Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

C11 on Evolution mount

  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:42 AM

I know that the general consensus is going to be a big NO-NO. But bear with me, please...

 

I own a 9.25 Evolution. I seem to enjoy good skies and would like to get a bit more resolution for planets and a bit more light gathering for DSO and to compensate for Binoviewer light loss. I am just not keen on GEM’s at all.

 

I love my Evolution mount. I think it’s a fantastic package. I have consistently driven my mount with my C925 OTA AND the following add-ons:

 

- Starsense auto-align kit

- 9x50 RACI 

- Binoviewer with widefield eyepieces

- Baader dovetail 1kg counterweight clamp (for compensating and balancing)

 

All the above accounts for nearly 3kg, and not only are my gotos still very accurate, the system appears to function well and without stress. Indeed, vibrations are a bit more noticeable, but all in all the system works like a charm.

 

The C11 is (if I’m not mistaken) only 3 or 4 cm longer than the C9.25, and 3 kilos heavier, so that leads me to believe that, at least in theory, it should be possible to drive a C11 with 1.25 diagonal and eyepieces on the Evolution mount.

 

I wonder if anybody has tried this combination and what would be your thoughts on this, even if just for fun...


  • BLACKDRAGON likes this

#2 coopman

coopman

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Joined: 23 Apr 2006
  • Loc: South Louisiana

Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:51 AM

The fact that they don't sell the Evolution with the C11 OTA should tell you something.  Call me very skeptical about the feasibility of that combination.


  • elwaine, Gregg Carter, Gary Z and 1 other like this

#3 DLuders

DLuders

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,941
  • Joined: 10 Apr 2017
  • Loc: Spokane, WA

Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:52 AM

Have you seen the Celestron webpage https://www.celestro...load-capacities for the mount payload capacities?   shameonyou.gif  


  • eros312 and Gregg Carter like this

#4 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:56 AM

Hi coopman, and thanks for “playing” with me. In the end, this is nothing but a thought experiment. At least for now... ;-)

 

I understand your skepticism, and I started this thread knowing that the answers would mostly go in that direction. But I wonder, if my current setup seems to show that the mount is phisically capable, why are most people still skeptical of this combo?

 

What else could go wrong that I’m not considering?

 

By the way, the weight difference between both OTA’s seems to be even less than 3 kg, more like 2.6kg.


  • BLACKDRAGON likes this

#5 junomike

junomike

    ISS

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 21,777
  • Joined: 07 Sep 2009
  • Loc: Ontario

Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:57 AM

If you have access to a C11 you can try it indoors with a "spotter" and see how it acts.

I regularly over-mount also but the thing to remember is that the C11 has a longer Dovetail and you'll want some of those listed accessories on the C11 also so the difference

between the two is the stated OTA difference (about 10 lbs).


  • sevenofnine likes this

#6 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:58 AM

DLuders, the Evolution is not listed there, and the tripod supplied with my 9.25 is the same as the one that comes with the CPC11. Nothing to do with the one that is supplied with the SE scopes.

 

Thanks.


Edited by ERHAD, 27 January 2018 - 11:05 AM.


#7 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:00 AM

I wish I had access to a C11. I live in a “smallish” island and don’t know other people who also own telescopes...



#8 junomike

junomike

    ISS

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 21,777
  • Joined: 07 Sep 2009
  • Loc: Ontario

Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:00 AM

Another point you may not be aware of if that IMO the C11 and C14 are far better off (for sturdiness and flexing) by replacing the orange CGE Dovetail with an ADM Losmandy Dovetail (+ radius blocks).  With my C14 this was more evident in Alt/Az mode than GEM mode as the OTA is always sitting horizontal with the weight pulling downward.

Something to consider.


  • mark379 and ERHAD like this

#9 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:03 AM

Another point you may not be aware of if that IMO the C11 and C14 are far better off (for sturdiness and flexing) by replacing the orange CGE Dovetail with an ADM Losmandy Dovetail (+ radius blocks).  With my C14 this was more evident in Alt/Az mode than GEM mode as the OTA is always sitting horizontal with the weight pulling downward.

Something to consider.

Thanks Junomike, those are the type of practical considerations that I was looking to hear and that I obviously haven’t thought of.



#10 junomike

junomike

    ISS

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 21,777
  • Joined: 07 Sep 2009
  • Loc: Ontario

Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:11 AM

All that being said, take a look at this thread as the modified CPC1100 seems to work well enough for the OP.

The Evo is still a little smaller in size but could still be acceptable (depending on user preference)


  • ERHAD likes this

#11 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:31 AM

All that being said, take a look at this thread as the modified CPC1100 seems to work well enough for the OP.

The Evo is still a little smaller in size but could still be acceptable (depending on user preference)

Junomike, that thread was a wonderful read. Thanks!. I was pleased that in the picture where he has Evolution and CPC side by side he seems to have a Losmandy dovetail attached to his Evolution mount (through some kind of adapter/attachment), so it should be possible to ride a C11 on the Evolution with a Losmandy bar as per your recommendation.

 

Thanks!



#12 Jim4321

Jim4321

    Skylab

  • -----
  • Posts: 4,324
  • Joined: 19 Sep 2014
  • Loc: Asheville

Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:32 AM

Remember that you will also be moving the center of gravity of the OTA out from the mount about an inch. This will make it tip over to the side more easily, if nothing else.  I also agree with Mike... the 9.25 is about the limit for a side-mounted load on the Vixen-style bar.  

