Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

3 frames per second with Eclipse Orchestrator

  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

#26 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 12:27 PM

Hey Guys,

 

I just wanted to chime in here on the mirror discussions.  Maybe I am missing something, but I have taken images of 2 eclipses (2001 and 2002) with FILM SLR cameras an I never had a problem with shake from the mirror.  It just did not seem to be an issue even with my long exposures to get full corona.  I was using 200 speed slide film and had corona exposures up to 1/2 second long and mirror vibration was just not an issue.  So, I understand wanting to discuss it and be sure you understand it, but speaking from direct experience, it was just not an issue for my eclipse photography.  I have read about everything that Fred Espenak has written on eclipse photography and I just don't remember him ever making a big deal about either.

 

There are so many other issues to worry about with eclipse photography that I have concentrated on through time and mirror vibration was just never on the list.  So I find these discussions interesting.

 

In 2001 I was using a reasonably good quality regular camera tripod and in 2002 I was using a portable German equatorial mount.

 

You can see all of my photography results in my "Demystifying" threads pinned to this forum.

https://www.cloudyni...-links-threads/

 

Hi Gordon,

 

Film is not capable of the kind of resolution you get with digital. 

 

But I have done extensive tests with my equipment (AT65Q 420mm focal length, Canon 700D and Nikon D5300, Losmandy GM8 mount) and it is rock solid and I definitely see blur from 1/30th of a second to longer exposures.

 

I will have a more extensive post about this with examples in my astrophotography column tomorrow on my blog here:

 

http://www.astropix.com/wp/

 

Jerry


  • foxwoodastronomy likes this

#27 foxwoodastronomy

foxwoodastronomy

    Vendor - Solar Eclipse Timer

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 188
  • Joined: 22 Feb 2017
  • Loc: Alabama

Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:18 PM

Jerry,

 

OK.  I will take your work for it right now.  Yesterday I did full disk Sun disk imaging at 1/60 second and  the images looked good.  But I am going to keep following this subject and make sure I take this into consideration so I don't have an issue with the longer exposures.

 

Thanks for you input and help.

 

Gordon



#28 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:49 PM

Jerry,

 

OK.  I will take your work for it right now.  Yesterday I did full disk Sun disk imaging at 1/60 second and  the images looked good.  But I am going to keep following this subject and make sure I take this into consideration so I don't have an issue with the longer exposures.

 

Thanks for you input and help.

Hi Gordon,

 

You might not see it on a shot of the full disk of the Sun. You might just attribute it to normal daytime seeing. You don't really have any comparison for reference. Same thing with the Moon. If you shoot 100 frames, you are going to have frame-to-frame variations in sharpness just do to seeing.

 

You really need to test your entire exposure sequence at night on a bright star or on Jupiter.

 

Jerry



#29 PI_CO100

PI_CO100

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 32
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Posted 16 July 2017 - 02:38 PM

Ultimately testing is key. I think MLU gives you a little more sharpeness. It comes at the price of loss of precious time.  Life is a compromise.

 

I hope to have enough time and reasonable nights to test it. There are just clouds clouds and more clouds here in England. Since it is a small vibration, I am inclined to think that keeping at 0.5 seconds would be sufficient.

 

Some lessons learned in my testing:

- Avoid installing new software. I installed EOS Utilities 3 this afternoon on my laptop and EOpro refused to work. EOS utilities 3 running in the background got hold of the shutter without asking or telling me and would not let go of it . Panick attack!

- If, like me, you do not have a clear sky use a lightbulb or something bright to test EOpro as using the lens cap will result in smaller size files than on eclipse day.

 

At the moment my sequence looks like this.

 

Attached File  Capture.PNG   67.4KB   1 downloads

 

Unlike Jerry, I have a cat keeping me company on my test desk. She still gets a bit nervous when the DSRL fires all those shots!

 

Piero

 

 

 



#30 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 02:46 PM

Ultimately testing is key. I think MLU gives you a little more sharpeness. It comes at the price of loss of precious time.  Life is a compromise.

 

I hope to have enough time and reasonable nights to test it. There are just clouds clouds and more clouds here in England. Since it is a small vibration, I am inclined to think that keeping at 0.5 seconds would be sufficient.

 

Some lessons learned in my testing:

- Avoid installing new software. I installed EOS Utilities 3 this afternoon on my laptop and EOpro refused to work. EOS utilities 3 running in the background got hold of the shutter without asking or telling me and would not let go of it . Panick attack!

