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Get an APO and Ignore the Old Scopes?

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#1 Bomber Bob

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

Kurt's post --> https://www.cloudyni...12#entry8246927 --> got me wondering:  When you get an APO, do you tend to ignore your old scopes?

 

The Meade S5000 80/480 triplet couldn't compete with my Royal 76mm refractors, and it's gone.  The 1995 Vixen 80/640 fluorite does do well against them.  Come Monday, I'll have a brand new APM ED 152/1200 APO.  I don't expect it to have the same image quality as the fluorite, but if it lives up to the reviews, will it put my 6" reflectors & 4" refractors on the back-burner?  Right now, I don't think so, but this is new territory.  My 6" Dynascope is almost a grab & go, and gives excellent views.  The 6" F4 Edmund RFT is crazy lite on the VersaGo.  The Dakin 4 rides good enough on a Polaris for casual use, but it needs the heftier Edmund or Meade GEMs for high-power observing.  And, my Edmund 4" F15 cannot go on anything lighter than its original mount.  The APM 152 is in the same weight class as the 6" Tinsley Cass, but for an old refractor guy, having that much aperture is gonna be nirvana -- and mighty tempting on clear winter nights...


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#2 starman876

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 02:41 PM

First I would not use the Meade triplet as a yard stick to measure performance of other scopes.  The Vixen Fluorite is a first class scope and will do well compared to any scope in its size.  I am sure you will be very happy with the APM 152. Glad  you bought it.  I would DPAC the scope and keep APM honest.  If it does not perform as expected I would return it until they send you a scope that does.  Now you have the tools to measure performance please us it and get the best bang for your buck that is possible.


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#3 levidog2

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 02:47 PM

Well when you get ready to dump those old beaters, hehehe, give me a call I'll be happy to take them off your hands.grin.gif 


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#4 Bomber Bob

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:00 PM

I would DPAC the scope and keep APM honest.

 

Most definitely!

 

I mentioned my scopes, but my question is general in nature, as others have posted along the lines of, Why haul out the old rig when the new one performs as well and is easier to use?   If that's the case for y'all, do those old scopes become static displays...  (though hopefully NEVER floor lamps!)

 

Dude!  I've already sold a bunch of old beaters!   If I trim too much more, it's gonna start really hurting...  Or, will it?   Will these APOs have me rethinking the whole collection?

 

Some of y'all have already gone through this process:  You get that Big APO, and you use your Classics less & less -- at least that's what I've been reading.  In my case, it takes < 5 minutes to un-case the Vixen, pop it on the Polaris, and start observing.  The 6" APO won't be that easy, but compared to the Tinsley... 


Edited by Bomber Bob, 02 December 2017 - 03:04 PM.

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#5 Astrojensen

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:02 PM

You can get old apochromats, you know... Just sayin'. wink.gif

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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#6 Astrojensen

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:04 PM

BTW, just taking a break from viewing the Moon between sucker holes with my 1904 85mm Zeiss A apochromat. grin.gif

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark 


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#7 Garyth64

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:06 PM

"Why haul out the old rig when the new one performs as well and is easier to use?"

 

I would like to change that to,

 

"Why haul out the new rig when the old one performs as well and is easier to use?"


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#8 Bomber Bob

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:07 PM

You can get old apochromats, you know... Just sayin'. wink.gif

 

 

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

I do, and I sorta did with the 1995 Vixen.  I was gonna give myself another 6-8 weeks for the Big APO, and see if any vintage models came up for sale...  But APM had that Violet Friday deal, and I just couldn't resist -- saved a bunch of $$$$ on the 152.

 

I would like to change that to,

"Why haul out the new rig when the old one performs as well and is easier to use?"

 

True.  Getting the Dynascope & the Mizar on Polaris mounts with battery drives made both highly portable -- I can tote either around the back yard without injury!


Edited by Bomber Bob, 02 December 2017 - 03:17 PM.

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#9 rolo

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:17 PM

As long as you enjoy them and have no need to sell them keep em. The APM is FPL51 and won't have the color correction of the Vixen fluorite but its an awesome scope and at f/8 should satisfy your planetary viewing. I doubt you'll have any quality or performance issues with it. Own for while and wait till Jupiter is in a favorable position for good observations. 

