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Discussed before, but just a thought on auctions and ads...

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#1 shredder1656

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:15 PM

I have mixed feelings on the thread in question, the "Craigslist, ebay, etc, etc..." thread.  I do enjoy seeing the different offerings around the country.  But, in the past there have been auctions or ads that I have discovered before they were posted in the thread.  The chance of getting a fair to great deal looked promising, but even though the auction had bids in place, someone felt the need to post the link.  There is no way to determine if it was the cause, or a simple correlation, but what looked to be a nice ending, concluded with a loss to me and an over-priced deal after I saw the link on the thread.  

 

I just wonder if it would not be a good idea to, once an auction is discovered, check to see if there is anyone bidding, and if there are already bids in place, avoid posting the link.  Chances are, it is a member.  If you were bidding, you would want it to be kept quiet.  If a person wants to get the word out to other members that they know might be interested, there is always PM.  Why post every ad or auction that looks good, but you personally cannot pursue?  It allows folks that aren't really even looking to toss in a "let's see what sticks to the wall" bid, and run up the price when they have no real intention of buying.  Clearly with a CL ad, there is no way to know if another member is pursuing it, but with an auction, keeping it to yourself for a bit isn't a bad thing.  With a CL ad, though, if you are aware of another member's stomping grounds, shoot them a PM before dumping the chum in the water.   

 

Posting the great deal CL ads before pm'ng members that are actively looking, also allows those tortured souls that are compelled to save the world by educating the willfully ignorant seller(s) to discover that there is another student in need of their brand of curriculum.   These teachers see someone asking less than a scope might be worth, and can't help but call someone across the country and encourage them to believe that they are selling a gold mine.  I wonder if they would be so kind if the seller was in their neighborhood.  

 

I am not involved in any of the currently affected auctions, and have not incurred any damage presently.  It is just an observation, and one of the current threads here brought it to my attention again.  Maybe everyone follows a similar m.o., in avoiding exposing deals to the public, but if not, I think it is worth considering.  

 

Just my two pesos.


Edited by shredder1656, 13 January 2018 - 04:15 AM.

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#2 Geo31

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:37 PM

BeatingADeadHorse.gif


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#3 Kokatha man

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:42 PM

It's a vexed question shredder - when I purchased the Royal Astro 4" f10 in Melbourne for $75US at Christmas (more correctly, my son Rafe purchased it as a late birthday present) I have to admit I was quite secretive about it if you check my thread at the time... (insert sneaky character icon!)

 

I knew they were "raries" & Uncle Milt actually said privately to me he "would buy it in a heart-beat sight unseen" if it were him when I told him about it: my sneakiness was because I knew that even though the "market" is much less here in Oz there would probably be some people interested & for that matter at that price, even with shipping to the US for instance costing maybe $200-$300 additional, perhaps it might even attract international buyers...& of course I'd spoken to the seller & as it was a "Buy Now" listing I could have it if we agreed on a figure.

 

I guess that means I'm morally on the side of letting the market act as it possibly ought to which also includes your concept of not "cruelling" someone's possible interest & prior negotiating...but then again letting fellow aficionados know about something for them to have a chance is a good community act - although I wonder how many postings in that thread would be made if the poster found something that they really coveted themselves, nasty cynic that I can be at times! lol.gif

 

Probably my thoughts aren't terribly relevant full-stop because to me it is almost completely academic, as are many of the CN classifies, me living overseas - in fact over here I have numerous AA items I don't need/want that sell like hot-cakes on the CN classifieds, but cannot see any point in advertising them on it... wink.gif


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#4 shredder1656

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:05 PM

Yes, it is beating a dead horse, but sometimes beating it is the only thing you can do.  :)

 

I am pretty sure if the shoe was on the other foot, Kokatha man, you are right.  The thread would have far fewer links posted.  That is more to my point.  Think of the unintended consequences of your actions.  Unless, of course, that is their intention.  Kind of like the morbid controlling ex that says, "if I can't have her/him, nobody will", or in this case, "they can have it, but they will hafta pay through the nose, since I can't have it".  LOL

 

I realize that trying to layout an argument for why the thread probably hurts more than helps is sort of like peeing into the wind, or trying to bite your own face.  On one hand it might give some relief, but it gets all over you, and on the other hand it ain't possible.  

