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Lunt Engineering HDC 13mm 100°: it's here! (well, almost...)

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#1 Aeternam

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 05:02 AM

I've been very happy with my Lunt eyepieces and I've been waiting for the rumored 13mm for a long time. It looks like it's finally here: http://www.apm-teles...tml?info=362092

 

If it is as good as the 9mm it will give the 13mm Ethos a run for its money. popcorn.gif

 

Expected delivery is in 2-3 months. Should give those pesky clouds ample time to shove off...


Edited by Aeternam, 29 November 2017 - 05:06 AM.


#2 Starman1

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 05:54 PM

Yes, I've heard February delivery.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.



#3 Marcsabb

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 03:57 AM

If it is as good as the 9mm it will give the 13mm Ethos a run for its money. popcorn.gif

This. It has become my favorite eyepiece to use when I want to explore the lunar landscape. February can't come soon enough!


Edited by Marcsabb, 11 December 2017 - 03:57 AM.


#4 Gyna

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 07:04 PM

Ciao Marco,

how do you judge the sharpness, contrast, light scatter and easy of view of the Lunt 9mm 100° versus your TS UWAN 7mm and 4mm? I have the UWAN 4mm and I'm thinking about the Lunt 9mm... despite it is very very big for binocular use...

 

Marco


Edited by Gyna, 12 December 2017 - 07:27 PM.


#5 Starman1

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 08:11 PM

None of those characteristics can be compared when the focal lengths are so different.

The sharpness of the 4mm and 7mm are more affected by seeing.

The contrast is always seemingly better at higher powers because the background darkens with magnification.

And light scatter will be apparently affected by the magnification as well (lower power giving a brighter background).

The only effective way to answer your question about the 9mm is to compare it to another 9mm, like the Explore Scientific, for instance.



#6 Marcsabb

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 01:41 AM

Ciao Marco,

how do you judge the sharpness, contrast, light scatter and easy of view of the Lunt 9mm 100° versus your TS UWAN 7mm and 4mm? I have the UWAN 4mm and I'm thinking about the Lunt 9mm... despite it is very very big for binocular use...

 

Marco

As said by Starman1, it's a non-comparison. What I can tell you is that they possibly originate from the same firm (the new water proofed TS UWA and the Lunt XWA) as many construction details are all too similar. The glass is equally good with effective coatings and no internal reflections whatsoever. It looks that whoever is building them know their craft well and they don't cut too many corners on construction or materials. Only the external grip rubber feels a bit too 'cheap'.

 

As for the design itself, the 4mm is very good, the 7mm on the other side, left me a bit dissatisfied and I sold it soon after getting in. The 9mm XWA however is in another league. Both design and execution are top notch. All that is said about it being on the same level of performance of the Ethos are possibly true, so I've high hopes about the 13mm. I hope APM doesn't run out of them too soon. This is one of the rare cases in which I would be tempted to pre-order without listening to other people's feedback.


Edited by Marcsabb, 13 December 2017 - 01:42 AM.


#7 Gyna

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:07 AM

Starman1, Marco, thank you for the infos,

obviously different focal lenghts but I would to know the perceived quality of Lunt 9mm respect 82° UWAN. Marco, the wide field of view of the Lunt 9mm is easy to get at once without moving your eye or it is a bit tricky like most of 82° eyepieces? Kidney Bean effect on daytime use? In your test of Lunt 9mm on Cloudynights you criticized a bit the sharpness of Lunt 9mm, do you still think the same after more use?

 

Marco



#8 Starman1

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

Marco,

Any eyepiece with a field wider than about 60-65° requires moving the head and looking through the eyepiece at an angle to look directly at the edge.

You don't have to look directly at the edge.  Any normal vision will see the field stop in one's peripheral vision when looking at the center of the field.

It depends how you want to use the eyepiece.  Is the outer field for "context" and "surroundings", or is it part of the field you want to look at directly.

Either is possible, but one means moving the head around a lot more.



#9 Gyna

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 05:48 PM

Don,

as you could teach to me, some eyepiece are described by many users on this forum to have a 'presentation' more friendly to the eye, that requires less mouvement of the head to look at the peripheral area of field of view (like Baader morpheus or ES 92° eyepieces). I am only trying to understand if the Lunt HDC eyepieces are more similar to the ES82°'s presentation or more similar to Morpheus's or ES92°'s presentation of field of view.

Thank you for your comments.

 

Marco



#10 Starman1

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 06:44 PM

To clarify, some widefield eyepieces have more spherical aberration of the exit pupil than others.

See: https://www.handprin...O/ae4.html#SAEP

This is an issue which grows less objectionable with a smaller focal length, so it predominantly complained about in longer focal length widefields.

