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Zeiss Telementor

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#51 Bomber Bob

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:15 AM

At present my little 60mm Mayflower fills the role the Telementor played.  I think it every bit as good optically as that Telementor was and don't miss it at all!

 

I don't have your Mayflower Registered.  What's the Model # and the Maker?

 

My Hiyoshi-made Monolux 4380 was a fine example of the Japanese 60mm F15 EQ.  Every object seemed a bit brighter & better, and I made a set of remarkable Mars images with it (in my Gallery).  I think the Tasco 7TE-5 is one of the prettiest scopes ever imported, and it stands out in a very crowded field of billions & billions.



#52 starman876

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:58 AM

The japanese learned their art of lens making from Zeiss.  So all those Japanese lenses are Zeiss imatations.


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#53 Stew44

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:28 PM

I like the looks of Telementors. They have a cool, heavy-handed industrial look, and the tripod is made out of the same wood that our old school desks used to be made of. They are unique! I liked my T2 but I like my T1 better. I can see parallels with them and Tinsley scopes in that industrial, minimalist, no nonsense look.

Do you have any Tinsley refractors?  I was always looking for one of their 5" Maks but Dave Trott has me thinking about one of their refractors. 

 

To me, the Telementor looks like a pipe.  A telescope deserves a proper dew shield to provide a balance to the scope, offsetting the focuser. grin.gif   Of course it doesn't really have a focuser as it's all internal but the knob on the T2 IIRC, so maybe there's balance after all.  I very much like the generous setting circles.  Does the T1 have a helical focuser?



#54 Sasa

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:57 PM

 

 

 

 

 

I think you guys have been looking a japanese refractors too long.  I will gladly take any Zeiss telescope over a Tasco, Royal, Towa and so forth.   The Zeiss tripod beats jus about any japanese tripod, the way the ota is constructed is way better than any tasco, The mount is sure more stable and the optics in most are without peer.  

Better than your Unitrons?

 

Maybe

 

I wouldn't trade a complete 128 for Teletormentorlol.gif

 

 

The problem with the Telementor is the obsession of collecting the Zeiss accessories that go along with the scope.  The unattainable 8mm orthoscopic eyepiece, the mythical finder scope, monocentric unicorns.

 

I believe that is the problem with Zeiss in general.  You used to be able to go to APM or Baader and find lists of old Zeiss stuff.  I bought a lot of things from those lists.  Zeiss eyepieces showed up frequently on Amart and looked old or weird and you could get them for a song.  I only owned one Telementor and never the mount, but know three Zeiss collectors, and when I got tired of some of those Zeiss accessories I set my price with two of them and they didn't even flinch, just forked over the cash.  My Telementor moved on and I am Zeiss-less.  At present my little 60mm Mayflower fills the role the Telementor played.  I think it every bit as good optically as that Telementor was and don't miss it at all!

 

Luckily, in my country Zeiss and Zeiss accessories are still not that rare and expensive (although with the internet, it is changing). I got my AS80/1200 in home-build OTA with Zeiss turret and O-12.5 and O-10 eyepieces for a price, people in US are paying for a single CZJ ortho eyepiece.  The lens of my Telementor came as a gift from a friend. To get the Telementor OTA and mount was more difficult (and expensive, still I got reasonable price). People were usually smuggling only optics from Jena, not whole telescopes. These were more difficult to hide.


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#55 deSitter

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:00 PM

The japanese learned their art of lens making from Zeiss.  So all those Japanese lenses are Zeiss imatations.

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

 

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

 

-drl


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#56 Ben Bajorek

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:34 PM

Here's the T2 that rekindle my interest in astronomy.  I really like this era of industrial design, it's like the BMW 2002 of telescopes.  It's little cemented objective lens gives wonderful views.    

 

IMG_5633_zpsugo9cfcq.jpg

 

3D printing files of the Telementor Telescope Control Knob Disk Inserts:  

 

https://www.thingive...739/apps/print/

 

IMG_5683_zpsmcqc9nc4.jpg

 

 


Edited by Ben Bajorek, 11 June 2017 - 04:41 PM.

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#57 starman876

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:40 PM

Yes  the Zeiss cemented objective is a fine objective.  The previous versions of the Zeiss 60mm lenses which were air spaced have no equal.   About the only japanese manyfacturer of lenses that comes close is Nikon.  And then there was a point that Nikon was king.  The Nippon lenses I have are fantastic.   