 

Auctions

 

​1​.  If there are bids in place, don't link it.

 

2. If there are no bids, privately tell your closest friend.  

 

3. If they don't want it, you don't want it, and there are still no bids...MAYBE post it.  Nah...go ahead and post it.  

 

CL ads

 

​1​.  If you don't want it, privately check with your closest friend(s).

 

2.  If neither or none of you want it, check the geographic locations of members that are close to the ad.

 

3.  Finally, go ahead and post it.  

 

For killer deals, and unheard of low prices

 

​1.  Have an opinion.

 

2.  Keep it to yourself, unless you are buying it.  

 

3.  If you are a buyer, listen to your conscience.  Treat them like you would want your grandmother treated.  


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#5 starman876

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:09 PM

I have mixed feelings on the thread in question, the "Craigslist, ebay, etc, etc..." thread.  I do enjoy seeing the different offerings around the country.  But, in the past there have been auctions or ads that I have discovered before they were posted in the thread.  The chance of getting a fair to great deal looked promising, but even though the auction had bids in place, someone felt the need to post the link.  There is no way to determine if it was the cause, or a simple correlation, but what looked to be a nice ending, concluded with a loss to me and an over-priced deal after I saw the link on the thread.  

 

I just wonder if it would not be a good idea to, once an auction is discovered, check to see if there is anyone bidding, and if there are already bids in place, avoid posting the link.  Chances are, it is a member.  If you were bidding, you would want it to be kept quiet.  If a person wants to get the word out to other members that they know might be interested, there is always PM.  Why post every ad or auction that looks good, but you personally cannot pursue?  It allows folks that aren't really even looking to toss in a "let's see what sticks to the wall" bid, and run up the price when they have no real intention of buying.  Clearly with a CL ad, there is no way to know if another member is pursuing it, but with an auction, keeping it to yourself for a bit isn't a bad thing.  With a CL ad, though, if you are aware of another member's stomping grounds, shoot them a PM before dumping the chum in the water.   

 

Posting the great deal CL ads before pm'ng members that are actively looking, also allows those tortured souls that are compelled to save the world by educating the willfully ignorant seller(s) to discover that there is another student in need of their brand of curriculum.   These teachers see someone asking less than a scope might be worth, and can't help but call someone across the country and encourage them to believe that they are selling a gold mine.  I wonder if they would be so kind if the seller was in their neighborhood.  

 

I am not involved in any of the currently affected auctions, and have not incurred any damage presently.  It is just an observation, and one of the current threads here brought it to my attention again.  Maybe everyone follows a similar m.o., in avoiding exposing deals to the public, but if not, I think it is worth considering.  

 

Just my two pesos.

This has been debated many times.  For some reason no one wants to hear it.  Someone will complain about these posts and all this will vanish.  I wish I could present a vidoe of all the deals that went sour because of this thread.  Many times while I was picking an item up locally the person told me that there were people calling about the scope.  from their description I could tell they were people from this forum.  There are a lot of sharks in this forum.  They will snatch the meat right out of your mouth if given the chance.


Edited by starman876, 12 January 2018 - 08:10 PM.

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#6 kellyvictoria

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:10 PM

or just mind your own business and move on... it's called get a life...

unless of course it is Eagle Optics with a closeout sale....

 

 

but a lesson to be learned for young and old... " lose lips sink ships" and when I personally forget that lesson... which I very often do

I prefer to think of it as "I may have just dodged a bullet"... "I will surely be better off without that possession" "patience" it pays off every time... 

vk


Edited by kellyvictoria, 12 January 2018 - 08:22 PM.

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#7 Kokatha man

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:15 PM

 

  That is more to my point.  Think of the unintended consequences of your actions. 

I live in hope shredder, & I meet enough good people to maintain this crazy optimism that has carried me through nearly 70 years now...but self-awareness is in shorter supply than folks actually think it is a lot of the time...although I constantly try to remind myself that when I see it lacking in others to re-check my own & realise we are all different: I often fail however..! lol.gif


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#8 shredder1656

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:18 PM

Another way to put it a little more concisely...

 

Publicly post any and ALL deals that YOU so desire, but . . . ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO BUY IT YOURSELF.  :)  


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#9 Kokatha man

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:19 PM

Another way to put it a little more concisely...

