48 replies to this topic

[Jon Isaacs]

 

If the damage will not affect the resale value if you ever want to get rid of it then live with it,D.

You can be 100% certain that the damage will affect the re-sale value.  Owners of high-end refractors are generally finicky, if not OCD.

 

 

 

That is the one thing we can be sure of.. 

 

How much it affects the view.. who really knows, I might be extra happy with the view because I got an A-P Traveler for $3500 rather than the more normal $5000+ whereas the next guy might always be thinking about that scratch and just can't let it go.. 

 

When I bought my 25 inch Obsession, I got it for a very good price because it had a clamshell fracture on the backside of the mirror.  Whether or not it affected the views.. well the views were very good but it always bothered me.  When I went to sell it, I prominently displayed the clamshell and asked a price in accordance with the perceived loss of value.  

 

As it happened, the eventual buyer for the scope contacted me at the very moment I had made the deal for a 25 inch F/5 Nova mirror and Obsession upper cage that showed up on Craigslist..  The seller was asking $500, I gave her $1000 and sold it to the eventual buyer for the $1000.. 

 

 

Now refractor people are much more likely to suffer from OCD than reflector people but in the final analysis it's all about perceived value and a fine lens that scratched, it's got to affect the perceived value.. 

[Binojunky]

 

If the damage will not affect the resale value if you ever want to get rid of it then live with it,D.

You can be 100% certain that the damage will affect the re-sale value.  Owners of high-end refractors are generally finicky, if not OCD.

 

I realise that, however how many people want to get rid of an AP Traveller scope??, even used they are hard to come by, unavailable new an existing model that's similar( and I may be wrong about that) will put you on a wait list of a decade or more,  regarding the scratches affecting the value, well the OP was considering the price of  $4.500 ,did he buy it?  D.

Edited by Binojunky, 22 August 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Rutilus]

An awful lot of APO owners have OCD on a scale that's truly ****. Any re-sale value will have to take a hit.

In terms of what you see in the eyepiece,  I would be very surprised if it  had  any effect on the views.

Here is a picture of one of my refractor lens, when I tested the scope next to a perfect example, I

could not see any difference in the planetary views between both scopes. 

Attached Thumbnails

• 

Edited by Rutilus, 22 August 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Paul G]

$4500 is a great price for a Traveler, sounds fair given the small cosmetic scratches in the coating.

AP would have to grind off the coatings and some of the glass with them, then completely refigure the lens element(s), not worth the trouble or the expected cost given the current problem would be undetectable at the eyepiece.

[photoracer18]

Lets see, I bought an SV-102ABV (LOMO) off eBay that had a chip off one edge of one element. I talked to Vic and he tracked it to a scope that was damaged in shipment and replaced by insurance. The shipping company (UPS) was selling it thru a broker. Got an almost $2k scope for $800. Later we did a  test and Vic said it could not be seen as different from new except that on a defocused star image you could see a small dark area on one edge. Actually sold it a few years later with full disclosure for $1100.

Bought a Sky Designs 14.25" Dob thru Gary Hand that had a chip on the front of the mirror from something getting dropped on it. It was blacked out by the then owner. As most Dob owners know that was a minor kind of thing.

Last but not least Dr. Greene's 6" F15 Jaegers built by Barry Griner had a lot of MgF2 coating loss over a good part of the front element. Yet on that well known 2005 Mars Opposition I pushed it to near 600x under perfect planetary sky conditions.

As someone who has cleaned a lot of optics I can truthfully say that cleanliness is highly over-rated.

[junomike]

The issue with buying something like this is some people look at it as an investment (like art) along with the actual purpose (viewing).

When there's a flaw in something like the lens,  the views remain unaffected however the re-sale takes a large hit.  Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

So If one is buying strictly to use it and not ever sell it, a discount may be worth it.  Me......I'm more of the collector/user who would rather pay another 20% (give or take) and get a near perfect specimen.

[Paul G]

The issue with buying something like this is some people look at it as an investment (like art) along with the actual purpose (viewing).

When there's a flaw in something like the lens,  the views remain unaffected however the re-sale takes a large hit.  Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

So If one is buying strictly to use it and not ever sell it, a discount may be worth it.  Me......I'm more of the collector/user who would rather pay another 20% (give or take) and get a near perfect specimen.

But if it's already at the discounted price it's a no lose proposition.

[Jon Isaacs]

 

The issue with buying something like this is some people look at it as an investment (like art) along with the actual purpose (viewing).

When there's a flaw in something like the lens,  the views remain unaffected however the re-sale takes a large hit.  Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

So If one is buying strictly to use it and not ever sell it, a discount may be worth it.  Me......I'm more of the collector/user who would rather pay another 20% (give or take) and get a near perfect specimen.

But if it's already at the discounted price it's a no lose proposition.

 

 

So, for early Traveler, what's the going rate, how much discount would you expect for a lens with coating damage like this?

 

I looked Astromart, the range seems to be from $4500 to close to $6000 for a virtually new one.  Most were at $5000.

 

Without knowing if there are other issues, it seems to me, $4000 is about the max..

 

Jon

[Paul G]

 

 

The issue with buying something like this is some people look at it as an investment (like art) along with the actual purpose (viewing).

When there's a flaw in something like the lens,  the views remain unaffected however the re-sale takes a large hit.  Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

So If one is buying strictly to use it and not ever sell it, a discount may be worth it.  Me......I'm more of the collector/user who would rather pay another 20% (give or take) and get a near perfect specimen.

But if it's already at the discounted price it's a no lose proposition.

 

 

So, for early Traveler, what's the going rate, how much discount would you expect for a lens with coating damage like this?

 

I looked Astromart, the range seems to be from $4500 to close to $6000 for a virtually new one.  Most were at $5000.

 

Without knowing if there are other issues, it seems to me, $4000 is about the max..

 

Jon

 

In the past year except for one outlier from APM the lowest price is one at $4850, one at $4995, the rest between $5000 and $6000 with a current ad selling one for $7000 but that isn't marked sold. The market will determine the max on this particular item, will be interesting to see. While searching I saw a Stowaway that sold earlier this year for $11,000, makes the Traveler seem like a bargain!

[junomike]

 

The issue with buying something like this is some people look at it as an investment (like art) along with the actual purpose (viewing).

When there's a flaw in something like the lens,  the views remain unaffected however the re-sale takes a large hit.  Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

So If one is buying strictly to use it and not ever sell it, a discount may be worth it.  Me......I'm more of the collector/user who would rather pay another 20% (give or take) and get a near perfect specimen.

But if it's already at the discounted price it's a no lose proposition.

 

Yes, for some.  The median price as per AM for 2016/2017 was around $5000 for one with no issues.

I myself would rather pay the extra 11% (even 15% if need be) to get one that I know will hold it's FULL value.

I can see how some will still think this is a fair deal however.

[Jon Isaacs]

 

 

 

The issue with buying something like this is some people look at it as an investment (like art) along with the actual purpose (viewing).

When there's a flaw in something like the lens,  the views remain unaffected however the re-sale takes a large hit.  Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

So If one is buying strictly to use it and not ever sell it, a discount may be worth it.  Me......I'm more of the collector/user who would rather pay another 20% (give or take) and get a near perfect specimen.

But if it's already at the discounted price it's a no lose proposition.

 

 

So, for early Traveler, what's the going rate, how much discount would you expect for a lens with coating damage like this?

 

I looked Astromart, the range seems to be from $4500 to close to $6000 for a virtually new one.  Most were at $5000.

 

Without knowing if there are other issues, it seems to me, $4000 is about the max..

 

Jon

 

In the past year except for one outlier from APM the lowest price is one at $4850, one at $4995, the rest between $5000 and $6000 with a current ad selling one for $7000 but that isn't marked sold. The market will determine the max on this particular item, will be interesting to see. While searching I saw a Stowaway that sold earlier this year for $11,000, makes the Traveler seem like a bargain!

 

 

https://www.astromar...ified_id=937184

 

$4550. 

 

There's one 2-3 years ago that sold for $4000..

 

I wondered if the APM scope was priced in Euros??

 

Jon

[Tank]

the coating damage wont affect the view much

however it will affect the resell for sure

if i were to price it out and they usually go for $5000

i would say a fair price is about $3000-$3500 for that type of damage

[elwaine]

I know I'm going to take heat for this, but as a former owner of a very fine Traveler, the mystique surrounding that instrument is just that: a mystique. Perhaps there was a time when the Traveler was the best 4" refractor one could buy... but that's in the past. It now has many rivals both in the quality of the optics and in the beautiful workmanship -- and at a much lower cost than the $5,000 price tag for a used (pristine) Traveler. It still has an edge in the weight category, and I'd agree that most folks will treasure the fact that it was made buy Rolland Christen; but otherwise, in "a blind" side by side evaluation with some of the other high quality 4" refractors produced today, I'd bet dollars to donuts that not one in ten could pick out the Traveler.

 

It's apparent that the OP wants to sell the Traveler, so in regards to the question asked, if you find the right buyer/user, the scratches will not be a deal breaker and it will sell at a reasonable discount. 

[TG]

Re. Roland working on lenses, my theory is that he's bored working in five inchers all the time so if you give him the opportunity to work on something different, he's inclined to take it. There was a report recently in the Classics forum of him fixing up an 180mm with a completely messed up front lens.

Tanveer

[junomike]

I know I'm going to take heat for this, but as a former owner of a very fine Traveler, the mystique surrounding that instrument is just that: a mystique. Perhaps there was a time when the Traveler was the best 4" refractor one could buy... but that's in the past. It now has many rivals both in the quality of the optics and in the beautiful workmanship -- and at a much lower cost than the $5,000 price tag for a used (pristine) Traveler. It still has an edge in the weight category, and I'd agree that most folks will treasure the fact that it was made buy Rolland Christen; but otherwise, in "a blind" side by side evaluation with some of the other high quality 4" refractors produced today, I'd bet dollars to donuts that not one in ten could pick out the Traveler.

