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USB over Ethernet

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#1 Bloated Star

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:53 PM

I've always set up and broken down each session.  The setup has been quite near the house and I've been able to run a USB cable to it from the garage and run my imaging session from a somewhat warm environment. I've recently acquired Telegizmos covers for the scope and the pier and would like to move the setup to a better, somewhat more permanent, location about 75-100 feet from the house.  I use an Anker 7-port USB hub to which the mount, encoders, camera, guide camera, and focuser are attached.  My laptop has an ethernet port in addition to the USBs.  Here's the question, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance as I'm not familiar with ethernet systems.  What do I need to do/buy to connect my laptop with the USB hub  at this distance utilizing an ethernet cable?  This probably contains several questions.  Namely, is there a USB hub that lets you run an ethernet cable from the ethernet port on the laptop directly to the hub or is there some sort of conversion that has to occur for transmitting data via the ethernet cable?  What do I need to buy for this?



#2 vtornado

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:34 PM

I used to work for restaurant company which had a server in the back room, and had a usb bullseye scanner on the front counter (would read qr  codes).   The run length was too long for USB, so we plugged one end into a box which converted it to ethernet then another box under the counter converted it back to USB.   I will ping my buddies, and see what the box is called.



#3 vtornado

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:49 PM

Got it.

 

https://www.startech...rs/~USB2001EXTV

 

Kind of pricey.

 

I also see these,

 

https://sewelldirect...uperusbextender

 

I don't know if they work well?  Not dissing them, I just have no experience.

The first one definitely works and is very reliable.


Edited by vtornado, 14 November 2017 - 08:50 PM.


#4 Jim Davis

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:53 PM

Use an Icron Ranger. Great device for running USB over Cat 5 cable.

IMAG0143.jpg

 

2014-12-20_16-03-50_HDR.jpg

 

IMAG0153 small.jpg



#5 Bloated Star

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:12 PM

Thank you both very much. Does the Ikron Ranger have at least 5 USB ports? If not, one of the cheaper devices might be good to use in conjunction with my existing USB hub. In any event, these look like exactly what I need.

#6 Jim Davis

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:55 PM

Thank you both very much. Does the Ikron Ranger have at least 5 USB ports? If not, one of the cheaper devices might be good to use in conjunction with my existing USB hub. In any event, these look like exactly what I need.

The Icron Ranger comes in 2 models, 1 USB port or 4 USB port. We used the 1 port model, and added a powered USB device on the mount arm to power all the imaging devices.

 

1 port: http://www.icron.com...-0-ranger-2301/

 

4 port: http://www.icron.com...-0-ranger-2304/



#7 Bloated Star

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:21 PM

The 1-port looks to be just what I need. Thanks to both of you again.

#8 ccs_hello

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:29 AM

A simple search on this subforum yield this

https://www.cloudyni...-over-ethernet/



#9 ccs_hello

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:38 AM

Another

https://www.cloudyni...-cat5-extender/

 

(also check the link on post #4)



#10 Phil Sherman

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:02 AM

The Icron Ranger is a proven expensive USB over ethernet device. I recently purchased a single USB port extender at a lower cost that, with testing, has supported all of my astro gear at full USB2 speeds. It's an IOGEAR GUCE64. All of the other USB over ethernet devices I've seen in this price range work with USB2 devices but actualy transmit data at USB1.1 speeds.



#11 ccs_hello

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:05 AM

Direct from the vendor's webpage:

Please note, isochronous devices (such as webcams and audio) are not supported.



#12 Jim Davis

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:13 PM

Direct from the vendor's webpage:

Please note, isochronous devices (such as webcams and audio) are not supported.

You want isochronous support. Guide cameras and many planetary cameras require that. That is one of the reasons we went with the Icron Ranger, it supported it very well. It is also good to fairly low temperature, which we needed since it gets most of its use in the winter.



#13 CHAPSKINS

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:08 PM

Personally, USB over Ethernet, I wouldn't bother after my experience. I found the whole thing flakey to say the least, even using the expensive USB over Ethernet boxes.

 

I'd advise to get a computer at the mount and another computer in the house connected via Ethernet; far more stable than USB. 

 

.


Edited by CHAPSKINS, 15 November 2017 - 05:10 PM.


#14 Jim Davis

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:12 PM

Personally, USB over Ethernet, I wouldn't bother after my experience. I found the whole thing flakey to say the least, even using the expensive USB over Ethernet boxes.

 

I'd advise to get a computer at the mount and another computer in the house connected via Ethernet; far more stable than USB. 

 

.

Personally, in my experience the opposite is true. If you have the right equipment, USB over Cat 5 is the way to go. Remotely controlling a PC brings in a host of issues.



#15 CHAPSKINS

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:20 PM

As soon as you start putting any load on USB over Ethernet, the whole thing just falls over. Just running a DSLR was a pain in the head.

 

.



#16 Jim Davis

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:26 PM

As soon as you start putting any load on USB over Ethernet, the whole thing just falls over. Just running a DSLR was a pain in the head.

 

.

Not in my experience.



#17 ccs_hello

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:30 PM

General info: universal serial bus (USB) enjoys and suffers on its success at the same time.  There are so many variations and a few parameters that an emulated system cannot meet in all cases.

When people do not hit that snag, all is fine.  When you the unlucky jackpot, you'll really hate it.