It can definitely make positioning the eye difficult, even when using the eyepiece mostly in the center of the field.

And different brands have more than others.

 

But human vision has about a 5° field of greatest acuity.  We use this to examine details.

We have a 30° field of "greatest attention" and decent quality vision.

And we have up to a 140° field in the right-left direction for out peripheral vision, which is of low acuity.

 

So picture your vision like a spotlight on a stage in a 100° eyepiece.  You can move the spotlight all around all over the stage (field) and look with high acuity

anywhere in the field.  But to look at the edge of a 100° field pretty much means you'll be looking through the glass at a sharp angle.

You can't simply go to the left to look right, as you would with a porthole because then you move the pupil of your eye away from the exit pupil of the eyepiece.

So the normal technique, even if it is unconscious, is to keep the pupil of your eye in place and roll the head to the side to look straight at the edge with the center of your vision.

 

To be real about it, you do this on a 50° eyepiece as well, but the head movement is small enough you aren't aware of it.

And if you are looking at only the center 30° of field, your head can stay still and you can simply move your eye a tiny bit without losing the exit pupil.

And this is also true of the 76° Baader Morpheus and 92° Explore Scientific.  If you want to look at the edge with direct vision, you're going to roll the head over to do it.

Obviously, the narrower the field, the less movement, of course.

 

That's true with 100° eyepieces as well.  If you only look at the center 1/3 of the field with direct vision and all the rest of the field is merely contextual and in your peripheral vision,

then you can use the eyepiece exactly as you would a 50° eyepiece.  But if you do want to "look over there" and "look down there" and "look up there", then you need to move the field of best visual acuity

to look at the new place in the field, and that will require rolling your head to look there.

 

I had used 82° eyepieces for almost 25 years when I got my first 100° eyepiece, so I didn't notice there was anything particularly unusual about using a 100° eyepiece--it merely had more field.

So I never was aware of how difficult they were to use for some people until I started reading comments on CN and other forums.

Most of the people who have difficulties are moving from 30-60° eyepieces straight to 100°, and since the techniques of usage are different, I can totally understand the issues.

However, it shouldn't take long to accommodate to the 100° field and the use of that wide an eyepiece.

 

But is the point of a 100° eyepiece to look straight at the edge of the field?  I had to think about it, but I rarely look directly at the edge.  My gaze seems to occupy the center 75% of the field

and it is my peripheral vision that becomes aware of the edge.  The exception to that is watching a planet drift across a 110° field at 500x, where I may watch the planet from just inside one edge to just inside the other.


Edited by Starman1, 14 December 2017 - 06:45 PM.

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#11 rowdy388

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 07:13 PM

Don,

as you could teach to me, some eyepiece are described by many users on this forum to have a 'presentation' more friendly to the eye, that requires less mouvement of the head to look at the peripheral area of field of view (like Baader morpheus or ES 92° eyepieces). I am only trying to understand if the Lunt HDC eyepieces are more similar to the ES82°'s presentation or more similar to Morpheus's or ES92°'s presentation of field of view.

Thank you for your comments.

 

Marco

I'm not Don but I own all the above mentioned eyepieces. The Lunt HDC's are much 

more like the Ethos/ ES100 eyepieces than the Morpheus/ ES92's.  You do have to

move your head a bit to see the entire field.

 

I find them all comfortable to use. I would not compare the Lunt's to ES82's at all. As far as my 

favorite ES: the 92's are my favorite, followed by the 100's, followed by the 68's, and

the 82's last, not that I dislike them.  Haven't tried the 62 versions.



#12 Gyna

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 07:29 PM

Don,

thanks for your explanations, very interesting.

 

Dave,

thank you for your reply, as owner of ES82 14mm and 6,7mm I am very courious about your statment: 'I would not compare the Lunt's to ES82's at all'. Can you tell me more on this?

 

Marco



#13 MitchAlsup

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 12:32 AM

To clarify, some widefield eyepieces have more spherical aberration of the exit pupil than others.

See: https://www.handprin...O/ae4.html#SAEP

This is an issue which grows less objectionable with a smaller focal length, so it predominantly complained about in longer focal length widefields.

Short focal length EPs have small Exit Pupils--these small exit pupils fit in the <entrance pupil> of your eye, meaning your eye has become insensitive to SAEP.

 

It is only when the eye's pupil does not admit all the light bundles from the entire FoV that one can 'see' SAEP.



#14 Starman1

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 02:11 AM

Mitch,

Not exactly. 

The original Nagler 13mm yielded a 2.2mm exit pupil in my scope of the era, but the SAEP was still noticeable and annoying.

