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Would the Universe exist at all without Consciousness ?

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#1 walt99

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:59 AM

E= M  X  C square .    C  is the speed of light .  Speed is distance and time.  Time,  according to Kant ,  is a product of the mind .

 

So,  without time ,  without the mind ,  could the Universe exist at all ?



#2 lee14

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:10 AM

Kant is in error. Time is not a subjective creation of consciousness, it is a fundamental property of physical reality. If you discount the physical nature of time, you literally toss out the entirety of modern science, from molecular biology to quantum mechanics. It's not just something that conveniently makes the math work.

 

Lee


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#3 PFitzhorn

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:21 AM

I'm an engineer.  The universe exists.  It existed before mankind. It exists now.  It will exist after mankind.

I like being an engineer!


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#4 NochesNubladas

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:33 AM

This reminds me of the question: "If a trees falls in the woods with no one to hear, does it make a sound?"

I like to point out how this is just arrogance of the oil burning apes.

Besides the fact that sound is a vibration carried through the medium of air. It is not required that anything be there to hear it in order for it to be a sound. But in fact, all the animals we discount as valid listeners all heard it.



 


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#5 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:36 AM

You're assuming the Universe even exists in the first place. 

 

And if it does exist, how do you know it does? 


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#6 SeaBee1

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:37 AM

Yes, the Universe would exist... it really really doesn't give one hoot what we think about it...

 

Just sayin...

 

CB


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#7 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:40 AM

Yes, the Universe would exist... it really really doesn't give one hoot what we think about it...

 

Just sayin...

 

CB

How do you know if it does or doesn't give one hoot what we think about it? That is of course, assuming it exists in the first place, and if it did, you are assuming "it" has a consciousness with which to give a hoot. 



#8 Mark326

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:41 AM

Think the OP is touching on Anthropic Principle perhaps. https://en.m.wikiped...ropic_principle  the lite version.

 

I agree with Lee's point, Time is not something made up to make the math work.

 

Kant's philosophy on the subject is same category of a thought experiment such as "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"  

 

Thought experiments are a invaluable tool for advancing our understanding of the physical universe.

 

The "Time Problem" as related to quantum mechanics vs classical physics may be good place to apply deep thought experiment.  

 

Finally, the Observer Effect, basically indicates just by making the observation, we have affected the outcome. Because the observer is part of the system (universe) , it is not possible to observe without having influence on the experiment.

 

brain hurts now...


Edited by Mark326, 19 January 2018 - 01:37 PM.

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#9 barbarosa

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:44 AM

Kant, really someone still reads Kant?

 

Forget him and the rest of that ilk, we can answer your question from authoritative sources.

 

The universe had a beginning and we can date it. It was either billions of years ago or about 6000 years ago  on a Saturday.

 

When will it end? Not a settled question for the physicists (for engineers maybe) or sooner than you think according to sources accepted by many people.

 

In practical terms however the answer is that the universe began with me and will end with me. You don't count.wink.gif 


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#10 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:46 AM

The universe had a beginning and we can date it. 

Not without a consciousness we can't.



#11 barbarosa

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:52 AM

This reminds me of the question: "If a trees falls in the woods with no one to hear, does it make a sound?"

I like to point out how this is just arrogance of the oil burning apes.

Besides the fact that sound is a vibration carried through the medium of air. It is not required that anything be there to hear it in order for it to be a sound. But in fact, all the animals we discount as valid listeners all heard it.



 

Sound-- "vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear." (emphasis added) 

 

Or as old physics texts put it-- an audible wave of pressure, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid. In human physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain.

 

​The point is that sound is a perception and not merely pressure waves propagated in a medium. But then classical physics often had it wrong.



#12 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:02 PM

Perhaps the Universe is consciousness, and we are merely a manifestation of it. 


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#13 jimschwartz

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:03 PM

Read Lanza ansd Berman's great discussion of the relationship between Consciousness and the external world in "Beyond Biocentrism."  Outstanding book.


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#14 CygnuS

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:12 PM

I'm going to be really mad if science discovers I'm not here. 


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#15 Astrojensen

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:31 PM

 

Would the Universe exist at all without Consciousness ?

The more one thinks about this, the more mindblowing it becomes. 

 

Is the universe here, because we are here to think about it? 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#16 walt99

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:42 PM

The great guitarist and philosopher Chet Atkins said  "time exists so that everything doesn't happen all at once".

 

Perhaps,  without Mind,  we could say the Universe would happen all at once ,  in no time . . .


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#17 trurl

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:08 PM

Philosophers had a name for this idea before the "Anthropic Principle" or even Kant. It's called solipsism. I don't think even philosophers spend much time taking it seriously.



#18 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:18 PM

Philosophers had a name for this idea before the "Anthropic Principle" or even Kant. It's called solipsism. I don't think even philosophers spend much time taking it seriously.

I think. Therefore I think I exist. I think. shrug.gif



#19 walt99

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

Philosophers had a name for this idea before the "Anthropic Principle" or even Kant. It's called solipsism. I don't think even philosophers spend much time taking it seriously.

Well ,  every philosophical system since Descartes has taken pains to avoid falling into solipsism  . . . 



#20 gfamily

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

There is a line of reasoning that goes like this.

 

A suitably advanced computer system will allow a simulation of the universe to be run with a certain level of completeness. 

