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Baader Maxbright replacement forthcoming?

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#76 denis0007dl

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 03:17 AM

ClickLocks, eyepiece holders which makes many troubles to me, I never like them.

 

Thats why I like most Baader Helicall system.

 

Baader ClickLock vs Baader Helical (thats what mine experience says, and experience with some of ClickLock reported users):

 

1. eyepieces often cant get inside ClickLocks, because 2 rollers on holder/holders stucks inside, which is NEVER case for Helicals
2. ClickLocks are not self centring as they claimed before (dont know how they claim now), and by changing IPD in them, you change collimation a bit
3. collimation can NOT be finely adjusted with ClickLocks, while CAN be done with Helicals easily
4. you CAN NOT adjust diopters once eyepieces are locked in ClickLocks, while you CAN DO IT EASILY with Helicals
5. ClickLocks can never hold eyepieces locked strong in place like Helicals can do
6. ClickLocks are much more priced (double price of Helicals)
7. ClickLocks takes more precious light path vs Helicals
8. ClickLocks are much heavier vs Helicals

9. sometimes eyepieces get stuck inside ClickLocks, which is never case with Helicals

10. in some cases, when locking and/or unclocking eyepieces installed in ClickLocks, due force needed, observer can shift whole telescope and/or binoviewer setup, which is last thing you want, what is never case with Helicals

11. in some cases, eyepieces can fall down from ClickLocks even eyepieces are locked max strong (VERY dangerous), which is never case in well locked Helicals even using just 1 screw for lock

 

So, there are absolute ZERO reasons I would take ClickLocks over Helicals.

 

☺️


Edited by denis0007dl, 10 August 2019 - 03:34 AM.

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#77 denis0007dl

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 06:47 AM

ClickLocks of any type are so bad for me, that I replaced original 2" ClickLock from my APM 152 APO focusser, and install Baader with 3 locking screws like showed in picture (yes, it had to be machined as well).

 

Here I save huge 1.2cm of precious light path, and I can finally lock any of my heavy binoviewers setups, superbly better secured, like never before.

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_20190730_233010-1209x1612.jpg

Edited by denis0007dl, 10 August 2019 - 06:48 AM.

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#78 Spacefreak1974

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 12:43 PM

I won’t debate you on Clicklock as eyepiece holders on binoviewers because you know tons more than me, but there is no other visual back design that I trust more on my SCT holding a 2” diagonal and 3lb eyepiece than a Baader Clicklock adapter. I’ve tried multiple compression ring style units and nothing comes close to the clamping power and ease of use as the Clicklock adapter

 

Jon


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#79 Astrojensen

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 02:26 PM

I have nothing but good experiences with my Baader Clicklocks. That said, I did go with the ultrashort 1.25" Baader eyepiece holder on the Zeiss binos I bought from Denis, because I wanted to minimize the back focus requirement.

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#80 Kunama

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 03:57 PM

I have been using the ClickLocks on all my scopes as well as my Zeiss Binoviewer and have had no problems with them at all.


Edited by Kunama, 10 August 2019 - 03:59 PM.


#81 rob.0919

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 06:16 AM

The way i look at it is......if its been made by Baader, its been made well.

I think lighpath is the only negative aspect to them.



#82 noisejammer

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 09:11 PM

In the link, the new Maxbright  MK II has clicklocks that operate in opposite directions. Is that the same as the MK V?

Yes, the clicklocks work in opposite directions on the Mk V. It is very intuitive. Hands down to lock, hands up to open.

 

Like Matt & Thomas, I've been using clicklocks for years.  I have them on all my scopes. They're the only reliable solution (I've found) to eyepiece undercuts.


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#83 EverlastingSky

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 01:37 PM

Cool, the Baader MKII, nice they were finally able to pull it off. Seems their main concern for this version was to get larger prism size for wide field eyepieces. Not an improvement to those of us who use binoviewers for Moon and Planets 95% of the time.

 

I tend to agree with Denis on his critiques list also.

 

3 highest quality fused quartz Newtonian secondary mirrors of small 0.75 inch size + beam splitter and someone could make an all mirror bino system... That would be really something exotic and unbeatable waytogo.gif 



#84 Eddgie

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 01:52 PM

The way i look at it is......if its been made by Baader, its been made well.

I think lighpath is the only negative aspect to them.

The light path of a binoviewer is largely a function of the size of the prisms.  If you want a bigger clear aperture (which is one of the major complaints against the budget priced units) the prism has to be larger, and the larger the prism, the longer the light path.

 

Also related is the sophistication of the self centering diopter. The diopters like the ones used on Denkmeier, Earthwin, and Mark V provide consistent eyepiece placement and this usually comes at the cost of a few extra millimeters of tower height. 