 

Publicly post any and ALL deals that YOU so desire, but . . . ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO BUY IT YOURSELF.  smile.gif

Stop it shredder - this is too much..! :rofl:


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#10 shredder1656

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:19 PM

 

 

  That is more to my point.  Think of the unintended consequences of your actions. 

I live in hope shredder, & I meet enough good people to maintain this crazy optimism that has carried me through nearly 70 years now...but self-awareness is in shorter supply than folks actually think it is a lot of the time...although I constantly try to remind myself that when I see it lacking in others to re-check my own & realise we are all different: I often fail however..! lol.gif

 

 

Very true, sir, and good advice. 



#11 starman876

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:20 PM

Another way to put it a little more concisely...

 

Publicly post any and ALL deals that YOU so desire, but . . . ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO BUY IT YOURSELF.  smile.gif

post after you buy it.  Do not be stupid and tell everyone where the great deal is that you are about to buy.


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#12 shredder1656

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:24 PM

"post after you buy it.  Do not be stupid and tell everyone where the great deal is that you are about to buy."

 

Agreed...

 

That was a tongue in cheek admonishment.  If the well-intentioned folks, and I truly believe that they are well-intentioned (generally), would follow that simple rule, posting only when they wanted to buy the item themselves, the thread would die on the vine.  

 

Then we would be left with one of the best threads, in my opinion, on here.  The "FINDS" thread.  Reading some of those threads is almost as enjoyable as getting the deal yourself.  


Edited by shredder1656, 12 January 2018 - 08:25 PM.

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#13 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:30 PM

I have mixed feelings on the thread in question, the "Craigslist, ebay, etc, etc..." thread.  I do enjoy seeing the different offerings around the country.  But, in the past there have been auctions or ads that I have discovered before they were posted in the thread.  The chance of getting a fair to great deal looked promising, but even though the auction had bids in place, someone felt the need to post the link.  There is no way to determine if it was the cause, or a simple correlation, but what looked to be a nice ending, concluded with a loss to me and an over-priced deal after I saw the link on the thread.  

 

I just wonder if it would not be a good idea to, once an auction is discovered, check to see if there is anyone bidding, and if there are already bids in place, avoid posting the link.  Chances are, it is a member.  If you were bidding, you would want it to be kept quiet.  If a person wants to get the word out to other members that they know might be interested, there is always PM.  Why post every ad or auction that looks good, but you personally cannot pursue?  It allows folks that aren't really even looking to toss in a "let's see what sticks to the wall" bid, and run up the price when they have no real intention of buying.  Clearly with a CL ad, there is no way to know if another member is pursuing it, but with an auction, keeping it to yourself for a bit isn't a bad thing.  With a CL ad, though, if you are aware of another member's stomping grounds, shoot them a PM before dumping the chum in the water.   

 

Posting the great deal CL ads before pm'ng members that are actively looking, also allows those tortured souls that are compelled to save the world by educating the willfully ignorant seller(s) to discover that there is another student in need of their brand of curriculum.   These teachers see someone asking less than a scope might be worth, and can't help but call someone across the country and encourage them to believe that they are selling a gold mine.  I wonder if they would be so kind if the seller was in their neighborhood.  

 

I am not involved in any of the currently affected auctions, and have not incurred any damage presently.  It is just an observation, and one of the current threads here brought it to my attention again.  Maybe everyone follows a similar m.o., in avoiding exposing deals to the public, but if not, I think it is worth considering.  

 

Just my two pesos.

 

FINALLY !  ...... Someone else can see the light , other than myself and a few others . bow.gif  waytogo.gif


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#14 starman876

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:21 PM

 

I have mixed feelings on the thread in question, the "Craigslist, ebay, etc, etc..." thread.  I do enjoy seeing the different offerings around the country.  But, in the past there have been auctions or ads that I have discovered before they were posted in the thread.  The chance of getting a fair to great deal looked promising, but even though the auction had bids in place, someone felt the need to post the link.  There is no way to determine if it was the cause, or a simple correlation, but what looked to be a nice ending, concluded with a loss to me and an over-priced deal after I saw the link on the thread.  