A suitably advanced computer system will allow a simulation of the mind to be run with a certain level of completeness.

A suitably advanced computer system will allow a simulation of the universe to be run with simulated minds contained within it.

If such a suitably advanced computer system exists, it will run numerous simulations to see how variations in initial conditions result in different histories for the universe. The number of simulated universes will be N(u)

Similarly, it will run numerous simulations to see how variations in the mind model result in different forms of simulated consciousness. The number of simulated universes with consciousness will be N(uc)

We expect to be able to create suitably advanced computer systems in time, as could any suitably advanced life form, including those that have already reached that level of advancement.

 

This means that more 'universes with consciousness' exist in simulation than in reality N(uc) > 1

This means it is more likely that we are simulated consciousness 'living' in a simulation than actually real conscious beings living in a physical universe. 

 

There are flaws in this line of logic, but I'm not sure I can pin them down exactly. 


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#21 PFitzhorn

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:24 PM

Lexicographer: The universe is the whole of all matter, energy and space.
Philosopher:  The universe exists in our minds because we create its existence. 

Physicist:  The universe exists as a warped multidimensional entity obeying a uniform set of laws.

Mathematician:  Consider the perfectly spherical universe...

Engineer:  The universe exists - get over it.

 

I like being an engineer!


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#22 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 02:00 PM

I'm a little leery of the Universe existing because an engineer says it does. 

 

Engineers also claim the products they design work. On paper perhaps. Look no further than the Mounts forum for evidence to the contrary. ;) 


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#23 PFitzhorn

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 03:51 PM

I'm a little leery of the Universe existing because an engineer says it does. 

 

Engineers also claim the products they design work. On paper perhaps. Look no further than the Mounts forum for evidence to the contrary. wink.gif

Bold words from a non-engineer!!  An engineer designed your toilet, your sewer system, your water supply, your car, your heating and AC, the roads you drive on, the equipment that made your shoes, your shirt, your TV, your telescope, and yes - your mount.  Frankly, your mount is spectacular given the price you paid.  You want a foolproof mount?  Pay the price.  I did - I have a Losmandy G11 that is, in a word, spectacular!


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#24 MarkMittlesteadt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 04:01 PM

 

I'm a little leery of the Universe existing because an engineer says it does. 

 

Engineers also claim the products they design work. On paper perhaps. Look no further than the Mounts forum for evidence to the contrary. wink.gif

Bold words from a non-engineer!!  An engineer designed your toilet, your sewer system, your water supply, your car, your heating and AC, the roads you drive on, the equipment that made your shoes, your shirt, your TV, your telescope, and yes - your mount.  Frankly, your mount is spectacular given the price you paid.  You want a foolproof mount?  Pay the price.  I did - I have a Losmandy G11 that is, in a word, spectacular!

 

Who said I wasn't (or never was) an engineer? LOL.

 

Now if you had said that you yourself designed the Universe, your bold words that the Universe exists might carry more weight. 

 

The handle broke on my toilet, our sewer system has required repairs, my water supply is tainted, my car has a lot of design flaws, my furnace (although brand new) needs to be replaced because of reoccurring problems from a faulty circuit board, my boots have soles that come apart (regardless of brand), my TV has countless glitches, etc. None of which were problematic due to being cheap. Actually my mount probably is the best design out of all the things I mentioned. 

 

And still, while I appreciate all that engineers have done for this world, proving the Universe exists is not one of them.


Edited by MarkMittlesteadt, 19 January 2018 - 04:06 PM.

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#25 PFitzhorn

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 05:01 PM

 

 

I'm a little leery of the Universe existing because an engineer says it does. 

 

Engineers also claim the products they design work. On paper perhaps. Look no further than the Mounts forum for evidence to the contrary. wink.gif

Bold words from a non-engineer!!  An engineer designed your toilet, your sewer system, your water supply, your car, your heating and AC, the roads you drive on, the equipment that made your shoes, your shirt, your TV, your telescope, and yes - your mount.  Frankly, your mount is spectacular given the price you paid.  You want a foolproof mount?  Pay the price.  I did - I have a Losmandy G11 that is, in a word, spectacular!

 

Who said I wasn't (or never was) an engineer? LOL.

 

Now if you had said that you yourself designed the Universe, your bold words that the Universe exists might carry more weight. 

 

The handle broke on my toilet, our sewer system has required repairs, my water supply is tainted, my car has a lot of design flaws, my furnace (although brand new) needs to be replaced because of reoccurring problems from a faulty circuit board, my boots have soles that come apart (regardless of brand), my TV has countless glitches, etc. None of which were problematic due to being cheap. Actually my mount probably is the best design out of all the things I mentioned. 

 

And still, while I appreciate all that engineers have done for this world, proving the Universe exists is not one of them.

 

Of course you have a valid point.  I was making a joke in the post.  However, I suppose the fact that engineers and scientists have worked to help humans walk on the moon, part of the non-earthly universe, seems pretty real to me!  Launching satellites and receiving pix and data from our solar system makes the universe pretty real to me.  Having satellites leave our solar system into the galaxy seems pretty real to me.  The point I was making was - as an engineer - reality IS - we don't need to question it existentially because we have to deal with it as it is. 

 

I wasn't saying that engineers can prove the universe exists.  My point was, engineers have to work with it the way it is.


Edited by PFitzhorn, 19 January 2018 - 05:04 PM.

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