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So my Z12 turned into a Z10

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#1 Muddman97

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:25 PM

I recently responded to an online ad for someone selling a Zhumell Z12 dob with multiple eyepieces for $350.

 

Being a newbie in this hobby, and suffering badly with my little outdated 114mm newtonian, I quickly contacted the seller and told her I'd be right over to take a look at the scope.  Upon arrival, she informed me that it had a 12" mirror and had only been outside twice in the 2 years she owned it.  It looked like it came right out of the box.  Needless to say I was more than excited to pick up such a fine scope at such a great price.

 

I inspected the eyepieces, took a quick glance down the tube (I can only imagine the twinkle in my eyes when I saw that big shiny primary), checked out the alt/azi bearings and all were in perfect condition.  Even 3 of the 5 eyepieces were still in original packaging.  I eagerly handed over my money and loaded up the scope, anxious to get it under the stars for some viewing.

 

Arriving at home just before dusk, I set it up in the backyard and was amazed at the wild views I was getting.  I spent hours in the dark just cruising the sky, hopping from Jupiter to Saturn, Vega to Arcturus, wide angle 30mm ep to tight 8mm, tried a couple Messiers but hadn't quite got down my star navigation yet but nevertheless, I was hooked.  This completely blew away my little 114mm.  Money well spent.

 

Then I started a couple little mods.  Nothing big, just added a Telrad, moved the 8x50 finderscope over 3/4 inch to accommodate the Telrad, and added a shower cap dust cover to the bottom of the tube.  Then I decided to make a lightshade for the end of the tube which, of course, required some measurements.  Circumference = diameter x 3.14....but my tube diameter only measured just a hair over 12".  What gives, I thought.  Looking down the tube, I saw there was at least 3/4 inch gap on each side of the primary...how could this be a 12" mirror as advertised?  Then it dawned on me and my heart sank just a little bit, by like 2 inches, my Z12 had become a Z10.  In my haste to improve my aperture, I failed to take measurements before purchasing.  Taking the kind lady at her word of it being a 12" mirror, my excited newbie status had bit me in the hind quarters.

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE THIS SCOPE, and I still got one heck of a deal on a practically new scope, but I would've much rather had the error in aperture go the OTHER way.

 

So now I find myself suffering from aperture envy yet again.  Wondering how much the amazing views I am getting with a 10 inch would improve with a 14 or even 16 inch dob.  At some point I'd like to get into AP but that is years down the road for me since it is such a major investment for proper gear.  So being just a visual astro guy for now, I'd like to get into the biggest aperture I can manage.  A 12 inch seems just a modest jump so I've been eyeballing the 14's and 16's.  I've seen the Orion XX16 and the thing is a monster but being that it collapses into manageable pieces, I believe it would fit my needs and cure my aperture envy for visual observing.

 

I suppose if there's a question in all this it would be is there a large amount of difference in viewing power between a 10 inch and a 12 or 14 inch, or even a 16 inch?  Enough of a difference to justify the expense of a new king sized dob?

 

Other than those questions, I just wanted to go off on a rant a little bit about my experience being new to the hobby and lessons learned about the 2nd hand market...buyer beware and always know your measurements and bring along your tape measure.  lol.gif


Edited by Muddman97, 18 July 2017 - 06:48 AM.

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#2 kfiscus

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:36 PM

If it's any consolation, you paid exactly what the going rate is for a used 10" dob.  The same innocent mistake has happened to lots of others, too.

 

I love my 12" scopes.  Keep your eyes open for another 12" scope and then flip this 10".  I own a 16" scope.  It is a real handful.  The views are great but my 12" scope gets out more.


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#3 tomykay12

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:41 PM

10" is an excellent size. Buy a 12 and your in the water heater moving business.


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#4 Muddman97

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:43 PM

If it's any consolation, you paid exactly what the going rate is for a used 10" dob.  The same innocent mistake has happened to lots of others, too.

 

Thanks Ken, that does make me feel a bit better.  I feel I also got the added bonus of the extra eyepieces as well.

 

Would the views really improve that much with just an additional 2" of aperture if I went with a 12"?



#5 Juan Rayo

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:50 PM

Yikes,

sorry about that. It´s a good thing the scope seems to be in perfect mechanical and optical conditions, and there´s always the chance the seller didn´t know a 10 from a 12..., so honest mistake. Least I´d like to think so. Still should probably contact the seller?

 

But yeah, it is not quite the same when you think you get one thing and instead get another.


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#6 Richard O'Neill

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:51 PM

You did fine. Scopes larger than 10" can quickly become a pain to carry, transport and store once the new wears off.


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#7 kfiscus

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:21 PM

 

If it's any consolation, you paid exactly what the going rate is for a used 10" dob.  The same innocent mistake has happened to lots of others, too.

 

Thanks Ken, that does make me feel a bit better.  I feel I also got the added bonus of the extra eyepieces as well.