- If, like me, you do not have a clear sky use a lightbulb or something bright to test EOpro as using the lens cap will result in smaller size files than on eclipse day.

 

Hi Peiro,

 

If some of the images are blurry, you might not use them anyway, so you get less frames with MLU, but they will be good.

 

You have to test it with your indivudual setup.  With my setup, I'll show an example in my astrophotography column tomorrow where you can see that the vibrations don't die down for about 1 second, and my setup is rock solid.

 

You can go into preferences in EOS utility and turn off it connecting to the camera when you attach the camera to the computer.

 

Jerry



#31 dghundt

dghundt

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 194
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2017

Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:11 PM

I recall with the Sony A7r1 people had a lot of shutter vibrations with telephoto focal lengths when the camera was mounted by the lens.
Some people fashioned small weights to hang from the camera base. Others would put a weighted flash on top. This patchwork fix might give extra time for more images.

Edited by dghundt, 16 July 2017 - 04:12 PM.


#32 Tech Hiker

Tech Hiker

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 143
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2009
  • Loc: Columbus Nebraska USA

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:15 PM

Jerry, could you talk about the f/65 in your script?  I was planning to use f/6.3,  500mm focal length over 80mm aperture.  Or were you looking past that and only concerned with shot rate with this test?

 

Tom



#33 johnpd

johnpd

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 864
  • Joined: 12 Apr 2008
  • Loc: Green Valley, AZ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:32 PM

The Nikon D90 does not have mirror lock up as a normal course of shooting. It is only available for "sensor cleaning". Jupiter or a star would be pretty tiny at a F/L of 480mm. Would you really be able to determine if there is blurring with this set up? Would a small Moon crescent work?

 

JohnD


  • foxwoodastronomy likes this

#34 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:55 PM

Jerry, could you talk about the f/65 in your script?  I was planning to use f/6.3,  500mm focal length over 80mm aperture.  Or were you looking past that and only concerned with shot rate with this test?

 

Hi Tom,

 

That's just a peculiarity of EO. It asks for aperture in the preferences and when you hook up a scope with a fixed f/number, it puts in the aperture.  It doesn't matter in practice because the f/number of the scope is fixed and EO couldn't change it if it wanted to.

 

If you have a camera lens, those numbers do mean something so they should be correct for the f/number you want to use.

 

Jerry



#35 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:56 PM

The Nikon D90 does not have mirror lock up as a normal course of shooting. It is only available for "sensor cleaning". Jupiter or a star would be pretty tiny at a F/L of 480mm. Would you really be able to determine if there is blurring with this set up? Would a small Moon crescent work?

 

If you don't have mirror lock up, then it's a moot point since you're not going to be able to use it.

 

I tested my AT655Q with 420mm of focal length and it was easy to see blur from mirror slip and shutter shock on a star and on jupiter.

 

Jerry



#36 dghundt

dghundt

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 194
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2017

Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:21 PM

Just finished testing at 600mm f/4 with a Canon 5D4, CEM25P on Vega.

Short exposures as I just roughly polar aligned.

At 100% view, I can see slight star deformity from the mirror.  It is so small, I really need to zoom at 200% or more to clearly see the circle become a little egg-ish.

I think for this combination, I won't use MLU.

 

There are 1 second exposures.

 

No mirror lock up

https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-MNpgmBR/A

 

Mirror Lock up

https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-7CrbRKn/A


Edited by dghundt, 17 July 2017 - 06:32 AM.

  • foxwoodastronomy likes this

#37 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 16 July 2017 - 11:41 PM

Just finished testing at 600mm f/4 with a Canon 5D4, CEM25P on Vega.

Short exposures as I just roughly polar aligned.

At 100% view, I can see slight star deformity from the mirror.  It is so small, I really need to zoom at 200% or more to clearly see the circle become a little egg-ish.

I think for this combination, I won't use MLU.

 

No mirror lock up

https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-MNpgmBR/A

 

Mirror Lock up

https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-7CrbRKn/A

Yes, you won't see it that much at long exposures like 1 second, because the blur is overwritten by the brightness of the star after it stops moving.

 

But it shows up more on exposures from about 1/30th to 1/8th second.

 

Jerry



#38 dghundt

dghundt

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 194
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2017

Posted 17 July 2017 - 06:31 AM

Mirror vibration is a little more noticeable Jerry at 1/8th second compared to 1 sec as you said. I can mildly detect the deformations at 50% view.

These are 1/8th second exposures.