Edited by starman876, 11 June 2017 - 04:47 PM.

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#58 Stew44

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:41 PM

Had that or an earlier four eyepiece turret for my Telementor.  It was black.  Got that from Ludes.  Also had the large Herchel wedge by Zeiss.  Made sun viewing really nice.



#59 starman876

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:51 PM

Had that or an earlier four eyepiece turret for my Telementor.  It was black.  Got that from Ludes.  Also had the large Herchel wedge by Zeiss.  Made sun viewing really nice.

The Zeiss accessories available are amazing. It is a shame when Zeiss stopped making scopes people like us all these toys took a gigantic leap in price.    I know before I would let a scope go I would test it on the bench first.  Each one of the Zeiss objectives I have tested have been perfect, Cannot say that for the Japanese objectives. They have been hit or miss.

The earlier versions of the 80mm and 63mm zeiss lenses I have are perfect.  


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#60 rolo

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 05:35 PM

At the end of the day, it's just another 60mm achromat...



#61 Terra Nova

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 05:53 PM

NO!


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#62 Piggyback

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 02:14 AM

The more you use it, the more you appreciate it. Telementor is an industry icon. Built like a rock, working like a Swiss watch.


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#63 AllanDystrup

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 10:21 AM

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

-drl 

 

     I've had CZJ Zeiss Telementors with AS63 as well as C63 objectives. The AS is a Steinheil air spaced semi-apo with aspheric correction, while the C is a traditional Fraunhofer cemented achromat.

 

     The polish of the AS lenses (and thus the sharpness / contrast) has been a notch above the C lens, but the secondary spectrum of the AS was only marginally better that the C-lens (The Zeiss specification for the secondary spectrum of these objectives are: S2N=1.8 for the AS KzFN2/BK7, and S2N=2.4 for the C BK7/F2).

 

    I've also had several 60mm Unitrons, but apart from being diffraction limited Fraunhofer air spaced designs, I have not found any quantitative information on their design (glass types and secondary spectrum); -- maybe someone here has the data for Unitrons (or other high end Japanese 60mm scopes) ? The colour aberration I have observed in the Japanese Unitron telescopes has been significantly and consistently larger, than what I have observed in the several 63mm Zeiss scopes, I have tested.

 

Allan


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#64 starman876

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 10:45 AM

 

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

-drl 

 

     I've had CZJ Zeiss Telementors with AS63 as well as C63 objectives. The AS is a Steinheil air spaced semi-apo with aspheric correction, while the C is a traditional Fraunhofer cemented achromat.

 

     The polish of the AS lenses (and thus the sharpness / contrast) has been a notch above the C lens, but the secondary spectrum of the AS was only marginally better that the C-lens (The Zeiss specification for the secondary spectrum of these objectives are: S2N=1.8 for the AS KzFN2/BK7, and S2N=2.4 for the C BK7/F2).

 

    I've also had several 60mm Unitrons, but apart from being diffraction limited Fraunhofer air spaced designs, I have not found any quantitative information on their design (glass types and secondary spectrum); -- maybe someone here has the data for Unitrons (or other high end Japanese 60mm scopes) ? The colour aberration I have observed in the Japanese Unitron telescopes has been significantly and consistently larger, than what I have observed in the several 63mm Zeiss scopes, I have tested.

 

Allan

 

I do agree with you.  I have to test a bunch of 60mm unitrons and Zeiss lenses on the bench.  Last night I was testing a Zeiss 100mm lens and it looked awful.  Not a straight line to be found.  When I took the lens out of the cell I almost had to hammer it out.  I have not clue how it got pinched that tight.  I did find some glue residue which could have come from clear tape.  I used some masking tape to hold the lenses together and the next DPAC test showed nice straight lines like one would expect from a Zeiss lens.  I did test a bunch of Unitron 4" lenses and was sadly let down by a few.  However, I can honestly say that the older Unitron 4" lenses are very good compared to the new slanted letter lenses.  


Edited by starman876, 12 June 2017 - 10:46 AM.

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#65 Stew44

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 10:49 AM

 

 

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

-drl 

 

     I've had CZJ Zeiss Telementors with AS63 as well as C63 objectives. The AS is a Steinheil air spaced semi-apo with aspheric correction, while the C is a traditional Fraunhofer cemented achromat.