 

Would the views really improve that much with just an additional 2" of aperture if I went with a 12"?

 

This will probably start an opinion storm, but...

Yes, the 2" is worth the one-time expense and every night hassle of moving a scope.  I owned a 10" when I got my first 12".  The 10" never got used again.  I sold it.


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#8 ericthemantis

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:28 PM

To put in in perspective, going from 114mm to 10" gave you over 380% increase in light gathering. 10" to 12" gives 56% more light, 12" to 14" 44%, 14" to 16" 36% etc. Going bigger, atleast by the numbers, won't feel as significant as the jump you just made. But I can totally understand the bummer feeling of not having what you thought you did. 


Edited by ericthemantis, 17 July 2017 - 05:30 PM.

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#9 pierce

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:32 PM

a 12" hard tube dob is quite a armfull, and the chinese truss scopes like Orion XX etc don't really make things that much better.   I'd much rather have an ultralight design like www.dobstuff.com builds for anything 12" or larger.     I helped a guy build a XX16g, and was /not/ impressed at all, but he was determined to have computerized goto.


Edited by pierce, 17 July 2017 - 05:33 PM.

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#10 sopticals

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:49 PM

14" would be a worth while upgrade. Delivers just shy of 2x light gathering ability of the 10". Never owned a 10" personally, but having gone from 8" to 12" to 14" always noticed the aperture upgrade as substantial, even from 12" to 14" was very noticeable.BTW I am an "Apertureholic". Beware of catching the "aperture bug".

 

Stephen.(45deg.S.)


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#11 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:50 PM

10" is an excellent size. Buy a 12 and your in the water heater moving business.

:waytogo:

 

Would the views really improve that much with just an additional 2" of aperture if I went with a 12"?

 

 

The short answer:

 

See above.

 

The long answer:  

 

The views of a 10 inch and a 12 inch are more the same than they are different.  I have owned my 10 inch F/5 Dob since 2003.  It's never been my biggest scope but it's a favorite and it gets a lot of use.  

 

I think of it as big enough to provide some amazing views but not too big so you're in the water heater business.  If your Z-10 had actually been a Z-12, you'd know what I mean.

 

There's always a bigger scope out there.  The key is enjoying what you do have and learning to use it in the most effective possible way. Developing your observing skills by getting out there at every chance you get will make a bigger difference by far than those 2 inch can provide.

 

Jon


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#12 Ed D

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:18 PM

A 10" Dob in excellent condition with 5 eyepieces for $350?  Wow, you got a very good deal on a very nice scope.  You have nothing to regret.  Get outside and enjoy your scope, which has tremendous potential.

 

Ed D


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#13 paul hart

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:29 PM

You got a great deal. I think the seller made an honest mistake. Personally I'd keep the 10 and sometime in the future upgrade to a 14" or larger truss but keep the 10 as a grab and go.

 

 

IMO if I could only have ONE telescope, it would be a 10 inch dob.


Edited by paul hart, 17 July 2017 - 08:31 PM.

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#14 Sketcher

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 10:00 PM

You got an excellent deal considering what you paid and what you received -- assuming reasonable quality.

 

Despite what many have said and will say, aperture isn't everything -- at least not to everyone.  I have a 10".  I have a 12".  My most used telescopes are a 5" and a 6".  Much depends on the person, their sky, what they want to see and/or how they want to make use of their telescope(s).

 

A 10" telescope is more than capable of providing a lifetime of pleasurable use -- at least for someone like myself.  I can honestly say that I've not used my 10" nor my 12" once in the past 12 months.  I didn't need their greater light grasp.  I didn't need their greater resolution.  On the other hand, I've seen things with my 5" that others have failed to see with *much* larger telescopes.

 

Once at a star party someone was talking about the need for a 40" telescope.  I asked: "Why?"  They replied: "You can see things that you can't see with a smaller telescope."  I said: "Like what?"  They mentioned one specific object -- the wrong object.  I was able to honestly reply: "I've seen that with a 5" telescope."


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#15 pierce

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 10:14 PM

galaxies that were barely discernible faint smudges against dark skies in my 10" are wonders of detail in a 18 or 20" scope.


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#16 Pinbout

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:07 AM

Its in a 10" globs become alive

 

Its in a 12" m82's notch becomes detailed.

 

And a 12" doesn't have to be a water heater

 

gallery_106859_3508_302561.jpg


Edited by Pinbout, 18 July 2017 - 12:10 AM.

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#17 Muddman97

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:16 AM

14" would be a worth while upgrade. Delivers just shy of 2x light gathering ability of the 10". Never owned a 10" personally, but having gone from 8" to 12" to 14" always noticed the aperture upgrade as substantial, even from 12" to 14" was very noticeable.BTW I am an "Apertureholic". Beware of catching the "aperture bug".

 

Stephen.(45deg.S.)