 

I just wonder if it would not be a good idea to, once an auction is discovered, check to see if there is anyone bidding, and if there are already bids in place, avoid posting the link.  Chances are, it is a member.  If you were bidding, you would want it to be kept quiet.  If a person wants to get the word out to other members that they know might be interested, there is always PM.  Why post every ad or auction that looks good, but you personally cannot pursue?  It allows folks that aren't really even looking to toss in a "let's see what sticks to the wall" bid, and run up the price when they have no real intention of buying.  Clearly with a CL ad, there is no way to know if another member is pursuing it, but with an auction, keeping it to yourself for a bit isn't a bad thing.  With a CL ad, though, if you are aware of another member's stomping grounds, shoot them a PM before dumping the chum in the water.   

 

Posting the great deal CL ads before pm'ng members that are actively looking, also allows those tortured souls that are compelled to save the world by educating the willfully ignorant seller(s) to discover that there is another student in need of their brand of curriculum.   These teachers see someone asking less than a scope might be worth, and can't help but call someone across the country and encourage them to believe that they are selling a gold mine.  I wonder if they would be so kind if the seller was in their neighborhood.  

 

I am not involved in any of the currently affected auctions, and have not incurred any damage presently.  It is just an observation, and one of the current threads here brought it to my attention again.  Maybe everyone follows a similar m.o., in avoiding exposing deals to the public, but if not, I think it is worth considering.  

 

Just my two pesos.

 

FINALLY !  ...... Someone else can see the light , other than myself and a few others . bow.gif  waytogo.gif

 

They will come over from the dark side one by one.  I would like to think we are providing this service for our friends and not someone who wants to profit from our research. 


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#15 Brian Risley

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:43 PM

Guys, enough.  You have your opinions, you have stated them.  Others have different opinions.  You can't please everyone.  If you don't like something, then just avoid it. 

If the dead herd gets beat up anymore, I will lock this.  This is not a case of the squeaky wheel getting action, we will simply take the wheel out of service!

Brian

 


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#16 starman876

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

I unpluged my Google homelol.gif


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#17 Chuck Hards

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

1.  This thread is supposed to call attention to classic scopes.  The idea originally was to keep them from going to the landfill by letting collectors know.  It does that rather well, we've saved a lot of scopes over the years.  The complaints about the thread seem to have nothing to do with this purpose and are more personal in nature.

 

2.  The thread also keeps dozens of individual auction and ad threads from popping up in the forum.  Personally, the day I sign-on and see half a page of individual auction listings, is the last day I read any threads here for enjoyment.  We don't need the clutter.

 

3.  If a majority of forum users want to see it go away, it will.  All it takes is to stop posting.  Those who don't like it have always been a tiny, vocal minority.  

 

4.  This is like showing-up at a public auction and being mad because it was published in the newspaper and all those other people showed-up.  

 

5.  MANY times I have lost auctions on items not posted in the thread.  It's probably an even split, to tell you the truth.

 

6.  Just because someone else wanted something more than you, it isn't a guarantee that they saw it here.  You can't assume it's the threads fault without proof.

 

7.  There are probably more people finding items on their own than getting wind of it here.  I'm a good example of that, I don't read the CL thread every day.  In fact I rarely read it at all any more.  But I do still check eBay, and CN on my own, with my own search terms that have paid-off for me over the years.  I do not check AM or CL but do check another local Classifieds that has paid-off for me several times.  

 

We should all be glad for these online opportunities.  Anyone who remembers the Starry Messenger will know about calling on a item five minutes after it was delivered by your mailman, only to find that it already sold the day before to someone who got their issue in the mail before you did.  Now, THAT was frustration!  The internet really levelled the playing field.

 

I do have first-hand knowledge of some forum members contacting sellers to "educate" them.  Sellers have given me names when asked- most of them will probably tell you, too, if you ask.  To me, this is someone with far too little to do and they are the real threat.  They do it even if it isn't posted here, so again, don't blame the thread.   

 

Believe me, I understand that a couple of you are frustrated because you feel that you lost out on something because it was posted here.  There are no guarantees except the guarantee that you will still lose out even on items not posted here at all.

 

Nobody who pays top-dollar for a scope and outbid you is going to flip it.  Flippers want bargains so they can turn a profit themselves.  Many of the scopes you lost were in fact won by members here.  Only a minority of the forum users ever post in the "Finds" thread, they have either no time or no desire to tell everyone else what they just picked up.  I have only ever posted a handful of my auction and ad wins, for example.  Same with some of our other members with far larger collections than I.  I am a dabbler compared to them and they are among us.

 

I've waited years for some scopes, lost out on the same model multiple times.  Eventually I got lucky on most of the ones I really wanted.  Sometimes it takes time.  I can't stress this enough to new collectors and enthusiasts.  I've been in this hobby for 50 years.  Took me over 40 of those years before I got the RV-6 I had always wanted.  Kind of puts the immediate gratification blues in perspective, doesn't it?

 

What I'm saying is, life isn't fair.  But anyone can own any telescope listed here, if you are willing to pay for it.  Don't blame the system if your pockets aren't as deep as your interest.  There are still a ton of scopes I'd love to own, but will never be able to afford.  I'm OK with that and losing an auction doesn't get my shorts in a knot.  If it does to you, I'm sorry and wish you could get as much pleasure out of the hunt, as you do the kill.  But keep at it.  Sooner or later you will win.

 

 

I stand behind Brian.  If he locks it, it stays locked.


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#18 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:14 AM

 

This has been debated many times.  For some reason no one wants to hear it.  Someone will complain about these posts and all this will vanish.  I wish I could present a vidoe of all the deals that went sour because of this thread.  Many times while I was picking an item up locally the person told me that there were people calling about the scope.  from their description I could tell they were people from this forum.  There are a lot of sharks in this forum.  They will snatch the meat right out of your mouth if given the chance.

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=y8cTl8y3SKo


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#19 shredder1656

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 05:45 AM

Guys, enough.  You have your opinions, you have stated them.  Others have different opinions.  You can't please everyone.  If you don't like something, then just avoid it. 

If the dead herd gets beat up anymore, I will lock this.  This is not a case of the squeaky wheel getting action, we will simply take the wheel out of service!

Brian

 

 

1.  This thread is supposed to call attention to classic scopes.  The idea originally was to keep them from going to the landfill by letting collectors know.  It does that rather well, we've saved a lot of scopes over the years.  The complaints about the thread seem to have nothing to do with this purpose and are more personal in nature.

 

2.  The thread also keeps dozens of individual auction and ad threads from popping up in the forum.  Personally, the day I sign-on and see half a page of individual auction listings, is the last day I read any threads here for enjoyment.  We don't need the clutter.

 

3.  If a majority of forum users want to see it go away, it will.  All it takes is to stop posting.  Those who don't like it have always been a tiny, vocal minority.  

 

4.  This is like showing-up at a public auction and being mad because it was published in the newspaper and all those other people showed-up.  

 

5.  MANY times I have lost auctions on items not posted in the thread.  It's probably an even split, to tell you the truth.

 

6.  Just because someone else wanted something more than you, it isn't a guarantee that they saw it here.  You can't assume it's the threads fault without proof.

 

7.  There are probably more people finding items on their own than getting wind of it here.  I'm a good example of that, I don't read the CL thread every day.  In fact I rarely read it at all any more.  But I do still check eBay, and CN on my own, with my own search terms that have paid-off for me over the years.  I do not check AM or CL but do check another local Classifieds that has paid-off for me several times.  

 

We should all be glad for these online opportunities.  Anyone who remembers the Starry Messenger will know about calling on a item five minutes after it was delivered by your mailman, only to find that it already sold the day before to someone who got their issue in the mail before you did.  Now, THAT was frustration!  The internet really levelled the playing field.

 

I do have first-hand knowledge of some forum members contacting sellers to "educate" them.  Sellers have given me names when asked- most of them will probably tell you, too, if you ask.  To me, this is someone with far too little to do and they are the real threat.  They do it even if it isn't posted here, so again, don't blame the thread.   

 

Believe me, I understand that a couple of you are frustrated because you feel that you lost out on something because it was posted here.  There are no guarantees except the guarantee that you will still lose out even on items not posted here at all.

 

Nobody who pays top-dollar for a scope and outbid you is going to flip it.  Flippers want bargains so they can turn a profit themselves.  Many of the scopes you lost were in fact won by members here.  Only a minority of the forum users ever post in the "Finds" thread, they have either no time or no desire to tell everyone else what they just picked up.  I have only ever posted a handful of my auction and ad wins, for example.  Same with some of our other members with far larger collections than I.  I am a dabbler compared to them and they are among us.