 

     The polish of the AS lenses (and thus the sharpness / contrast) has been a notch above the C lens, but the secondary spectrum of the AS was only marginally better that the C-lens (The Zeiss specification for the secondary spectrum of these objectives are: S2N=1.8 for the AS KzFN2/BK7, and S2N=2.4 for the C BK7/F2).

 

    I've also had several 60mm Unitrons, but apart from being diffraction limited Fraunhofer air spaced designs, I have not found any quantitative information on their design (glass types and secondary spectrum); -- maybe someone here has the data for Unitrons (or other high end Japanese 60mm scopes) ? The colour aberration I have observed in the Japanese Unitron telescopes has been significantly and consistently larger, than what I have observed in the several 63mm Zeiss scopes, I have tested.

 

Allan

 

I do agree with you.  I have to test a bunch of 60mm unitrons and Zeiss lenses on the bench.  Last night I was testing a Zeiss 100mm lens and it looked awful.  Not a straight line to be found.  When I took the lens out of the cell I almost had to hammer it out.  I have not clue how it got pinched that tight.  I did find some glue residue which could have come from clear tape.  I used some masking tape to hold the lenses together and the next DPAC test showed nice straight lines like one would expect from a Zeiss lens.  I did test a bunch of Unitron 4" lenses and was sadly let down by a few.  However, I can honestly say that the older Unitron 4" lenses are very good compared to the new slanted letter lenses.  

 

Johann, how did the '57 4" lens test? 



#66 Terra Nova

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 11:18 AM

 

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

-drl 

 

     I've had CZJ Zeiss Telementors with AS63 as well as C63 objectives. The AS is a Steinheil air spaced semi-apo with aspheric correction, while the C is a traditional Fraunhofer cemented achromat.

 

     The polish of the AS lenses (and thus the sharpness / contrast) has been a notch above the C lens, but the secondary spectrum of the AS was only marginally better that the C-lens (The Zeiss specification for the secondary spectrum of these objectives are: S2N=1.8 for the AS KzFN2/BK7, and S2N=2.4 for the C BK7/F2).

 

    I've also had several 60mm Unitrons, but apart from being diffraction limited Fraunhofer air spaced designs, I have not found any quantitative information on their design (glass types and secondary spectrum); -- maybe someone here has the data for Unitrons (or other high end Japanese 60mm scopes) ? The colour aberration I have observed in the Japanese Unitron telescopes has been significantly and consistently larger, than what I have observed in the several 63mm Zeiss scopes, I have tested.

 

Allan

 

I agree! I have done side by side observations and star tests. While my Unitrons are very good (the 1955 62mm besting the 60mm 1968 and both Unitrons beat the 1962 RAO Monolux #4380), the Telementors were decidedly better. By the way, my very early T1 bested the later T2 but it was very, very close).


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#67 deSitter

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 11:38 AM

 

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

-drl 

 

     I've had CZJ Zeiss Telementors with AS63 as well as C63 objectives. The AS is a Steinheil air spaced semi-apo with aspheric correction, while the C is a traditional Fraunhofer cemented achromat.

 

     The polish of the AS lenses (and thus the sharpness / contrast) has been a notch above the C lens, but the secondary spectrum of the AS was only marginally better that the C-lens (The Zeiss specification for the secondary spectrum of these objectives are: S2N=1.8 for the AS KzFN2/BK7, and S2N=2.4 for the C BK7/F2).

 

    I've also had several 60mm Unitrons, but apart from being diffraction limited Fraunhofer air spaced designs, I have not found any quantitative information on their design (glass types and secondary spectrum); -- maybe someone here has the data for Unitrons (or other high end Japanese 60mm scopes) ? The colour aberration I have observed in the Japanese Unitron telescopes has been significantly and consistently larger, than what I have observed in the several 63mm Zeiss scopes, I have tested.

 

Allan

 

Sacek says Steinheils and Fraunhofers are about the same performance, and the same glass, only with the flint in front and stronger internal curves. IIRC the point of the Steinheil was to avoid ghosting.

 

-drl



#68 AllanDystrup

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

     Sacek says Steinheils and Fraunhofers are about the same performance, and the same glass, only with the flint in front and stronger internal curves. IIRC the point of the Steinheil was to avoid ghosting.

 

-drl

 

     Don't know about avoiding ghosts, but the glass types chosen was definitely a factor in determinating the choice of Steinheil or Fraunhofer design. --  As the Vixen and early Takahashi fluorites, which were of Steinheil design to protect the softer crystal element

 

"my precious...." axe.gif

Allan


Edited by AllanDystrup, 12 June 2017 - 12:42 PM.

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#69 starman876

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 12:38 PM

 

 

 

All my good Japanese objectives (7 I think) are air-spaced. The Telementor was an explicitly inexpensive "Schulfernrohr" - school telescope - with a cemented objective. Now, it may perform like a champ, but "real" Fraunhofers do not have cemented objectives. No reason it can't work, but also not done, and for good reasons.

Yes, the Japanese used the German model for optics and cameras. They did a danged good job of equaling and finally bettering their mentors.

-drl 

 

     I've had CZJ Zeiss Telementors with AS63 as well as C63 objectives. The AS is a Steinheil air spaced semi-apo with aspheric correction, while the C is a traditional Fraunhofer cemented achromat.

 

     The polish of the AS lenses (and thus the sharpness / contrast) has been a notch above the C lens, but the secondary spectrum of the AS was only marginally better that the C-lens (The Zeiss specification for the secondary spectrum of these objectives are: S2N=1.8 for the AS KzFN2/BK7, and S2N=2.4 for the C BK7/F2).

 

    I've also had several 60mm Unitrons, but apart from being diffraction limited Fraunhofer air spaced designs, I have not found any quantitative information on their design (glass types and secondary spectrum); -- maybe someone here has the data for Unitrons (or other high end Japanese 60mm scopes) ? The colour aberration I have observed in the Japanese Unitron telescopes has been significantly and consistently larger, than what I have observed in the several 63mm Zeiss scopes, I have tested.

 

Allan

 

I do agree with you.  I have to test a bunch of 60mm unitrons and Zeiss lenses on the bench.  Last night I was testing a Zeiss 100mm lens and it looked awful.  Not a straight line to be found.  When I took the lens out of the cell I almost had to hammer it out.  I have not clue how it got pinched that tight.  I did find some glue residue which could have come from clear tape.  I used some masking tape to hold the lenses together and the next DPAC test showed nice straight lines like one would expect from a Zeiss lens.  I did test a bunch of Unitron 4" lenses and was sadly let down by a few.  However, I can honestly say that the older Unitron 4" lenses are very good compared to the new slanted letter lenses.  

 

Johann, how did the '57 4" lens test? 

 

Excellent lens.



#70 Stew44

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 12:42 PM

I always liked that 4" image.  Thanks for testing it!grin.gif



#71 starman876

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 01:47 PM

I always liked that 4" image.  Thanks for testing it!grin.gif

I have found all the early lenses to be very good.  Wish we knew who made them



#72 starman876

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 01:48 PM

I see JW's Zeiss went for $760.  I knew it would get there with a little helpwink.gif


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#73 Terra Nova

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 01:56 PM

 

I like the looks of Telementors. They have a cool, heavy-handed industrial look, and the tripod is made out of the same wood that our old school desks used to be made of. They are unique! I liked my T2 but I like my T1 better. I can see parallels with them and Tinsley scopes in that industrial, minimalist, no nonsense look.

Do you have any Tinsley refractors?  I was always looking for one of their 5" Maks but Dave Trott has me thinking about one of their refractors. 

 

To me, the Telementor looks like a pipe.  A telescope deserves a proper dew shield to provide a balance to the scope, offsetting the focuser. grin.gif   Of course it doesn't really have a focuser as it's all internal but the knob on the T2 IIRC, so maybe there's balance after all.  I very much like the generous setting circles.  Does the T1 have a helical focuser?