No MLU
https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-zkvBJLP/A

With MLU
https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-9d6Pdfx/A

It seems the mirror vibration effect peaks around 1/4 second. I uploaded these too, one can download if desired for inspection. Fortunately, I see no shutter shock.
I think for this setup, 2 minutes of opportunity, it's a tough call.
My PromoteControl works very well, but can't program specific exposure times. I'll start at something like 1/8000 at ISO 200, then stop around 1sec. My main choice is the fixed EV exposure difference between shots. I have had it set at 1ev (1 stop) but that means around 15 captures. With MLU, that adds a lot of time.

I wonder what the minimum space between bracketed exposures I can get by with?

P.S. nice blog entry today!

Edited by dghundt, 17 July 2017 - 07:55 AM.


#39 Tech Hiker

Tech Hiker

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 143
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2009
  • Loc: Columbus Nebraska USA

Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:23 AM

 

Jerry, could you talk about the f/65 in your script?  I was planning to use f/6.3,  500mm focal length over 80mm aperture.  Or were you looking past that and only concerned with shot rate with this test?

 

Hi Tom,

 

That's just a peculiarity of EO. It asks for aperture in the preferences and when you hook up a scope with a fixed f/number, it puts in the aperture.  It doesn't matter in practice because the f/number of the scope is fixed and EO couldn't change it if it wanted to.

 

If you have a camera lens, those numbers do mean something so they should be correct for the f/number you want to use.

 

Jerry

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the different numbers you are getting from EO than my numbers for exposure for Baily's Beads.  If I understand this correctly then you must be using a focal length of around 3600mm when you made this script?

 

Tom



#40 maxmir

maxmir

    Messenger

  • ***--
  • Posts: 406
  • Joined: 03 Oct 2005

Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:07 AM

Great topic.

I just tested my T3i with EO on the filtered sun yesterday.

I was able to get a full set into the card using 1.5 between exposures.   All exposures wrote to the card without loss.

I am using a Hap Griffin serial cable and USB2. Also bought the fastest SD card I could find.

 

I have not tested for Mirror slap. This a good idea.

I don't have that sturdy a setup as a Losmandy mount. Air travel is no fun with CW. I am using a Sky tracker Pro.

I did notice wind can be factor too. Might have to shoot next a building if it is windy.

 

One question, why are diamond ring exposures longer than Baily's beads ? That does not make to much sense to me.

 

Max



#41 Tech Hiker

Tech Hiker

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 143
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2009
  • Loc: Columbus Nebraska USA

Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:35 AM

My guess is that they want the diamond to over-expose a little and bloom out?

 

Tom



#42 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:01 PM

Mirror vibration is a little more noticeable Jerry at 1/8th second compared to 1 sec as you said. I can mildly detect the deformations at 50% view.

These are 1/8th second exposures.

No MLU
https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-zkvBJLP/A

With MLU
https://davidsphotog...MsH/i-9d6Pdfx/A

It seems the mirror vibration effect peaks around 1/4 second. I uploaded these too, one can download if desired for inspection. Fortunately, I see no shutter shock.
I think for this setup, 2 minutes of opportunity, it's a tough call.
My PromoteControl works very well, but can't program specific exposure times. I'll start at something like 1/8000 at ISO 200, then stop around 1sec. My main choice is the fixed EV exposure difference between shots. I have had it set at 1ev (1 stop) but that means around 15 captures. With MLU, that adds a lot of time.

I wonder what the minimum space between bracketed exposures I can get by with?

P.S. nice blog entry today!

Thanks!

 

You're just going to have to test it by trial and error to see what the spacing needs to be between frames.

 

I've been spending a lot of time doing that myself.

 

Jerry



#43 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:02 PM

 

 

Jerry, could you talk about the f/65 in your script?  I was planning to use f/6.3,  500mm focal length over 80mm aperture.  Or were you looking past that and only concerned with shot rate with this test?

 

Hi Tom,

 

That's just a peculiarity of EO. It asks for aperture in the preferences and when you hook up a scope with a fixed f/number, it puts in the aperture.  It doesn't matter in practice because the f/number of the scope is fixed and EO couldn't change it if it wanted to.

 

If you have a camera lens, those numbers do mean something so they should be correct for the f/number you want to use.

 

Jerry

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the different numbers you are getting from EO than my numbers for exposure for Baily's Beads.  If I understand this correctly then you must be using a focal length of around 3600mm when you made this script?

 

Tom

 

No, the focal length was 420mm. The aperture was 65mm.  The f/number was f/6.5.

 

Jerry



#44 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:08 PM

Great topic.

I just tested my T3i with EO on the filtered sun yesterday.