 

I've waited years for some scopes, lost out on the same model multiple times.  Eventually I got lucky on most of the ones I really wanted.  Sometimes it takes time.  I can't stress this enough to new collectors and enthusiasts.  I've been in this hobby for 50 years.  Took me over 40 of those years before I got the RV-6 I had always wanted.  Kind of puts the immediate gratification blues in perspective, doesn't it?

 

What I'm saying is, life isn't fair.  But anyone can own any telescope listed here, if you are willing to pay for it.  Don't blame the system if your pockets aren't as deep as your interest.  There are still a ton of scopes I'd love to own, but will never be able to afford.  I'm OK with that and losing an auction doesn't get my shorts in a knot.  If it does to you, I'm sorry and wish you could get as much pleasure out of the hunt, as you do the kill.  But keep at it.  Sooner or later you will win.

 

 

I stand behind Brian.  If he locks it, it stays locked.

 

I will preface this post with the fact that I am primarily responding because I opened the can of worms.  I don't necessarily interpret either of the quoted posts directed at me personally.  Some of what was written applies to me, and some does not.  However, to clarify my intention(s) and hopefully smooth over any unintended offense, I thought it would a good idea to respond.  Hopefully I don't further muddy the waters, or create more squeaks.  

 

As I said in the first line of my post, I have mixed feelings about the thread.  I will also add to this the fact that I am probably not qualified to have a strong and considerable opinion on this topic or many on the classics forum.  I am a rookie, and in hindsight, I probably should just kept my mouth shut and enjoyed this place (and, I do immensely).  But, I do, like I said, have mixed feelings.  A little of that love/hate.  LOL  Another thread here was the proximate cause of my voice.

 

Brian, my apologies for making the job of a mod more difficult, if I did.  Considering my short tenure here, I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn.  I was aware of a similar discussion a few weeks or months ago.  However, I thought my intended point was slightly different than my previous opinion, and what I remember being discussed.  So, in my naivete I opened this thread.  I did not realize that it was beaten as badly as it apparently has been.  Yes, I realized it was a previous topic, but of the magnitude that it apparently is, I was not.  Again, my apologies.  

 

Chuck, you made some, in my opinion, great points about the value of the thread and perceptions/misperceptions of its intentions.  I clearly see your point, for example, that the thread was more about saving those classics in danger of extinction than it was about connecting specific buyers to the scopes.  There definitely is more to the thread than getting a deal.  As a rookie, that salvation was an objective that was not immediately evident to me.  Thanks, for pointing that out.  

 

Also, the idea that having the type of information available there confined to one spot keeps the forum more refined is great too.  I try, but maybe do not do the best job, to search for previous discussions on topics about which I have questions before posting a new thread, in hopes of helping keep the forum free of repeat discussions.  This thread is one way to contribute to that end.  I see that more clearly now.  

 

So, I did not intend to promote the idea of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, although I mentioned the thread "dying on the vine".  That bit was to lightly illustrate the "golden rule" concept that really was the primary idea in my mind.  At times it would seem that a bit of thought before posting an ad would be beneficial to the group.  However, both of you pointed out that likely the good outweighs the bad, so I accept that.  There is more at stake than just my personal feelings, or hopes.  I get that.  

 

I have to say that I do not completely agree with the idea that the frustration voiced here is akin to being frustrated that an auction was advertised in the newspaper before the start of the auction and as a result produced competing bidders.  From my POV, the frustration, again speaking only for myself, is more similar to bidding at an auction that was promoted in the newspaper, happily competing with opposing bidders that responded to the newspaper ad, but then at the last minute having a bus roll up with new bidders that were solicited by a bystander at the auction who has no dog in the fight and those new bidders didn't even care until it looked like a sniping was in order.  I understand that this is not a true and accurate representation of the intentions or actions of players in this game.  But, sometimes that is how I perceive it.  I ain't gonna cry over it, but if the potential damage can be mitigated, I am all for it.  LOL  On the other hand, like you implied, "life sucks, and then you die".  LOL

 

And, correlation is NOT causation.  I edited my original post to reinforce my intended points.  Also, to make sure that you were aware that I mentioned this important disclaimer from the get-go.  You are absolutely correct.  Just because an item I wanted was more important to another buyer, the thread is NOT necessarily to blame.  