 

The T1 indeed has an excellent helical focuser. One of the smoothest if not the smoothest focuser I have ever used. The tube is quite thick and heavy and is thus quite durable; the objective is nestled back fairly deeply within the tube so the forward portion acts as a dew shield. The objective cell itself is a heavy bronze, and all of this lends itself to added protection to the precious objective (remember, this instrument was intended for school use). Not only is the glass protected from breakage but it is much less likely to be knocked out of collimation than with the more traditional (Japanese) design where the exterior of the cell/countercell is exposed and serves to mate dew shield and tube. The Telementor's design is very well thought out given that it was intended for school use. It's utilitarian/no frills appearance harkens back to its Marxist origins in the former DDR. The tripod is heavy and well built, in the design of a mini-surveyors tripod. It contains a built-in bullseye bubble-level, and is made of fine hardwood that appears to be birch or maple, not pine. The mount can be set up in either equatorial or alt-azimuth mode and has large, useful, very readable and accurate setting circles- again showing it's scholastic purpose. It's motions are smooth and stable as are the locks and slow motions. Later models have all locks color-keyd in e peep-sights are servicable and also work well as a sun finder- (one only needs to place their hand behind the rear peep-sight and let the sun cast an alligned shadow. Again, the peep-sights belay the intended for school use- a small finderscope would need continuous re-aligning, and would soon go missing. There is nothing in the Telementor's construction that isn't well thought out, practical, useful, well intended, and well made. It is anything but cheap! While a Unitron 128 may be much more aesthetically pleasing in a traditional sense, having been a teacher, I can be most certain that it would have a far shorter 'shelf-life' than a Zeiss Telementor. These were placed in primary and secondary schools throughout the DDR and the fact that so many have survived is a testiment to how well made they are.


Edited by terraclarke, 12 June 2017 - 02:01 PM.

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#74 rolo

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 02:01 PM

The more you use it, the more you appreciate it. Telementor is an industry icon. Built like a rock, working like a Swiss watch.

I'll take this over a Teletormentor any day

 

https://www.astromar...ified_id=950846


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#75 starman876

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 02:30 PM

 

 

I like the looks of Telementors. They have a cool, heavy-handed industrial look, and the tripod is made out of the same wood that our old school desks used to be made of. They are unique! I liked my T2 but I like my T1 better. I can see parallels with them and Tinsley scopes in that industrial, minimalist, no nonsense look.

Do you have any Tinsley refractors?  I was always looking for one of their 5" Maks but Dave Trott has me thinking about one of their refractors. 

 

To me, the Telementor looks like a pipe.  A telescope deserves a proper dew shield to provide a balance to the scope, offsetting the focuser. grin.gif   Of course it doesn't really have a focuser as it's all internal but the knob on the T2 IIRC, so maybe there's balance after all.  I very much like the generous setting circles.  Does the T1 have a helical focuser?

 

The T1 indeed has an excellent helical focuser. One of the smoothest if not the smoothest focuser I have ever used. The tube is quite thick and heavy and is thus quite durable; the objective is nestled back fairly deeply within the tube so the forward portion acts as a dew shield. The objective cell itself is a heavy bronze, and all of this lends itself to added protection to the precious objective (remember, this instrument was intended for school use). Not only is the glass protected from breakage but it is much less likely to be knocked out of collimation than with the more traditional (Japanese) design where the exterior of the cell/countercell is exposed and serves to mate dew shield and tube. The Telementor's design is very well thought out given that it was intended for school use. It's utilitarian/no frills appearance harkens back to its Marxist origins in the former DDR. The tripod is heavy and well built, in the design of a mini-surveyors tripod. It contains a built-in bullseye bubble-level, and is made of fine hardwood that appears to be birch or maple, not pine. The mount can be set up in either equatorial or alt-azimuth mode and has large, useful, very readable and accurate setting circles- again showing it's scholastic purpose. It's motions are smooth and stable as are the locks and slow motions. Later models have all locks color-keyd in e peep-sights are servicable and also work well as a sun finder- (one only needs to place their hand behind the rear peep-sight and let the sun cast an alligned shadow. Again, the peep-sights belay the intended for school use- a small finderscope would need continuous re-aligning, and would soon go missing. There is nothing in the Telementor's construction that isn't well thought out, practical, useful, well intended, and well made. It is anything but cheap! While a Unitron 128 may be much more aesthetically pleasing in a traditional sense, having been a teacher, I can be most certain that it would have a far shorter 'shelf-life' than a Zeiss Telementor. These were placed in primary and secondary schools throughout the DDR and the fact that so many have survived is a testiment to how well made they are.

 

Terra has brought out some very good points on the telementor.  They were meant to take on a harsh environment and survived where mere mortal japanese scopes would have been piles of scrap metal and kindling for firewood which is where many of them wound up.  I cannot tell you how many garbage cans I filled up with japanese 60mm scope parts.


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