 

This is not really an avoidable situation, so while it might indeed be considered as a negative in a broader sense, it can't be considered a negative in comparison to many competitive designs.

 

For example, the Bino Vue has a larger prism, but it also has one of the longest light paths of any binoviewer.  The B27 has a 127mm light path (not including power switch) but it also has an very convenient owner-collimation capability. 

 

So, a negative is a negative, but it is should not be considered a negative in the pro-con way because to be fair, you have to compare it to binoviewers with similar sized apertures, and this BV is competing more with a unit like the Denk II or Earthwin, which both have a similar size apertures and both have (pointing back to the start of my note) similar light path lengths. 



#85 Eddgie

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 02:06 PM

I too have had excellent result with Clicklock.   

These do not center in the same fashion as the collets used in the Denk and Earthwin.  In these designs, a wide plastic sleeve is compressed into position around the eyepiece that centers it in the barrel.

 

In the Mark V, there are small rectangular pads that protrude from the barrel wall and these push the eyepiece into position.  The difference is that the Mark V design pushes both of the eyepieces up and in (as I recall) so that they always come to rest in the same position relative to the barrel.    I suspect the optical center line lines up with this position. 

 

The other thing I liked about the design is that it was much quicker to change eyepieces.  Sometimes some extra turning is needed to release an eyepiece in the Denk/Earthwin kind of collet based system, while in the Mark V, it only took half a turn or so to completely release any eyepiece. 

 

Anyway, point is, I never had a problem with collimation in my Mk V, and if I were to want another binoviewer where I would be changing eyepieces a lot, I would want it to have the same kind of mechanism as the Mark V. 

 

(My top recommendation is still a power switch system because with these, much observing can be done without having to change eyepieces.  If though, someone wants to work at native focal length and since the power switch type systems almost never allow low power without the use of the OCS, the Mark V was my go to BV. Nothing makes changing eyepieces as easy as the Mark V type eyepiece clamp.)



#86 Eddgie

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 02:23 PM

A careful study of the picture on the Baader web site shows what I meant (though the design appears very slightly different or my memory is a bit incorrect, perhaps confusing the little centering pads with the Clicklock visual back).

 

If you zoom in on the pictures that show looking down the eyepiece holder, you can clearly see that there are two small spherical protrusions. One is located about 2 O'clock, and one is about 10 O'clock.   There is not one at 6 O'clock. 

 

What this means is that like the Mark V, when the mechanism is engaged, these pads push in on the eyepiece from 10 and 2 and will push them evenly into position so that the 6 O'Clock side of the barrel always registers in exactly the same place.  

 

So, it is a different approach, but one that most people seem to feel works well enough that no miscollimation is seen in use. 

 

Please excuse my crude artwork..  Just shown to exactly explain the difference in concept between the collet type of self centering and the Mark V/Maxbright II approach.  Different, but this ensures that all eyepieces always lock up in the same way. 

 

Also, the gap is highly exaggerated just to be sure to show the way the two moving positioning pads will ensure that the eyepieces both come to exactly the same point in the aperture every time.   

 

Clicklock.jpg

 

I think it is a pretty brilliant design. 


Edited by Eddgie, 12 August 2019 - 02:28 PM.

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#87 noisejammer

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 06:56 PM

Re Denis' suggestion that you can make binoviewers using mirrors. The short version is You can but they won't be as good and they will probably will cost more.

 

First off, you need a beam splitter. This can be done using a partly silvered mirror or - as is more common - back-to-back 90deg prisms. The problem is of your light paths is going straight while the other is bent through 90. Apologies for the crude drawing but time is few...

Binoviewer Schematic

 

The light path at the end of the beam splitter is the same for each side.

 

So next you need to turn the left beam through 90 degrees - easy enough, that's another mirror, then you need another two mirrors to bring the light out where you want it. I get that you need either three mirrors or three prisms Each of these has to be very flat - about 1/10 wave or so.

 

To make and mount a 1/10 wave mirror, you need a substrate that's at least 10 mm thick. Then you need to mount it in a way that holds it steady under normal use. This is harder than it sounds. My experience is that it's much harder to mount mirrors than prisms because prisms are a lot thicker.

 

Then you need to think about coatings - each mirror needs a dielectric coating with 99% reflectivity - If you exploit a prism's total internal reflection, you get this for free. It turns out that high end binoviewers have coated prisms - their internal losses are negligible. Besides, the inside of a prism stays clean... a mirror's always exposed.

 

Finally, there's the optical thickness of the binoviewer.

 

This is where the prism really wins. When light enters glass, it stops converging as rapidly which means the binoviewer doesn't eat up as much of your back focus. I estimate you score about 40mm by using prisms. Now you can get around this by exploiting bigger mirrors (see for example Harry Siebert's Black Knight series) but then the price gets out of control.