I was able to get a full set into the card using 1.5 between exposures.   All exposures wrote to the card without loss.

I am using a Hap Griffin serial cable and USB2. Also bought the fastest SD card I could find.

 

I have not tested for Mirror slap. This a good idea.

I don't have that sturdy a setup as a Losmandy mount. Air travel is no fun with CW. I am using a Sky tracker Pro.

I did notice wind can be factor too. Might have to shoot next a building if it is windy.

 

One question, why are diamond ring exposures longer than Baily's beads ? That does not make to much sense to me.

 

Max

Sounds like you are doing good.

 

There are two definitions of the Diamond Ring.

 

On is that it is the very last Baily's Bead.  

 

One is the last Baily's Beads along with the inner corona to form the "diamond" (Baily's Beads) and the 'ring" (inner corona).

 

If you shoot the wanning crescent with a filter as Baily's Beads form, you're not going to get anything looking like a diamond ring.

 

If you shoot it without a filter and you use a really short exposure, you won't get the ring.

 

The Ring is the inner corona and you need to base your unfiltered exposure on that, and then the overexposed Baily's Beads form the diamond.

 

Jerry



#45 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 17 July 2017 - 01:08 PM

My guess is that they want the diamond to over-expose a little and bloom out?

 

Tom

Yes, and to base the exposure on the inner corona for the ring, so the last beads are naturally going to be overexposed.

 

Jerry



#46 maxmir

maxmir

    Messenger

  • ***--
  • Posts: 406
  • Joined: 03 Oct 2005

Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:07 PM

Jerry,

 

I am at f 6 too.  The filter off sequence on standard script is selecting 500 of sec to start for the ring . Then it shifts to 4000sec as we get to the beads.

Are you planning to shoot your sequence like this ?

That is,  what exposure are you starting with?

 

Max



#47 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:30 PM

Jerry,

 

I am at f 6 too.  The filter off sequence on standard script is selecting 500 of sec to start for the ring . Then it shifts to 4000sec as we get to the beads.

Are you planning to shoot your sequence like this ?

That is,  what exposure are you starting with?

 

Max

Hi Max,

 

I'm at f/6.5, not f/6:

 

At f/6.5, in this order:

 

Baily's Beads 1/4000th at ISO 100.

Diamond Ring at 1/200th at ISO 200

2nd contact

Chromosphere 1/4000th at ISO 100

Prominences 1/2000th at ISO 100

HDR bracket starting at 1/1000th at ISO 200.

 

See my trial sequence here:

 

http://www.astropix....7.html#Sequence

 

Jerry


  • rainycityastro likes this

#48 rainycityastro

rainycityastro

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,312
  • Joined: 29 Mar 2010
  • Loc: Seattle, WA

Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:06 AM

I am late to the party. But better late than never! I just downloaded the trial version and connected it to my 5D2 just to trial shooting Bailey's beads and the corona. It went off  smoothly even though I programmed it to be quite slow (a gap of 2 secs between exposures)

I especially loved the auditory cues "Filter off!!" and "Filter on!" and the time warnings. I will get the full version as soon as my shutter release from Hap arrives.

 

I will use your parameters with my FSQ/5D2 with some slight modification and bracket like crazy as always. 



#49 Jerry Lodriguss

Jerry Lodriguss

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 7,387
  • Joined: 19 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Voorhees, NJ

Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:15 PM

I am late to the party. But better late than never! I just downloaded the trial version and connected it to my 5D2 just to trial shooting Bailey's beads and the corona. It went off  smoothly even though I programmed it to be quite slow (a gap of 2 secs between exposures)

I especially loved the auditory cues "Filter off!!" and "Filter on!" and the time warnings. I will get the full version as soon as my shutter release from Hap arrives.

 

I will use your parameters with my FSQ/5D2 with some slight modification and bracket like crazy as always. 

 

You can never go wrong by bracketing... :-)

 

Jerry



#50 rainycityastro

rainycityastro

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,312
  • Joined: 29 Mar 2010
  • Loc: Seattle, WA

Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:26 PM

While I am waiting for the serial cable to arrive, does the MLU not work unless there is a serial cable and pro version of EO? I noticed that MLU was disabled in the hardware configuration menu.

 

Does the mirror stay up when shooting a fast sequence of commands? Or does the program have to wait for the mirror to drop and then wait another 0.35 secs or more to raise the mirror and take a picture?

 

Also how much time should elapse between raising mirror and starting the shot. The default appears to be 0.35 secs. Is this sufficient to eliminate vibrations? Or better to increase to 1 sec?




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics