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ASI New Camera -- 294 Pro ! - beta testing

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#101 A. Viegas

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:03 AM

Hi Alberic

I did move the USB limit slider all the way to 100%   and like I said 22fps was about the fastest it got.  My desktop has 2 1TB SSDs and is an 8 core AMD 8350 that is overclocked.   I dont think there is much more to say here about USB3 speed...   I dont think you will get much over 20fps even at smaller ROI,  I tested at 1920x1080 ROI and it was about the same speed.   For really fast frame rates I think the new imx385 or the existing imx224 will remain the preferred cameras for lucky planetary imaging.   20fps however is fast enough for Lunar or Solar I would think...    But ultimately the primary use of this new sensor is going to be DSOs

I hope to be able to do more live testing this weekend as Saturday night looks to be clear.

 

Al



#102 alphatripleplus

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:20 AM

Ran the USB3 test with my fast desktop, no difference in speed.  22fps  was about the fastest I got at RAW16 and full frame

 

 

Oh an interesting option in this camera is "Mono Bin"   It apparently will add RGGB 4 color pixels into 1 so according to Sam from ZWO, you can use it for Ha imaging under bin2

 

I have not yet tried this, but hopefully this weekend looks like Saturday will be clear

 

Al

Al,

 

Even though you can "mono bin", light still has to pass through the Bayer matrix which means you will have maybe 30% of the sensitivity of a true mono camera in H-alpha. It will be fun to see your results in H-alpha 2x2 "mono binned", but I suspect your RT290 mono will whip this baby in H-alpha! smile.gif . How about a match up between the two?



#103 jimthompson

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:26 AM

Ran the USB3 test with my fast desktop, no difference in speed.  22fps  was about the fastest I got at RAW16 and full frame

 

 

Oh an interesting option in this camera is "Mono Bin"   It apparently will add RGGB 4 color pixels into 1 so according to Sam from ZWO, you can use it for Ha imaging under bin2

 

I have not yet tried this, but hopefully this weekend looks like Saturday will be clear

 

Al

Hi Al,

 

Do you recall what the exposure time was when you were doing the speed test?  Sometimes I wonder why I am not getting the FPS that I should when doing planetary imaging, then realize the frame rate is being limited by the exposure time.  To get up into the 100 fps range your exposure needs to be less than 10 ms.  If you could only get 22 fps, maybe you were at an exposure time of 45 ms?  Just a thought.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jim T.



#104 Ain Soph Aur

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 09:22 AM

Brandon,

 

This is a USB 3 camera.

 

Both my ASI224 and ASI1600 have USB 3 and work fine for me over the StarTech. This seems to be some other issue since you are getting 100% dropped frames which should never happen.

 

What is your total cable length and is it a Cat5 or Cat6?

 

Hiten

Hi Hiten. It’s a 250’ CAT5 run. Perhaps I send to experiment with CAT6. I would really love getting this working with my 224!



#105 A. Viegas

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 10:59 AM

 

Ran the USB3 test with my fast desktop, no difference in speed.  22fps  was about the fastest I got at RAW16 and full frame

 

 

Oh an interesting option in this camera is "Mono Bin"   It apparently will add RGGB 4 color pixels into 1 so according to Sam from ZWO, you can use it for Ha imaging under bin2

 

I have not yet tried this, but hopefully this weekend looks like Saturday will be clear

 

Al

Hi Al,

 

Do you recall what the exposure time was when you were doing the speed test?  Sometimes I wonder why I am not getting the FPS that I should when doing planetary imaging, then realize the frame rate is being limited by the exposure time.  To get up into the 100 fps range your exposure needs to be less than 10 ms.  If you could only get 22 fps, maybe you were at an exposure time of 45 ms?  Just a thought.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jim T.

 

Hi Jim

 

Yea good point.   So I just retested.

same results at full frame   16-20fps with USB limit all the way up

 

if I turn ROI all the way down to 320x200   I get 160fps

            ROI at  1024x768  = 60fps

            ROI at 1920 x 1080 = 40fps

            ROI at  1920 x 1200  = 36fps

 

 

Al



#106 Astrojedi

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 01:45 PM

 

Brandon,

 

This is a USB 3 camera.

 

Both my ASI224 and ASI1600 have USB 3 and work fine for me over the StarTech. This seems to be some other issue since you are getting 100% dropped frames which should never happen.

 

What is your total cable length and is it a Cat5 or Cat6?

 

Hiten

Hi Hiten. It’s a 250’ CAT5 run. Perhaps I send to experiment with CAT6. I would really love getting this working with my 224!

 

Yes, 250' would be a bit long for USB3 over Cat5. For best results at those distances I would recommend cat6 optionally  with powered hubs as Al suggested.

 

On a lighter note, we here is CA don't have your issues. In CA we can fit 5 houses in 250' each likely 3x the price... a yard of that size is unheard of here : )



#107 XS_Man

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 05:25 AM

Hi Jim

 

Yea good point.   So I just retested.

same results at full frame   16-20fps with USB limit all the way up

if I turn ROI all the way down to 320x200   I get 160fps

            ROI at  1024x768  = 60fps

            ROI at 1920 x 1080 = 40fps

            ROI at  1920 x 1200  = 36fps

 

Al

 

 

Hi Al, I guess that these values are in 16 bits ?

 

Please, could you try in 8 (or 10 ?) bits mode on your desktop ? For planetary use 8 bits is

enough and faster.

 

Many thanks !

 

Albéric



#108 Astrojedi

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:44 AM

Some more captures this time using my newly acquired AT60ED F7 F6 (Correction)

 

All captures at F7 F6 using ASI294Pro (x2 bin, gain 300) on an AVX mount, no guiding. Note the coma around the outer parts of the frame. This is because I don't have the field flattener for the AT60 yet. All fast refractors suffer from field curvature hence a flattener is a must with larger sensors.

 

First up a single 30s unstacked exposure of M31.

 

Stack_1frames_30s.jpg


Edited by Astrojedi, 24 September 2017 - 07:15 PM.

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#109 Astrojedi

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:47 AM

Here is a stack of 7x30s of M31

 

Stack_7frames_210s.jpg


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#110 Relativist

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:54 AM

I'm also curious how the sensors HDR will do on objects like Orion.



#111 easybob95

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:13 AM

Hello,

 

well, that new camera does not look very promising. The first results are not really amazing and the frame rate is really bad.

 

An other future false new good camera ?

 

Alain


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#112 Astrojedi

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 11:14 AM

Alain,

 

Can you provide some insight into how you arrived at your conclusion? What is it about the camera that does not meet your expectations and what other camera are you comparing this to?

 

In my opinion based on my few days of use the sensitivity is head and shoulders above most others cameras I have used CMOS or CCD. The only color cameras more sensitive than this one are the a7s and 224. Even single 8-10s frames are much better vs. my ASI1600MC, Atik Infinity color and Ultrastar color. Just trying to understand your frame of reference here.

 

Also a little confused. How is 160 fps with ROI and 22 fps full frame not a good frame rate? Can you name one other camera which can achieve or better these frame rates at this resolution? Again just trying to understand which camera you are comparing this one to.

 

But I need to do more testing especially with better optics which can handle the larger sensors for EAA and also see how it performs from a dark site before drawing conclusions.

 

Again I know folks want one camera that can do it all and I think this will come very close. But this will be a DSO camera first. Large sensors are not best suited for planetary first use if you want to run it at full frame capture. It is just physics - the bandwidth needs are very substantial.

 

Hiten


Edited by Astrojedi, 24 September 2017 - 11:37 AM.

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#113 easybob95

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 11:33 AM

Hello Hiten,

 

the test pictures looks bad and i am not really impressed with the sensitivity of the sensor.We already have seen that kind of picture with "old" sensors.

 

And as i said, the frame rate is quite bad. This camera does not seems to be the One for planetary and DSO imaging.

 

It will not be a bad camera but nothing really new, considering the existing cameras.

 

I understand you can be a bit disappointed with that kind of comment but my comment does not mean you make bad test. It just say this camera does not seem to big a huge (or even small) step ahead existing camera.

 

So, in my opinion, from what you have shown, nothing really exciting. Still waiting for something really new and interesting.Maybe ZWO (or QHYCCD) could try to build something really new instead of giving us a new (not so really useful) sensor every 6 months.

 

A bit creativity would be well come.

 

Alain


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#114 Astrojedi

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 11:36 AM

Alain,

See my post above. Would like to understand your frame of reference.

 

The test pictures actually look very good to me. From my white LP zone and poor transparency location these are probably the best widefield EAA shots I have gotten. Now if someone with better optics and better skies tests this camera their results may be better.

 

Hiten


Edited by Astrojedi, 24 September 2017 - 11:44 AM.


#115 Relativist

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 11:44 AM

Those M31 look bright to me for f/7, that's a slow f/ratio for EAA use. Hopefully someone will get a chance to test with large fast optics.


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#116 A. Viegas

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

This camera is really great.   I was mostly working on capturing longer exposures last night and playing around with 2 other cameras at the same time.  So have lots to share and talk about, but going to take me a few days to sort it all through...

 

One of the things I wanted to see was what ZERO gain looked like and how crisp I could get by using the max FW(e-) . 

 

Here is an untouched stack of 30  60s  zero gain M31s. with my AT65  (420mm FL) and orion 2" LP filter no tweaking.   lots here to play with...

 

Al

 

M31 60sframesstack

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#117 alphatripleplus

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:15 PM

What happened to the colour,  Al?



#118 OleCuss

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:55 PM

I'm not the expert on this camera, but I'm seeing it as a very interesting one!

 

We're talking an amazing SNR1 (in the range of the IMX224) with a diagonal measurement of 21.6mm and 10.7MP?

 

And looking at the early experiences with the thing a slower focal ratios (which means less aberration!) I'm seeing images which are really quite good - and considering the time used to accumulate the data are really quite amazing!

 

Put all that into the 4:3 aspect ratio and you can make very good use of an appropriate light path as well.

 

Oh, and if there is no binning you could end up being able to crop down an image pretty nicely in order to frame things more to your liking.

 

Realistically, I'm going to be very happy with the promised 24FPS promised for a 10.7MP 4:3 sensor:  http://www.sony-semi...mx294cjk_e.html  If I can do ROI at a faster frame rate that would be awesome but I don't actually see that promised.

 

Give me the budget for the thing and I'll be very interested!



#119 bdyer22

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 03:57 PM

Some more captures this time using my newly acquired AT60ED F7

 

All captures at F7 using ASI294Pro (x2 bin, gain 300) on an AVX mount, no guiding. Note the coma around the outer parts of the frame. This is because I don't have the field flattener for the AT60 yet. All fast refractors suffer from field curvature hence a flattener is a must with larger sensors.

 

First up a single 30s unstacked exposure of M31.

 

attachicon.gifStack_1frames_30s.jpg

You got M110 too! :)



#120 A. Viegas

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:40 PM

What happened to the colour, Al?

Hi Errol

I just converted the stacked live sharpcap .fits to JPEG for posting. Did not do anything else. I have a lot of data to go through. Will investigate next couple of days. Also have a bunch of work stuff to do. So could be a bit slow


Oh. Alberic asked about frame rates at Raw8 vs raw16. I tested and got the same speeds. So don't think you will get any faster. But if you shoot jupiter at 320x200 ROI you can get 160fps which is plenty fast. And full frame at 20fps is not bad either.

Al

Edited by A. Viegas, 24 September 2017 - 05:41 PM.


#121 Ain Soph Aur

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:33 PM

Some more captures this time using my newly acquired AT60ED F7

 

Hiten, the AT60ED is f/6?



#122 Astrojedi

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:17 PM

Thanks Brandon. Yes, that is correct. The AT60ED is F6. I have corrected the posts to reflect that. I confused it with my 102mm ED which is F7.

 

Really loving it. Definitely punches above its weight even for visual. Has opened up many new uses for me and ensures my astro addiction is fulfilled everywhere.


Edited by Astrojedi, 24 September 2017 - 07:18 PM.

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#123 XS_Man

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:03 PM

Oh. Alberic asked about frame rates at Raw8 vs raw16. I tested and got the same speeds. So don't
think you will get any faster.

Thanks AL,

 

Are you absolutly sure that you have the same fps at RAW8 and RAW16 ? shocked.gif
Seems very strange, it's not possible that a 8 bit mode give the same results. You should have
a better fps as for example ASI 1600 and other cameras when using 8 bit mode.

ASI 1600 at 12 bits full frame : 15 fps
1280×960 : 47 fps

ASI 1600 at 10 bits full frame : 23 fps
1280×960 : 74 fps

 

Now I'm worried, because only 40 fps at 1920 x 1080, it's too slow for serious planetary
use with a 2017 generation sensor ! Hope that Sam will try to find a solution to upgrade
this crucial point. A fast 8 bit mode is necessary for me.

 


But if you shoot jupiter at 320x200 ROI you can get 160fps which is plenty fast.

 

With a 100 mm telescope, Yes.
With a 350 mm, no, you need more field of view. 1280x1024 is for me the minimum.

 


And full frame at 20fps is not bad either.

 

Yes, I agree, considering it's a 10 Mpixel sensor and USB 3.0 limitations.

 

Albéric


Edited by XS_Man, 25 September 2017 - 01:03 PM.


#124 A. Viegas

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:20 PM

 

Oh. Alberic asked about frame rates at Raw8 vs raw16. I tested and got the same speeds. So don't
think you will get any faster.

Thanks AL,

 

Are you absolutly sure that you have the same fps at RAW8 and RAW16 ? shocked.gif
Seems very strange, it's not possible that a 8 bit mode give the same results. You should have
a better fps as for example ASI 1600 and other cameras when using 8 bit mode.

ASI 1600 at 12 bits full frame : 15 fps
1280×960 : 47 fps

ASI 1600 at 10 bits full frame : 23 fps
1280×960 : 74 fps

 

Now I'm worried, because only 40 fps at 1920 x 1080, it's too slow for serious planetary
use with a 2017 generation sensor ! Hope that Sam will try to find a solution to upgrade
this crucial point. A fast 8 bit mode is necessary for me.

 

 

 

 

Maybe Hiten can try his beta 294  and see if he gets the same frame rate for Raw16 and Raw8.   I used my laptop, so maybe there is an issue with its USB3 but not sure.  Unfortunately I left the camera upstate and will not be able to perform any camera testing for the next two weeks... undecided.gif    .... but I did get some really good DSO results which I will post over the course of the next week



#125 Astrojedi

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:44 PM

 

Oh. Alberic asked about frame rates at Raw8 vs raw16. I tested and got the same speeds. So don't
think you will get any faster.

Thanks AL,

 

Are you absolutly sure that you have the same fps at RAW8 and RAW16 ? shocked.gif
Seems very strange, it's not possible that a 8 bit mode give the same results. You should have
a better fps as for example ASI 1600 and other cameras when using 8 bit mode.

ASI 1600 at 12 bits full frame : 15 fps
1280×960 : 47 fps

ASI 1600 at 10 bits full frame : 23 fps
1280×960 : 74 fps

 

Now I'm worried, because only 40 fps at 1920 x 1080, it's too slow for serious planetary
use with a 2017 generation sensor ! Hope that Sam will try to find a solution to upgrade
this crucial point. A fast 8 bit mode is necessary for me.

 


But if you shoot jupiter at 320x200 ROI you can get 160fps which is plenty fast.

 

With a 100 mm telescope, Yes.
With a 350 mm, no, you need more field of view. 1280x1024 is for me the minimum.

 


And full frame at 20fps is not bad either.

 

Yes, I agree, considering it's a 10 Mpixel sensor and USB 3.0 limitations.

 

Albéric

 

Alberic,

 

It is possible that ZWO as not fully optimized the drivers / control but it is also possible that this SoC due to its architecture/design is just not capable of the frame rates you are looking for. I will run some tests to see what frame rates I can achieve (but my system is much more modest vs. Al's)

 

I still feel you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole or said differently: I think the strength of this camera will be DSOs.

 

Why don't you just use a ASI290 mono for example for planetary imaging. It can deliver 170fps using 10bit mode at a resolution of 1936×1096 and 194fps at 1280x960 in 10 bit mode assuming you have a PC capable of handling that kind of throughput.

 

I also don't agree with your comment about the FoV not being enough for imaging Jupiter. Damian Peach quite successfully does planetary imaging with a ASI290MM and a C14 (http://www.damianpeach.com/best.htm) and he seems to have some idea about how to go about planetary imaging. : )

 

Hiten


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