#88 Eddgie

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:26 PM

Yes, the prism is better for a great number of reasons, though there is one place where the mirrors can be a better solution.

 

When the aperture gets large (2") the weight of the prisms becomes substantial, and when you add in the weight of two 2" eyepieces, this combined weight would present problems for even very robust focusers. 

 

For very large binoviewers then, mirrors can be a better solution.

 

https://www.sieberto...inoviewers.html



#89 denis0007dl

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 01:04 AM

Yes, the prism is better for a great number of reasons, though there is one place where the mirrors can be a better solution.

 

When the aperture gets large (2") the weight of the prisms becomes substantial, and when you add in the weight of two 2" eyepieces, this combined weight would present problems for even very robust focusers. 

 

For very large binoviewers then, mirrors can be a better solution.

 

https://www.sieberto...inoviewers.html

Binoviewers with high quality mirrors are best solution, becasue they do not suffer from spherochromatism (color disturbances/ chromatic aberration), which is naturally presented in all prism/standard binoviewers.

 

Also, binoviewers with high quality mirrors do not add unwanted spherical aberration (over-correction), which is induced by all prism/standard binoviewers.

 

Not only these advantages, but mirrors binoviewers produce cleanest possible image, and of course, and all that depends of mirrors AND beamsplitter quality made!

 

Plus, binoviewers with mirrors are much lighter.

 

Generally, only advantage of all prisms (standard) binoviewers (if we comparing best quality all prisms, and best quality mirrors binoviewers, in terms of picture overall quality), is that they have bit shorter light path.


Edited by denis0007dl, 13 August 2019 - 05:30 AM.

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#90 EverlastingSky

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:32 PM

It is curious that Zeiss and Leica both make microscope binocular heads utilizing 3 mirrors plus the beam splitter. Why did they do that then? hmm.gif Carl Zeiss sharpest binoviewer *NEWEST GENERATION*  both sold in a day lol.gif Seems some folks understand the advantages then! 


Edited by EverlastingSky, 13 August 2019 - 07:35 PM.


#91 denis0007dl

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 01:09 AM

Ok, lets back on topic:
Baader Maxbright replacement forthcoming.
;)

#92 Saturnalia

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:50 PM

Ok, lets back on topic:
Baader Maxbright replacement forthcoming.
wink.gif

When...? grin.gif



#93 denis0007dl

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:59 PM

I beleive Baader isnt still sure yet 100a% when, but we hope it will be soon.

#94 ewave

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:45 PM

Here you go, more news just in:

 

https://www.baader-p...-with-case.html


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#95 ewave

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:47 PM

27mm prism with 26mm clear aperture telescope side and 25.5mm clear aperture eyepiece side @ 425 Euros


Edited by ewave, 15 August 2019 - 05:48 PM.


#96 Spacefreak1974

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:18 PM

So the main sticking point of the new Maxbright is that it is not user collimatible and has cemented prisms. It does however have the largest clear aperture and if its of good quality will be the biggest bang for the buck out there. Looking at the price difference even if one was to buy a couple glasspath compensators for $100 Each you'd still be all in for $700 + Eyepieces which is almost half the price of Mark V or new Denks

 

In my review and paralysis by analysis of binoviewers and picking them up and trying some out I found that the best case Denkmeier units with a power switch I could get into would be around $1200-$1300. Earthwin would never answer my emails or voicemails, so I was never sure if they were still in business, so seeing that after sale support might be problematic. The used older Denkmeiers I was told by the company they would not support them or service them and instead of offering alternative service shop contacts they tried selling me a new one for 6X the cost of what I was finding used Denks for online. This is the only company i've encountered in the Astro industry that does not acknowledge their previous models. I get it that they might not support them any longer due to cost to support, but they should have partners lined up or simple gentleman's agreements that they'd share a contact with customers inquiring. It rubbed me the wrong way. I don't openly criticize others business practices, but this helped me to cross them off the short list knowing that in 10yrs if they made a new model and I needed a part I could not get potential support

 

I almost purchased one from Denis and I may still yet, but after seeing $1200-$1600 for new ones Mark V and Denkmeier as well as Televue pass by my eyes for an astronomical accessory I began thinking I would get an introductory pair around $200 and see if I enjoy 2 eye observing at all. I ended up spending around $250 to get a TS Standard Binoviewer and I like it well enough. The eyepiece holder on one side was a little loose, but I was told that was normal lol.gif . I understand that you get what you pay for, and its not been an issue so far. If I get another binoviewer (Maxbright or one from supercharged Zeiss unit from Denis) I may donate the TS unit to our club for use with our new Lunt LS100 Double Stack. I'm going to use it through winter on Orion and some other objects, but i've found like like single eye viewing better for globulars and Jupiter and Saturn. The moon is better binoviewed for sure as is daytime observing.

 

Jon




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