does bother me is people that try to convince others that they'll never be satisfied if they DON'T spend that kind of money to get the best of the best of the best.

 

I see it all the time.

 

There's also something that a Tak can't compete with.

 

Aperture.

 

I don't care what the fans say about the quality and all. There's the matter of physics.

 

Sure, maybe the quality can stretch so far, but when it comes down to it, a four-inch scope is NEVER going to see as faint as a 16-inch. It may very well split doubles better or see planetary detail better. If that's what you're going for, maybe you should spend twice as much for a Tak than you would for a 16-inch to get that. If you're into imaging, maybe a Tak is the best choice.

 

It all depends on what you want and how much you want to stretch your budget.

 

I'm not and never have been willing to go that far. I've looked, compared and said, "No way."

 

Before you get too worked up over this, if you haven't already, given the number of posts on this thread, try to find a few star party events, if that's even realistic in your area, and another thing...if it's even realistic that someone in one of those groups can even afford a Tak, try it out and see if it overwhelms you and makes you want to toss your 25-inch monster in the garbage and grab the nearest 3-4-inch Tak.

 

I'll bet it won't.

 

I'm just sayin'.


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#153 viewer

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:33 PM

Think I'll just imagine my Mak is a Tak. So much more satisfying.



#154 noisejammer

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:41 PM

...There's also something that a Tak can't compete with.

 

Aperture.

 

I don't care what the fans say about the quality and all. There's the matter of physics.

 

Sure, maybe the quality can stretch so far, but when it comes down to it, a four-inch scope is NEVER going to see as faint as a 16-inch.....

...and this is absolutely true. Cotts 12.5" Teeter runs rings around my TOA150. On the other hand, very few 16" scopes can deliver 2 degrees field to a 1.25" eyepiece with perfect clarity.

 

On reflection, this thread should not be about why high end refractors are expensive ... that's obvious - they are difficult to make. The real question is "Why do people buy them?" In spite of owning some wonderful instruments, I honestly can't explain that one. Except that I really enjoy using them.


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#155 Phil Cowell

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:53 PM

To me, it's a question of what do you really want out of a scope and how much are you willing to pay to get it.

 

Tak has their reasons for charging so much. Whether you agree with those reasons or not, is up to you and your wallet. No matter what fans are going to say, it all depends on what YOU want from a scope.

 

Personally, I'd NEVER pay that kind of money for what to me, is never enough payoff to warrant the price.

 

That's just me. I don't hold it against fans that would pay that much. I know a few.

 

What does bother me is people that try to convince others that they'll never be satisfied if they DON'T spend that kind of money to get the best of the best of the best.

 

I see it all the time.

 

There's also something that a Tak can't compete with.

 

Aperture.

 

I don't care what the fans say about the quality and all. There's the matter of physics.

 

Sure, maybe the quality can stretch so far, but when it comes down to it, a four-inch scope is NEVER going to see as faint as a 16-inch. It may very well split doubles better or see planetary detail better. If that's what you're going for, maybe you should spend twice as much for a Tak than you would for a 16-inch to get that. If you're into imaging, maybe a Tak is the best choice.

 

It all depends on what you want and how much you want to stretch your budget.

 

I'm not and never have been willing to go that far. I've looked, compared and said, "No way."

 

Before you get too worked up over this, if you haven't already, given the number of posts on this thread, try to find a few star party events, if that's even realistic in your area, and another thing...if it's even realistic that someone in one of those groups can even afford a Tak, try it out and see if it overwhelms you and makes you want to toss your 25-inch monster in the garbage and grab the nearest 3-4-inch Tak.

 

I'll bet it won't.

 

I'm just sayin'.

That's why I have an AP1600 mounted 16"RC in my backyard RoR.

Never said a Tak should be an only scope lol.gif

Just saying.

Big dobs are nice but my driveway is sloping and made from gravel. Setting up a big dob in NY in winter ouch, 20 years ago might have been fun but now, not what I want to do. I like my Tak FSQ but it's not really for visual. The Edge 14 scratches that itch for me.

So you'd not enjoy visual with my FSQ probably any more than I would enjoy trying to image through your dob.


Edited by Phil Cowell, 19 March 2017 - 02:02 PM.

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#156 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:32 PM

For tiny planets you want long focal length, a compound reflector like an SCT is the way to go.

 

I've used hundreds of different telescopes of all types over the years and, as I've said numerous times here and on other astronomy fora, my very best planetary views have been through large aperture truss-tube Dobs with premium mirrors and large aperture classical Cassegrains when the seeing has been excellent.

 

There is no denying that inch-for-inch apochromatic refractors deliver the best views.  An apochromat like the Tele Vue NP-101 provides the capability of very wide true fields of view, as well as well as high-power-per-inch-of-aperture views.

 

https://www.cloudyni...vue-np101-r1691

 

In addition, apochromats are hardly niche instruments when it comes to imaging.

 

http://www.astronomy...om.au/astro.htm

http://www.astro-phy...s/140edf/140edf (Gallery)

 

http://www.acaoh.org.../Rick_Burke.htm

 

http://www.astropix....TROP/SCOPES.HTM

As you can see, I admit to being prejudiced in favor of refractors. They are excellent for astrophotography. The lens is permanently mounted and usually does not require collimation. Refractors cool down quickly compared to Newtonians and other type designs. The tube is closed so that thermal currents are never a problem and dust is kept to a minimum in the optics and in the camera.

 

Most experienced astrophotographers find that a good 4 or 5 inch apochromatic refractor is an excellent choice for deep-sky astrophotography because of its versatility. Such a scope can keep you busy for a long time and last a lifetime.

 

Dave Mitsky


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#157 Phil Cowell

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:15 PM

 

For tiny planets you want long focal length, a compound reflector like an SCT is the way to go.

 

I've used hundreds of different telescopes of all types over the years and, as I've said numerous times here and on other astronomy fora, my very best planetary views have been through large aperture truss-tube Dobs with premium mirrors and large aperture classical Cassegrains when the seeing has been excellent.

 

There is no denying that inch-for-inch apochromatic refractors deliver the best views.  An apochromat like the Tele Vue NP-101 provides the capability of very wide true fields of view, as well as well as high-power-per-inch-of-aperture views.

 

https://www.cloudyni...vue-np101-r1691

 

In addition, apochromats are hardly niche instruments when it comes to imaging.

 

http://www.astronomy...om.au/astro.htm

http://www.astro-phy...s/140edf/140edf

 

http://www.acaoh.org.../Rick_Burke.htm

 

http://www.astropix....TROP/SCOPES.HTM

As you can see, I admit to being prejudiced in favor of refractors. They are excellent for astrophotography. The lens is permanently mounted and usually does not require collimation. Refractors cool down quickly compared to Newtonians and other type designs. The tube is closed so that thermal currents are never a problem and dust is kept to a minimum in the optics and in the camera.

 

Most experienced astrophotographers find that a good 4 or 5 inch apochromatic refractor is an excellent choice for deep-sky astrophotography because of its versatility. Such a scope can keep you busy for a long time and last a lifetime.

 

Dave Mitsky

 

Dave if you get the chance have a look through a 6"F15 like the Skylight with vintage glass and Brandon's. Different from a big dob or SCT but very sweet.



#158 Klitwo

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:20 PM

If the 40-inch Yerkes refractor was a 40-inch Takahashi APO instead of a Alvin Clark air-spaced achromat....we probably wouldn't be having this discussion today....See the following links.

 

Klitwo

 

http://www.wi101.org...ds/Yerkes01.jpg

 

http://atomictoaster...rkes-refractor/


Edited by Klitwo, 19 March 2017 - 03:25 PM.


#159 viewer

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:38 PM

Would buy one.



#160 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:52 PM

 

 

For tiny planets you want long focal length, a compound reflector like an SCT is the way to go.

 

I've used hundreds of different telescopes of all types over the years and, as I've said numerous times here and on other astronomy fora, my very best planetary views have been through large aperture truss-tube Dobs with premium mirrors and large aperture classical Cassegrains when the seeing has been excellent.

 

There is no denying that inch-for-inch apochromatic refractors deliver the best views.  An apochromat like the Tele Vue NP-101 provides the capability of very wide true fields of view, as well as well as high-power-per-inch-of-aperture views.

 

https://www.cloudyni...vue-np101-r1691

 

In addition, apochromats are hardly niche instruments when it comes to imaging.