 

Then we have the reality that "Seniority sucks until you get some".  Your point about the years that many of the folks on here have put into this hobby is well received.  I respect that, and while I personally have dove headfirst and ankle-deep into this great hobby, I am so low of rank that I need to crane my neck to see the bottom.  I am blessed to have had the opportunity to buy some amazing and desirable scopes.  I am guessing that there are folks here that have been in the hobby for years that might have deserved one or all of them more than me.  Some of the scopes I paid more than they were worth (usually finding that out afterwards, of course lol), some I paid more than asking due to being aware that it was a steal, and the best ones were scopes that thoughtful members on here offered to sell me or from ads about which other members notified me.  I honestly feel a pang of guilt sometimes.  (sometimes :) )BUT, while I might have the money to buy certain things, my personal decision was to liquidate items from other previously (and, currently) pursued hobbies to provide my "seed" money.  So, when a deal comes along, I jump.  Regarding the more senior (referencing years in the hobby, not physical age) members here, I will not knowingly bid against them, or attempt to buy something from under them.  There have been several scopes that I discovered on my own that were being auctioned, or advertised for sale, that I had learned, through research here and elsewhere, had a high probability of being excellent buys and performers, or just excellent performers regardless of price.  Yet, in one way or another, I became aware of a member on this site that was intending to buy or bid on the scope.  Once I became aware of that fact, I withdrew my bid, or declined to purchase.  That is my personal decision, but I feel strongly about it.  

 

Most of these scopes draw me for reasons that are mutual among us, but many of the senior hobbyists here also have a sentimentality about these scopes that I don't share.  I did not participate as a youngster.  This emotional aspect of the hobby, to me, carries great weight.  When I am aware of a person that bears that weight I will defer to them, likely every time.  So, please, do not interpret my opinion as being based on the desire for immediate gratification.  I am not the most patient person, and much to my wife's annoyance many times, I run headlong into a variety of things.  But, I realize and respect the years, blood, sweat, and tears, that many of you have put into this.  I apologize I project a different vibe.  

 

On the other hand, like you said, if I have the cash to buy it, unless I know someone else is vying for the same scope, I am jumping all over it.  I am not going to post a link to make sure I don't offend someone that might have been looking for a long long time.  If I realize, after the fact, that someone was fiending for a specific scope, whether from sentimentality or other, for a long period of time, more than likely, I would not be opposed to selling it to that person for the price I paid.  That is just my feeling.  Even though I am a little driven sometimes, I do not NEED these scopes.  Honestly, if I could keep only one, my little daughter's Towa 305 that we are working on, I would be very happy.  One of the big motivators to pursue this hobby was to have an educational hobby that the whole family could enjoy together.  We don't need more than one scope to enjoy it.  

 

So, after that long diatribe, not that you need my permission, you are welcome to lock this thread.  My, I hope, salient point(s), really are just that "golden rule" concept.  Maybe keeping the thread (not that I personally wanted it shut down), but adding a "rule of thumb" or several would be good.  Really, maybe that should have been the more vivid point in my original post.  While it might not have been fully formed and communicated, these suffice:

 

1. Post the link, but only after at least a cursory effort to make sure another member isn't bidding.  (don't post an "are you bidding on this?" thread LOL)  Maybe, don't post a link on the last day of a 7 or 10 day auction, unless there are no bids at all.  

 

2. If a member you are familiar with lives in the area of the ad, let them know about the ad before posting.    

 

3. Use a little caution, and give it a day or two before posting.  Actively hunting members deserve a little time to discover it, before the post.  

 

4. Unless you are personally involved somehow, don't contact the seller.  Would you want someone to contact the seller of a scope you were negotiating?

 

5. If you are a buyer, be honest, and do not take advantage of a seller.  While the burden of research is on them, buying a $3,500 Questar for $50,  without an honest discussion with the seller, is (besides being a fairytale) borderline immoral if not fully so.  