 

It's apparent that the OP wants to sell the Traveler, so in regards to the question asked, if you find the right buyer/user, the scratches will not be a deal breaker and it will sell at a reasonable discount. 

Larry, I'm not disputing this but wouldn't mind a PM of some possible contenders

[HARRISON SCOPES]

Roland kindly repolished a very badly damaged 6' f12 for me a couple of years ago. It came back looking and performing like new, if he does agree to do it you get a superb job.

[Markab]

I think this very recent review of the AP Traveler from the respected Scopereviews UK site says it all, and why the Traveler still occupies a niche no other current scope does:

 

http://scopeviews.co...ravelerV2.0.htm

 

 

 

Spoiler alert: after a long quest to buy one and using it, he agrees there are other scopes competitive with the Traveler in many ways, but it is still unparalleled to any other top-notch 4" refractor...and he won't be selling it anytime soon.

Edited by Markab, 23 August 2017 - 08:44 AM.

[gezak22]

Larry, I'm not disputing this but wouldn't mind a PM of some possible contenders

I would put the cff105 f/6 on that list.

[m9x18]

In the real world, you would be hard-pressed to see any difference between this lens and a pristine one on an in-focus image.

 

Now having said that, because of the cosmetic issues, all that's left is to work out a price that's acceptable to the buyer and seller.

[photoracer18]

This is sort of like classic performance and muscle cars. You either buy it for investment or you buy it because you like to drive it. I'm in the like to drive it group and when I say driving I mean competition and track use. If all it did was sit in a garage and look good I would not have bought it. At one time I owned a 1970 Boss 429 Mustang, a 1965 Sunbeam Tiger (one of 3 I have owned), and a 1966 Shelby GT-350 racecar. All of them were driven in competition and on the street for the first 2.
Some people put their telescopes up like fine furniture in the living room. For me they usually get setup in the garage, ready for use.
Heck I drove the Boss 429 across the US from San Francisco to Maryland.

[Scott99]

Are the scratched coatings on this $4500 refractor worth fussing over? If you were a potential buyer, would the damage be a deal breaker? 

yikes!  Did you buy this already?  Absolutely for me it would be deal-breaker.  The high price tag on Travelers is affected by "collectability" which is ruined for this scope.   Of course the effect on actual "viewabililty" will be very minor if noticeable at all.  But with cash changing hands the question isn't about viewability but sell-ability when you're done with it.

 

In general I'd pay about half of market value for any high-end refractor with lens damage.  There's no way to know how much it would be worth without an auction, which is the way I would sell it.

 

On second thought, the Traveler's value may be performance-based.  When TEC tried to make and sell a similar scope for $4500 they could barely pull it off.  I guess every buyer would have to decide what the scope is worth to them.  For me, probably $2000-$2500.  For pristine condition $5000.  Generally used, $4000-4500.  Again just what I would personally pay.

Edited by Scott99, 23 August 2017 - 12:26 PM.

[elwaine]

 

I know I'm going to take heat for this, but as a former owner of a very fine Traveler, the mystique surrounding that instrument is just that: a mystique. Perhaps there was a time when the Traveler was the best 4" refractor one could buy... but that's in the past. It now has many rivals both in the quality of the optics and in the beautiful workmanship -- and at a much lower cost than the $5,000 price tag for a used (pristine) Traveler. It still has an edge in the weight category, and I'd agree that most folks will treasure the fact that it was made buy Rolland Christen; but otherwise, in "a blind" side by side evaluation with some of the other high quality 4" refractors produced today, I'd bet dollars to donuts that not one in ten could pick out the Traveler.

 

It's apparent that the OP wants to sell the Traveler, so in regards to the question asked, if you find the right buyer/user, the scratches will not be a deal breaker and it will sell at a reasonable discount. 

Larry, I'm not disputing this but wouldn't mind a PM of some possible contenders

 

Mike, PM sent. Thanks...

[jeanine]

No, I decided to pass on the Traveler. Last time I checked, it was still on the market. Besides the scratches on the coatings, I have heard of people spraying a cleaner on an optic and had it wick to the backside. Not saying this was the case, but I don't want to be the guy who finds out. I called AP and it would be very expensive to have them even lay eyes on the scope. Time to move on and purchase another 4" APO for half the price. Thanks to all who commented.

[jrbarnett]

Are the scratched coatings on this $4500 refractor worth fussing over? If you were a potential buyer, would the damage be a deal breaker? 

Is it scratched or just smeared?  Hard to tell from the picture.

 

Refractor lenses are very durable and easy to clean.  Maybe ask the seller to clean the lens and take a new picture?

 

Lastly, the fact that we're having this conversation and many say they would pass and look for a clean one, indicates that the condition would certainly affect demand if you were to resell it, and therefore resale price.

 

Hence what you do is look at examples that have sold without the scratches and offer the owner substantially less explaining that the scratches affect demand and therefore market value.  If he or she agrees, then you're safe should you resell, if not, you can move along and find one that is in better condition.

 

Regards,

 

Jim