 

http://www.astronomy...om.au/astro.htm

http://www.astro-phy...s/140edf/140edf (Gallery)

 

http://www.acaoh.org.../Rick_Burke.htm

 

http://www.astropix....TROP/SCOPES.HTM

As you can see, I admit to being prejudiced in favor of refractors. They are excellent for astrophotography. The lens is permanently mounted and usually does not require collimation. Refractors cool down quickly compared to Newtonians and other type designs. The tube is closed so that thermal currents are never a problem and dust is kept to a minimum in the optics and in the camera.

 

Most experienced astrophotographers find that a good 4 or 5 inch apochromatic refractor is an excellent choice for deep-sky astrophotography because of its versatility. Such a scope can keep you busy for a long time and last a lifetime.

 

Dave Mitsky

 

Dave if you get the chance have a look through a 6"F15 like the Skylight with vintage glass and Brandon's. Different from a big dob or SCT but very sweet.

 

I have looked through a number of long-focus 6-inch achromats and a number of much larger ones, up to 24 inches in aperture. (There are two 11-inch D & G Optical achromats in operation in my area.) Using one criterion, a 6-inch achromat should have a focal ratio of f/18 to be color free but an f/15 will certainly do a good job.  

 

I've also seen some of the planets through some 6-inch and larger apochromats, including one of the few 206mm f/7.7 Astro-Physics EDFs ever made.

 

A friend of mine owns an 8-inch f/9 TMB APM achromat that he takes to dark sites and sets up by himself but he is a dedicated DSO observer and rarely observes the planets.

 

Dave Mitsky


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#161 Klitwo

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:03 PM

 

 

 

For tiny planets you want long focal length, a compound reflector like an SCT is the way to go.

 

I've used hundreds of different telescopes of all types over the years and, as I've said numerous times here and on other astronomy fora, my very best planetary views have been through large aperture truss-tube Dobs with premium mirrors and large aperture classical Cassegrains when the seeing has been excellent.

 

There is no denying that inch-for-inch apochromatic refractors deliver the best views.  An apochromat like the Tele Vue NP-101 provides the capability of very wide true fields of view, as well as well as high-power-per-inch-of-aperture views.

 

https://www.cloudyni...vue-np101-r1691

 

In addition, apochromats are hardly niche instruments when it comes to imaging.

 

http://www.astronomy...om.au/astro.htm

http://www.astro-phy...s/140edf/140edf (Gallery)

 

http://www.acaoh.org.../Rick_Burke.htm

 

http://www.astropix....TROP/SCOPES.HTM

As you can see, I admit to being prejudiced in favor of refractors. They are excellent for astrophotography. The lens is permanently mounted and usually does not require collimation. Refractors cool down quickly compared to Newtonians and other type designs. The tube is closed so that thermal currents are never a problem and dust is kept to a minimum in the optics and in the camera.

 

Most experienced astrophotographers find that a good 4 or 5 inch apochromatic refractor is an excellent choice for deep-sky astrophotography because of its versatility. Such a scope can keep you busy for a long time and last a lifetime.

 

Dave Mitsky

 

Dave if you get the chance have a look through a 6"F15 like the Skylight with vintage glass and Brandon's. Different from a big dob or SCT but very sweet.

 

I have looked through a number of long-focus 6-inch achromats and a number of much larger ones, up to 24 inches in aperture. (There are two 11-inch D & G Optical achromats in operation in my area.) Using one criterion, a 6-inch achromat should have a focal ratio of f/18 to be color free but an f/15 will certainly do a good job.

I've also seen some of the planets through some 6-inch and larger apochromats, including one of the few 206mm f/7.7 Astro-Physics Starfires ever made.

 

Dave Mitsky

 

Takahashi has got nothing on this guy... He certainly made one big dual APO 10-inch bino photon cannon....Big time $$$ too.   See the following link.

 

Klitwo

 

http://i.picasion.co...8c38db21b3b.gif


Edited by Klitwo, 19 March 2017 - 04:25 PM.

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#162 Starman1

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:22 PM

I just wish I'd never sold my Unitron 4" f/15 (CA ratio 3.75).

It was the model that had the eyepiece turret and weight-driven clock drive on a German EQ mount.

It was long and shimmied in a wind (no Hargreaves strut), but it had superb images.

I can't tell you it was better than the 4" refractors I've had in the last 10 years (one 4 element, one 3 element),

but I remember it yielding superb lunar and planetary images.



#163 Phil Cowell

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:37 PM

I just wish I'd never sold my Unitron 4" f/15 (CA ratio 3.75).

It was the model that had the eyepiece turret and weight-driven clock drive on a German EQ mount.

It was long and shimmied in a wind (no Hargreaves strut), but it had superb images.

I can't tell you it was better than the 4" refractors I've had in the last 10 years (one 4 element, one 3 element),

but I remember it yielding superb lunar and planetary images.

Don, Thinking the Baader orthos in the turret should be fun in the 6" F15.



#164 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:01 PM

Takahashi has got nothing on this guy... He certainly made one big dual APO 10-inch bino photon cannon....Big time $$$ too.   See the following link.

 

I'm pretty sure that there was a 10" binocular refractor on a massive tripod at Stellafane one year but I can't find any mention of it so far.  Unfortunately, I never got to look through it at night due to the weather.

 

There was a 6" f/15 binocular refractor on display at NEAF last year.

 

Dave Mitsky

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#165 Starman1

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:03 PM

That's a 2286mm focal length.

An 8mm eyepiece is a very high magnification for a 6".

A 6mm would yield 381x.  Possible in superb seeing.

I would expect it to shine with about a 10-12mm, though.

 

Large exit pupils are impossible, but that scope would be an excellent candidate for a 2" 55mm Plössl.



#166 Phil Cowell

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:44 PM

That's a 2286mm focal length.

An 8mm eyepiece is a very high magnification for a 6".

A 6mm would yield 381x.  Possible in superb seeing.

I would expect it to shine with about a 10-12mm, though.

 

Large exit pupils are impossible, but that scope would be an excellent candidate for a 2" 55mm Plössl.

The 8mm Brandon is as far as I've pushed.



#167 Klitwo

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:46 PM

Takahashi has got nothing on this guy... He certainly made one big dual APO 10-inch bino photon cannon....Big time $$$ too.   See the following link.

 
I'm pretty sure that there was a 10" binocular refractor on a massive tripod at Stellafane one year but I can't find any mention of it so far.  Unfortunately, I never got to look through it at night due to the weather.
 
There was a 6" f/15 binocular refractor on display at NEAF last year.
 
Dave Mitsky

Even a 10-inch APO bino is not going to impress this guy. Here's a 12-inch f/7.5 APO bino built by APM. Somebody from China with some Big $$$$ and some very deep pockets has already bought this big 12-inch APO bino beauty...See the following link.
 
Klitwo
 
 
http://www.apm-teles... 12 inch-11.jpg
 
http://www.apm-teles... 12 inch-18.jpg
 
http://forum.astrono...topics/980700/1

Edited by Klitwo, 19 March 2017 - 10:47 PM.

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#168 Klitwo

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:04 PM

If Takahashi ever offered a FSQ-130ED bino...the majority of us would have to either mortgage our house or get a bank loan inorder to buy one...and then move into the "dog house" when your wife or girl friend found out how much you paid for it. > http://www.dumpaday....e-dog-house.jpg

P.S. Better yet...just think how much money you could save if you decided to build a FSQ-130ED bino yourself. Currently priced at $13,150 each...what a deal.

Klitwo

http://www.takahashi...pes/refractors/

Edited by Klitwo, 20 March 2017 - 02:43 AM.


#169 zawijava

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:30 PM

Just wanted to know why a 8 inch Celestron SCT OTA is $999 but a 5 inch refractor OTA from Takahashi is $6,300?? Does this brand do something different that no one else does with their telescopes? I've never used one so I don't understand the hype.

 

Thanks.

Takahashi, TEC, Astro-Physics and a few other Makers, their scopes.....all likely to hold their original value for decades, probably even appreciate in value! A 8" SCT, as well as most mass produced scopes, will likely begin to depreciate the moment someone purchases it. 


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#170 Phil Cowell

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:34 AM

If Takahashi ever offered a FSQ-130ED bino...the majority of us would have to either mortgage our house or get a bank loan inorder to buy one...and then move into the "dog house" when your wife or girl friend found out how much you paid for it. > http://www.dumpaday....e-dog-house.jpg

P.S. Better yet...just think how much money you could save if you decided to build a FSQ-130ED bino yourself. Currently priced at $13,150 each...what a deal.

Klitwo

http://www.takahashi...pes/refractors/

I doubt we would ever see an FSQ130ED bino due to it being primarily an astrograph. Now a  TOA150 .......... oh yeah.



#171 spencerj

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:42 AM

I have been an active amateur astronomer for about 17 years.  That makes me seem super experienced to some and just a newbie to others.  I have bought and sold more than a few telescopes over the years and now, I have what I have.  My most used scope is a Takahashi TSA 102.  I bought it used.  It has fantastic optics.  The view through the scope makes me remember why I love the night sky.  

 

The scope has only 4" of aperture.  It is not capable of breaking the laws of physics.  It doesn't show fainter galaxies than a 36" Newtonian or open up worm holes to other universes.  It just puts up fantastic views of whatever I point it at with very little fuss.  That is it.  These days, I have a 4 year old and a 4 month old at home.  6-hour weekday observing sessions at a dark sky site with a large Newtonian are not an option.  Instead, it is more the unplanned 1 hour sessions whenever I get the chance.  

 

This Saturday night, I got out for about an hour and a half in my backyard.  I watched the shadow of Io move onto the face of Jupiter.  I saw it as a sharp, perfectly-defined, partial circle as the shadow transit started.  The edge of Jupiter's disk was sharply defined against the perfect black backdrop of the sky.  There was zero light scatter.  Detail inside and on the edges of the equatorial bands sharpened up and faded away with the seeing.  I just sat there breathing in the clean night air, mesmerized by the show for over an hour.  I would have stayed out longer, but the real world calls.  By the time Io was completely on the face of Jupiter and I could see a perfect separation of the shadow and the limb, it was 1:30 AM.  My 4 year old gets up at 6.  I packed up the Tak as easily as I set it up and went to bed with those beautiful images of Jupiter still fresh in my mind.  

 

You don't need a Takahashi Apo to enjoy the night sky.  But just because someone owns a Takahashi Apo doesn't mean they don't enjoy the night sky.  We all choose what we choose for whatever personal reasons we have.  Sometimes we would be better to just leave it at that.


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#172 Klitwo

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:08 PM

If Takahashi ever offered a FSQ-130ED bino...the majority of us would have to either mortgage our house or get a bank loan inorder to buy one...and then move into the "dog house" when your wife or girl friend found out how much you paid for it. > http://www.dumpaday....e-dog-house.jpg

P.S. Better yet...just think how much money you could save if you decided to build a FSQ-130ED bino yourself. Currently priced at $13,150 each...what a deal.

Klitwo

http://www.takahashi...pes/refractors/

I doubt we would ever see an FSQ130ED bino due to it being primarily an astrograph. Now a  TOA150 .......... oh yeah.


Sure...A TOA-150ED Bino...why not. At $11,870 ea x 2...that's a steal. It's your money...go for it!

klitwo

Edited by Klitwo, 20 March 2017 - 01:51 PM.


#173 Phil Cowell

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:05 PM

There are some nice images of a TOA130 binoscope if you run a search.



#174 Klitwo

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:33 PM

There are some nice images of a TOA130 binoscope if you run a search.


Yea...I already did. Check out the EMS diagonal IPD system on this TAO-130ED Bino. We're talking about some serious $$$ here.

http://ems-bino.com/...2/epson13ed.jpg

http://ems-bino.com/2016/12/

A bino pair of FSQ-130ED's would make a great gift to give to yourself...but once your wife or girl friend found out the price you paid for it...then you better tell "Fido" to make room for you in the dog house...because that's where you'll likely end up sleeping for the next few days...if you're real lucky that is.

http://www.dumpaday....e-dog-house.jpg

Klitwo

Edited by Klitwo, 20 March 2017 - 09:39 PM.


#175 Starman1

Starman1

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:37 PM

The 3-diagonal binoscope back end works on refractors, but I can tell you from experience it does NOT work on a Maksutov or SCT.

The extra back-focus length seriously vignettes the field of view.


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