Holy cow!  Aperture-holic is maybe a slight understatement, Mr. 33".  bow.gif

 

A 14 is kind of where I'm leaning towards as to get a worth while jump in light gathering.  Trying to stay away from the goto's and computerized scopes as I really am enjoying my Messier hunting and star hopping with the Telrad on the Z10.  About the only thing tempting me with the computerized dobs is the tracking ability.



#18 Muddman97

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:39 AM

 

 

The views of a 10 inch and a 12 inch are more the same than they are different.  I have owned my 10 inch F/5 Dob since 2003.  It's never been my biggest scope but it's a favorite and it gets a lot of use.  

 

I think of it as big enough to provide some amazing views but not too big so you're in the water heater business.  If your Z-10 had actually been a Z-12, you'd know what I mean.

 

There's always a bigger scope out there.  The key is enjoying what you do have and learning to use it in the most effective possible way. Developing your observing skills by getting out there at every chance you get will make a bigger difference by far than those 2 inch can provide.

 

Jon

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm in love with this Z10 and can't seem to get enough time under the stars to satisfy.  I swear I got lost for hours when I found M13.  I guess I'm just future tripping a little.  Thinking I could have the Z10 as my grab n go and perhaps a 14 as my end-all-be-all before jumping into AP someday.


Edited by Muddman97, 18 July 2017 - 07:41 AM.


#19 epee

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:52 AM

You may have experienced a "backhanded favor". You got a reasonable deal instead of a super deal but, you are pleased with the scope. The XT10 is about the max aperture, closed tubed, mass produced Newtonian that will fit into a sedan. I own a closed tube, XT12, and while I don't find it difficult to use it around my home, it does become a production to transport it.


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#20 Penarin

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:25 AM

Keeping the 10" for grab n go and maybe down the road, jumping to a 14" sounds like a fine plan to me.

 

Going from 10 to 14 is nearly a 2x jump in light gathering, and you aren't yet into the "scope so big and heavy you don't use it as much" territory.   


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#21 pierce

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:30 PM

You may have experienced a "backhanded favor". You got a reasonable deal instead of a super deal but, you are pleased with the scope. The XT10 is about the max aperture, closed tubed, mass produced Newtonian that will fit into a sedan. I own a closed tube, XT12, and while I don't find it difficult to use it around my home, it does become a production to transport it.

closed tube XT12i, Oberwerk BT45-100 binocs in a large pelican/storm case, tripod for said binocs, stool for binos, astro chair, table for accessoris, aux lounge chair, eyepiece case, accessory case, all fit in a 1990's Volvo 740/940 wagon with room to spare as long as the back seats are folded down.

 

IMG_1177-X3.jpg

 

same load in the back of a Tacoma (which isn't actually any bigger than the Volvo 740/940 wagon!)

IMG_1498-X3.jpg


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#22 gene 4181

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:48 PM

 

 

 

The views of a 10 inch and a 12 inch are more the same than they are different.  I have owned my 10 inch F/5 Dob since 2003.  It's never been my biggest scope but it's a favorite and it gets a lot of use.  

 

I think of it as big enough to provide some amazing views but not too big so you're in the water heater business.  If your Z-10 had actually been a Z-12, you'd know what I mean.

 

There's always a bigger scope out there.  The key is enjoying what you do have and learning to use it in the most effective possible way. Developing your observing skills by getting out there at every chance you get will make a bigger difference by far than those 2 inch can provide.

 

Jon

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm in love with this Z10 and can't seem to get enough time under the stars to satisfy.  I swear I got lost for hours when I found M13.  I guess I'm just future tripping a little.  Thinking I could have the Z10 as my grab n go and perhaps a 14 as my end-all-be-all before jumping into AP someday.

 

Look on the bright side  , with a 10in at 5   you can  "still " get a 2 degree AFOV   thru the thing    "relatively "  inexpensively  with a 30mm-31mm -82 .


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#23 pierce

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 01:17 PM

and against a truly dark sky, that 2 deg. field with a 6mm exit pupil will be absolutely stunning on things like M31, M42, M8.


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#24 Pinbout

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:22 PM

my 12in in the back of my van...

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=tlb_pfZRY8Q



#25 pierce

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:46 PM

hey, I'm packing an Obsession 20" plus all stuff needed in my Tacoma now :)

 

IMG_20170607_114306-1497669705047-X2.jpg

 

to whats in there, I can add 2 10x10 popup awnings, several camp chairs, a small buffet table, my eyepiece case, accessory bin, a 5 gallon water jug, a 2000VA DC inverter generator, etc, and be ready for a week at a major star party...  the ladder goes on a roof rack now, which makes things easier.   those silver motorcycle ramps are used to get the 20/5 in and out of said pickup

 

hey, this guy from my club has a 18" truss in his MINICOOPER, along with all his camping gear, tent, etc, PLUS a halpha solar scope on a motorized tripod...   https://photos.app.g...bulRqnFQoNq5Iu2


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