It's probably related to the percentage of your pupil covered by the exit pupil, but it's noticeable when the exit pupil is less than 1/2 of your eye's pupil diameter.

It might also be related to the spread in the exit pupil as well.



#15 Aeternam

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:08 AM

I just took delivery of mine!

 

Build quality is the same as for its siblings -- excellent. It lies between the 5mm and the 9mm in length, it is quite heavy. The diameter is somewhere between the 20mm and the 9mm. Foldable eyecup, just as with the other Lunts. You'll notice on the picture that they now also include a 1.25" cap; nice if you need it. Princess Zelda on the other hand is NOT included.

 

The only visible difference between this new 13mm and the older Lunts is that it now says APM telescopes on the side.

 

Can't wait for clear skies!

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#16 R_Huntzberry

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:38 PM

Mine is on the way...



#17 rowdy388

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 10:51 PM

Don,

thanks for your explanations, very interesting.

 

Dave,

thank you for your reply, as owner of ES82 14mm and 6,7mm I am very courious about your statment: 'I would not compare the Lunt's to ES82's at all'. Can you tell me more on this?

 

Marco

Sorry it took so long to reply. I just came back to this thread. The Lunt HDC eyepieces 

have a 100 degree field of view and compare directly to the Ethos and ES100 series

and not the ES82's. I wouldn't compare the ES100's to ES82's either.  For the record

I also find both Lunt HDC and ES100 eyepieces more comfortable than ES82's.



#18 Gyna

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 12:49 PM

 

Don,

thanks for your explanations, very interesting.

 

Dave,

thank you for your reply, as owner of ES82 14mm and 6,7mm I am very courious about your statment: 'I would not compare the Lunt's to ES82's at all'. Can you tell me more on this?

 

Marco

Sorry it took so long to reply. I just came back to this thread. The Lunt HDC eyepieces 

have a 100 degree field of view and compare directly to the Ethos and ES100 series

and not the ES82's. I wouldn't compare the ES100's to ES82's either.  For the record

I also find both Lunt HDC and ES100 eyepieces more comfortable than ES82's.

 

Thank you Dave!

 

Marco



#19 cpper

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 02:23 PM

Got any updates, OP ?



#20 rowdy388

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 02:37 PM

I'm hoping to see the Lunt/ APM eyepieces at NEAF in a few weeks. Last year I

didn't see anyone looking at the Lunt eyepieces. Now that the secret is out I expect

to see a lot more interest. 


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#21 havasman

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 04:14 PM

And if they are marked down from their already reasonable price they'll likely fly off the shelf.



#22 Shneor

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 01:35 AM

Marco,

Any eyepiece with a field wider than about 60-65° requires moving the head and looking through the eyepiece at an angle to look directly at the edge.

I do not find this statement to be true. In fact, although it has taken a couple of years, I can see edge-to-edge in my 9mm ES 120 (really 138*) without moving my head or looking through the eyepiece at an angle.



#23 Starman1

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:22 AM

LOL.

To look directly at the edge of a 120° eyepiece with foveal vision means you are looking through the eyepiece at a 60° angle.

If you hold your pupil at the exit pupil of the eyepiece, you MUST roll your head over to look, since no one can look 60° off axis with direct vision

without moving the head.

If you tried, your pupil would move away from the exit pupil of the eyepiece.

 

Now, you don't have to move the head or even change the focus of your glance to look at the edge with peripheral vision.

If you have normal vision, you can look at the center and see the edge in your peripheral vision.

 

I was talking about looking at the edge with foveal, direct, vision, which is about 5° wide

But even if you are looking at the edge with the field of "most noticability" (about 30°), you must still look through the eyepiece at at least a 30° angle and probably more.

Sure, you don't notice you're doing it because using wide fields probably is second nature to you now, but you ARE looking through the eyepiece at an angle,

and it is significant.


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#24 MitchAlsup

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:04 PM

 

Marco,

Any eyepiece with a field wider than about 60-65° requires moving the head and looking through the eyepiece at an angle to look directly at the edge.

I do not find this statement to be true. In fact, although it has taken a couple of years, I can see edge-to-edge in my 9mm ES 120 (really 138*) without moving my head or looking through the eyepiece at an angle.

I find I can do this too. Head still, ring of fire to ring of fire (L-R) but not quite 100º T to B.



#25 Starman1

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:27 PM

By definition, if you are looking directly at the edge, you are looking through the eyepiece at an angle unless you are talking about peripheral vision.

with 138°, you are looking 69° off axis.  That is simply impossible unless you tilt the head and look through the eyepiece at an angle.

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