 

6.  Save the scopes.  :)

 

Lastly, (music to the ears of many, I am sure) I don't want to take away from or inhibit the timbre of this forum.  Pretty much everyone I have encountered here has had a positive influence in my involvement.  Thanks!  Again, the above is just my two cents on how one thread MIGHT be improved.  I did not intend to stir the hornets nest, and my self-perceived witticisms that followed my original post are withdrawn if they were out of line or perceived as mean-spirited.  Even though I stand by my opinion for the most part, I absolutely didn't intend to project bitterness.    


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#20 CHASLX200

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 06:31 AM

I don't care what all goes on. I am not in buying mode.  I did buy a older C5 for other reasons. but pretty much no plans to go back to crazy buying. 


Edited by CHASLX200, 13 January 2018 - 06:32 AM.

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#21 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:26 AM

1. Post the link, but only after at least a cursory effort to make sure another member isn't bidding.  (don't post an "are you bidding on this?" thread LOL)  Maybe, don't post a link on the last day of a 7 or 10 day auction, unless there are no bids at all.

 

 

This seems unrealistic to me.  Just how am I supposed to know who might be bidding or interested in an item?  I've been a member of CN going on 14 years,  a casual member of classics forum,  I have no idea how I would find out if someone else here were bidding. 

 

As a rule,  I don't do auctions except for Astromart.  Auctions like eBay are based on the biggest fool theory,  if you're looking for a bargain,  it's the wrong venue. Bargain hunting is like fishing,  you need your secret fishing holes. 

 

When you're doing EBay or other public auctions,  you're fishing at the popular fishing holes.  When the fish are biting, people know there's a bite on.. You shouldn't be surprised or bummed out when the fleet shows up. 

 

When I see a CL ad for a classic scope,  I'll let it go a few days and if it hasn't sold,  I might post a link here.  It's not just as a service to the members of this forum,  it's as a service to the seller as well.  In my mind CN is not here for the members of the classics forums to try to get the best deals for themselves, it's here to provide a service for the community at large,  members and non members. 

 

Put yourself into Michael and Fred Bieler's shoes.  They spend thousands of dollars a month supporting Cloudy Nights and yet much of that money supports discussions about their competitors and where to get the best deal.  

 

Talk about selflessness and for the good of the greater community..  Ask yourself what Fred and Mike would do..  

 

Jon


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#22 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:51 AM

Shut up about the scope if you are interested in buying it, which is pretty much a no brainer!

 

 

:waytogo:

 

Part of bargain hunting is the adrenaline rush when one knows the race is on.. Once the decision has been made,  it's got to be a number one priority because you're racing against the unknown.. 

 

I think that adrenaline rush can be addictive,  "winning" that race can be more important than buying and using the item.. 

 

Jon


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#23 starman876

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:56 AM

so........in the end what does all this mean??? According to Chuck it does not matter. In the end nothing changes.   Meanwhile, depending on what you have experienced, you know that's not true.  I would agree that for Ebay listings that 9 times out of ten nothing changes.  There are a ton of people looking at those Ebay ads.   However, it is those Craigslist ads that only appear in the citys where they are listed.   True, you can make an Craigslist search engine, but  CN has provided a neat service to post classic scopes in one easy to find place.  Also, scopes from other auction houses get posted.  I know there have been scopes i never would have been known to me that were for sale if it were not for CN.  So, it is a double sided sword.  you love it when you find things you want and you hate it when everyone else finds out about it.  Bottom line is you cant have it both ways.  So I am going to stop complaining about it and just enjoy it when I can.  I admit it is a strange service that many people live for.  to some i bet its like a drug.  so lets all just enjoy it and stop complaining.   i know i am.  


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#24 shredder1656

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:45 AM

I absolutely think that the hunt is a blast, and that this whole pursuit is like a drug LOL.  Definitely a rabbit hole.  

 

I did not intend to complain.  As I stated, a couple times now, I am not directly affected, but I see how it is possible.  Also stated previously, the correlation might JUST be a correlation, except on specific occasions.  To think it is impossible, or unlikely is, to me counter-intuitive.  Simple logic warrants that if it is possible, it happens.   

 

As far as determining if a member is bidding, that was referenced as "cursory" effort.  For example, if you recognize the bidder's name, then the obvious answer is to refrain from posting.  BUT...that is a personal choice.  The recommendation is only that., a recommendation.

 

Best of luck to all.



#25 terraclarke

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:46 PM

When I was in the airlines, we had a saying at NWA: “It is what it is.” I think it applies here.


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