For astro, there a few situations like that (e.g., many USB2.0 astro imagers, some applications not so forgiving on communication glitches, power hungry gears.)  As forum users, the common disclaimer YMMV should be used.

For a buyer of non-standard USB sanctioned product (e.g., USB emulation), I'd suggest contact seller to make sure money back guarantee is offered.  No one in this forum will pay another CNer for his/her loss.

 

 

Now TL;DR

 

Technical background:

(1) USB 2 has a transmission speed: High Speed, which is 480 Mbps.  Remember that an Ethernet 100 BasedT media will only handle 100 Mbps.

(2) USB has a data transfer mode called isochronous transfer mode.  In layman's term, it's called streaming.  It does not perform error correction and expects a good transmission system with close-to error-free and low.fixed latency.  Any error has to be recovered from application layer programming.

If one use regular USB sanctioned media, this situation seldom happen and only small buffer is used (except congested channel or poorly implemented USB Hub with rate-adapt.)  Most of the astro (imaging) application (if using astro imager) do not expect such situation to happen thus may hang if error occurs. An emulated USB transmission system does not have such luxury to do it right all the time and application can't handle the glitches thus will hang.

(3) A lot of USB high-speed isochronous devices are using Cypress EZUSB-FX2 device as its transmission engine which has a unique character: double USB enumeration.  A real USB can handle that but many emulated transmission systems are clueless.

(4) Also needs to support multiple USB end-points and multiple transmission flavors at the same time.

 

No one need to believe what I had stated (actually said the same thing over and over so many times that I am tied of it.)

Every time this topic showed/shows up in forumland, not so helpful debate just repeat over and over.

Just listen to other CN fellow users to hear their experiences, believe what you'd like to believe, spend your hard earned money and enjoy the hobby.

 

P.S. if checking ICRON website, you'll find different models will either say it supports isochronous transfer mode or it does not support isochronous mode.

 

Feel free to cut-n-paste my previous conditions (1) thru (4), ask the vendor they meet all four and willing to provide a written assurance with money back guarantee so you are covered.

 

Clear Skies!

 

ccs_hello


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#18 R Botero

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Posted Yesterday, 02:59 AM

Icron Ranger all the way! Have been using it for 3 yrs and not a single problem. I don’t keep a computer in my observatory. Everything flows through the Ranger into the house: CCD, guider, mount, dew heater control, roof and weather, etc. I have a 4-port unit.
Roberto

#19 Bloated Star

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Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM

Before I pull the trigger, heres where my ignorance of computer networking comes in. My laptop has an Ethernet port and I can connect a cable directly from it to the control box on my AP1100 mount, which also has an Ethernet port. It works like a charm. Is there such a thing as a USB hub or similar device that has an Ethernet port and that lets you run an Ethernet cable straight from the Ethernet port on the laptop to that hub, and which then connects via USB to my camera, etc. That sounds like what folks are doing in roundabout way by having an additional laptop at the pier. Unless there’s something I dont understand, which is usually the case, I don’t really need to have the transmitter end of the Icron setup. Again, I’m probably way off base.

Edited by Bloated Star, Yesterday, 07:07 PM.


#20 Jim Davis

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Posted Yesterday, 07:52 PM

The Icron Ranger I suggested uses Cat 5 LAN cable, but it is not using the Ethernet protocol. It just uses the same type of wire.

 

There are devices that transmit USB over a LAN. You plug the device into the USB port of your laptop, and the other cable into a Ethernet hub. The other end of the device plugs into another Ethernet port, and provides the USB back out. This is one of those type: http://www.icron.com...ger-2301ge-lan/

 

I know of no device that works like you are describing. The extenders above have USB on both ends, and electronics and wires in the middle that emulate the cable connection. What most people do is control the mount by USB or USB to serial over the same USB connection.



#21 Bloated Star

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Posted Yesterday, 08:07 PM

That answers my question precisely. Thank you for the quick response!

#22 ccs_hello

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Posted Yesterday, 09:16 PM

Quote from post #19

what folks are doing in roundabout way by having an additional laptop at the pier.

 

This is what many folks in CN will suggest.

The mount side computer is the working computer (can be a tiny stick or "USFF box factor PC" such as Intel NUC.)

It performs all the control functions all right besides the mount/OTA/observatory.

 

What the end user use a distance away (say in a living room) is just a simple "Remote Display" device.

It can be a simple and inexpensive PC.

 

What goes in between is either a wired Ethernet IP network or wireless Ethernet (e.g., WiFi)  <-- if distance permits

and what's running in between the mount-side computer and your "viewing" computer is a method to

"remotely pull the display screen, keyboard, and mouse" to your end.   (Technically it's VNC or RDP: remote desktop protocol.)

RDP or VNC protocols are robust, low bandwidth consuming, and fall under the "just work" category.

 

Two different fashions, have their own pros and cons.

 

Clear Skies!

 

ccs_hello. 



#23 Bloated Star

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Posted Yesterday, 10:07 PM

Thanks again. It looks like I have two options. I’m going to read all this several times to make sure I understand it before I decide. I wish I knew as much about this as you guys!

#24 R Botero

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Posted Today, 08:07 AM

For reference, this is the unit I have:  http://www.icron.com...0-rg2304ge-lan/


Edited by R Botero, Today, 08:08 AM.



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