Some of the classics are irreplaceable so keep that in mind when and and if you sell some.


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#10 Bomber Bob

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:20 PM

Own for while and wait till Jupiter is in a favorable position for good observations.

 

Yeah, the timing isn't great.  I'll be chomping at the bit until Jupiter returns.



#11 Esso2112

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:30 PM

I think both have a place and a use.  i started with a Super Polaris C8 a short time (30 yrs) ago (Still have it, but don't use it). My first refractor was a 5" Meade achromat (long gone) and then jumped into the Tak flourites, eventually ending up with my FS-152.  Relatively recently, I started getting into the classics, which I would sneak my FCT-100 into although it's not 25 years old yet.  True, the APO's are fantastic visually, but I have used them more for imaging.  

 

Regarding ease of set-up, the FS-152 is about as difficult to set up as the 4" Unitron. The FCT-100 is easier, but true to Tak form, is built like a tank and is relatively heavy for its size. It was too heavy for an EM-11 mount (little shakes) so I got a Mach 1 for it.  The EM-11 actually works really with the 3" refractors (Swift and Tasco) and is the quickest to set up.  

 

The issue I see between the APO's and the vintage scopes is the focal length.  The FCT-100 has a foal length of 640mm compared to 1500mm with the Unitron.  I can use longer eyepieces for a more comfortable viewing experience with the classic vs the APO. For wide fields, the FCT-100 is great, but I have to Barlow it or use really short fl eyepieces for high mag viewing.  

 

Bottom line for me, visual with the classics and imaging with the APO's.  Since getting into the classics, I have done way more visual observations than I have in the past.  I also like tinkering on them.  For really fant fuzzies, I pull out the EdgeHD 14" and am always impressed by its optics, but it really only gets used at the Texas Star Party.  It takes way to long to set up and cool down. 


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#12 Bomber Bob

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:41 PM

Bottom line for me, visual with the classics and imaging with the APO's.

 

Thank You!  That's what I was thinking before I started buying APOs.  I'm hoping the 152 will change my mind about that -- especially for planetary.



#13 CHASLX200

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:46 PM

I would keep the older scopes.  No way i am paying big money for a big APO unless it is a steal to flip.


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#14 starman876

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:25 PM

I have had a 6" AP for a long time.   It is not the best AP triplet available, but it sure has beat a lot of scopes along the way and that is why i still have it.  There have not been many scopes over the tears I have kept.  Only the ones that could edge out or were the equal of the current scopes I kept. That is not saying the scopes I sold were not any good. They were all very good scopes. Some I wish I had kept, but I only have so much room.   Some I sold because it was just too much hassle to bring them in and out of the house.   

 

JW you will be glad you got a 6" APO.  They are awesome scopes and will give you a lot of pleasure.   There is something about a flat field scope that provides pin point stars from edge to edge. seeing Jupiters moons as nice round little discs.   Also, the pure velvet black background that only a good refractor will show you.  There have been times I have just looked at the black background for a while.  


Edited by starman876, 02 December 2017 - 04:25 PM.

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#15 Astrojensen

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:27 PM

 

The issue I see between the APO's and the vintage scopes is the focal length.  The FCT-100 has a foal length of 640mm compared to 1500mm with the Unitron.  I can use longer eyepieces for a more comfortable viewing experience with the classic vs the APO. For wide fields, the FCT-100 is great, but I have to Barlow it or use really short fl eyepieces for high mag viewing.

Please don't make the assumption that an apochromat is automatically *always* short focus, just because it can be, because it isn't. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark 


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#16 starman876

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:36 PM

from most reports that I have read that an F8 APO has the same color correction as an F25 achromat.  Well a triplet will do that.   I would rather use an F8 scope compared to a F25 6" scope. 


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#17 Richard Whalen

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:02 PM

Depends on the 6" f8 apo, some are a lot better, some are worse.

from most reports that I have read that an F8 APO has the same color correction as an F25 achromat.  Well a triplet will do that.   I would rather use an F8 scope compared to a F25 6" scope. 



#18 starman876

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:05 PM

 

Depends on the 6" f8 apo, some are a lot better, some are worse.

from most reports that I have read that an F8 APO has the same color correction as an F25 achromat.  Well a triplet will do that.   I would rather use an F8 scope compared to a F25 6" scope. 

 

that was in regard to an Astro Physics.  



#19 CHASLX200

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:07 PM

 

Depends on the 6" f8 apo, some are a lot better, some are worse.

from most reports that I have read that an F8 APO has the same color correction as an F25 achromat.  Well a triplet will do that.   I would rather use an F8 scope compared to a F25 6" scope. 

 

My 6" AP was not that great if you remember.



#20 BillShakes

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:19 PM

I find I use all my scopes, old and new, just at different times, for different purposes.  It may be that the best ease-of-use vs. performance trade off favors the new - but I enjoy the old for many reasons, nostalgia sure, but for the visual experience as well.  I find its a similar thing comparing big to small.  I enjoy my 40mm f20 as much as my C8 and spend time with both testing their limits - seems I’m always trying to see that next dimmest object, with whatever scope I’m using.  Something is always “just out of reach” at any aperture or age of scope.  It’s very satisfying to find the old scopes often outperform the new.  


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#21 starman876

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:20 PM

 

 

Depends on the 6" f8 apo, some are a lot better, some are worse.

from most reports that I have read that an F8 APO has the same color correction as an F25 achromat.  Well a triplet will do that.   I would rather use an F8 scope compared to a F25 6" scope. 

 

My 6" AP was not that great if you remember.

 

I never looked through it so I could not comment.



#22 CHASLX200

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:58 PM

 

 

 

Depends on the 6" f8 apo, some are a lot better, some are worse.

from most reports that I have read that an F8 APO has the same color correction as an F25 achromat.  Well a triplet will do that.   I would rather use an F8 scope compared to a F25 6" scope. 

 

My 6" AP was not that great if you remember.

 

I never looked through it so I could not comment.

 

Not AP's fault. It was a older blue tube 6" F/9 i got in 1999 for $1500.  It had some wedge.



#23 starman876

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 07:01 PM

wedge?



#24 CHASLX200

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 07:08 PM

wedge?

Lens was tilted from true axis.  I had taken apart the scope and had a body shop paint the tube white.  I am sure if i sent the scope back to AP they could have made it like it new. 



#25 Stew44

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 07:28 PM

As has already been said, it's imaging versus visual to a large degree.  I've had some great apos from 178mm down to 80mm.  Currently have a Gran Tourismo but don't plan on keeping it.  I don't get excited by imaging.  I am a visual observer.  I primarily use an AP Star 12ED 120mm doublet at f/8.5.  The perfect refractor for where I live and mostly a planetary bent.  And it keeps me from having twice to three times the dollars invested in a fine AP or Tak APO doublet or triplet. I just moved my 80mm TMB APO triplet on to someone else who is imaging with it.  With a flattener it will be a great imaging tool.  In its place I'm getting up to speed with a semi-APO 80mm f/6.25 WO that has a great DPAC test, but some noticeable color that I'll explore dealing with.  Of course about a quarter of the cost of the TMB.  I'm in the wonderful stage where I am enjoying my Classics more than ever, and last had the Star out for the eclipse.  The long focal length scopes give me everything I could ask, as the keepers truly have fine optics.  Aperture is the only weak spot as I don't have any of the 5" and 6" Jaegers many of you have.  So when the planets are positioned well, the AP is coming out when seeing is particularly good.  Its use at the expense of the classics could change a little as I found it's now going to be possible to add an FT two speed focuser upgrade to the Star for a reasonable cost.   But now that I've gotten to know a lot of my classics a lot better, I doubt I will ever ignore them again.  Simply said, they are a lot of fun and very rewarding to use, however I'll be using most of the OTAs on modern mounts.

 

Congrats JW, and I agree on your choice of aperture, focal ratio and maker.  Markus Ludes has always done very well by me and puts out a very fine product at the high end.  Can't wait to hear about first light.


Edited by Stew44, 02 December 2017 - 07:57 PM.

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