 

Jim H.



#13 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 28 January 2018 - 06:19 AM

It should be possible in principle to mount a c11 with Losmandy bar on the Evolution vía a gp-Losmandy adapter... I wonder if the adaptation would be a weak link?



#14 mclewis1

mclewis1

    Thread Killer

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,217
  • Joined: 25 Feb 2006
  • Loc: New Brunswick, Canada

Posted 28 January 2018 - 10:46 AM

Celestron sold the C11 on a CG-5 (ASGT) mount for many years. That setup had the narrower Vixen/CG-5 dovetail bar. It wasn't in any danger of falling off or anything like that and while it wouldn't be my first choice the narrower bar did work out well for 100s of users.

 

ERHAD, if you want to try a C11 on an Evolution stick with the Vixen/CG-5 bar, you don't want to add anything unnecessary to the setup. 

 

C11 with the Vixen/CG-5 bar

Red dot finder (don't bother with an optical finder)

1.25" visual back, diagonal, and simpler eyepieces 

lightweight dew shield (I'd suggest making your own to keep the weight down)

nothing more

 

The Evolution mount would have to have the larger tripod that comes with the c925 version of the Evolution or something similar ... not the lightweight tripod used on the 6 or 8" models. You could also go out and find a used CPC tripod or an older Ultima or NexStar GPS tripod (this one isn't quite as heavy as the CPC or C925 Evolution tripod but could indeed be made to "work" underneath a minimal C11 setup).

 

I personally wouldn't go out and buy all these bits and pieces to create a C11/Evolution setup, for a new purchase I would stick with the C925 model because you simply wouldn't be giving up much visually between them and you'd be much happier with the lighter C925. Even if you are doing this with used gear I would stick with the C925 setup. If however you already have access to a C11 and an Evolution mount then I'd say go for it. With some careful planning and limiting the weights involved you certainly could make a C11 work for you.


  • Clint McQueen likes this

#15 N2KEN

N2KEN

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 243
  • Joined: 17 Nov 2015
  • Loc: Brooklyn, NY / Catskill, NY

Posted 01 February 2018 - 01:57 AM

I have both an Evolution mount and a modified single arm CPC mount. I've used the Evo extensively with a C9.25 and it supports this without any issues. The single arm CPC mount (from a deforked CPC 1100) will handle either the C9.25 or C11 for visual and EAA use. The C11 on the modified CPC mount gets a bit shaky for EAA during wind gusts, but it handles the C11 OTA better than the Evo.  Since the single arm CPC is more stable with the C9.25 than with the C11, I use it only with the C9.25. The modified single arm CPC mount is significantly larger and more robust than the Evolution mount.

 

This fall I tried the C11 on the Evo using a quickly fabricated adapter for the Vixen saddle on the Evo to mount the wider Losmandy rail of my C11.  This (and wider OTA diameter) added a few inches of distance from the Evo's saddle which likely adds some stress to the bearings. The Evo aligned, performed Gotos and tracked well during a 30 minute test run. However, this is a poor fit.

 

Even though I had it on the sturdy CPC tripod, it was prone to vibration during focusing and from the wind. This is a significant load on the small single arm aluminum frame of the Evolution.  The diagonal did not clear the base of the Evo near the Zenith. I didn't carefully check the balance, but the heavier mirror, longer tube and larger structure will require a different position than the C9.25. In my opinion, the size and weight of the C9.25 is about the limit for the Evo mount for routine viewing or EAA.

 

I use the C11 on a pier mounted Atlas Az/EQG which works well for EAA and some AP experimentation except during windy conditions. With Hyperstar, guidescope, cameras, and dew shield this is about as much as I'd load on this mount for routine use. My thoughts are the Evo would likely fail under this much loading if used routinely this way. 


  • Clint McQueen, elwaine, eros312 and 3 others like this

#16 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 01 February 2018 - 03:18 AM

Ken, thanks so much for your invaluable contribution, I’m really glad someone with first hand experience could share experience.

 

I’m really happy with my 9.25 evo, but I do see a C11 in my future. Since it looks the Evo won’t do it, and I don’t want/like GEM mounts, I guess there are only two options for driving a C11 on AZ mode: Skywatcher AZEQ5 (I believe it is the same mount as the Atlas), or a CPC11 forkmount. Since I already own the Evo/CPC wedge, I’m inclined to go with the CPC, but which one do you guys think would be more solid and less prone to vibrations?

 

Thanks again!

 

Erik


Edited by ERHAD, 01 February 2018 - 03:28 AM.

  • swsantos likes this

#17 N2KEN

N2KEN

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 243
  • Joined: 17 Nov 2015
  • Loc: Brooklyn, NY / Catskill, NY

Posted 03 February 2018 - 01:40 AM

Erik,

I've never used the CPC 1100 on a wedge. I used the CPC 1100 for some EAA and visual before deforking the OTA and modifying the fork mount. In standard alt-az configuration on the heavy duty Celestron CPC tripod it is quite sturdy and supports the C11 very well. The 11" OTA and fork combo were at the weight limit of my desire to carry these to the yard and back inside. 

 

I use the C11 with an Orion Atlas Pro AZ/EQ-G mounted on a concrete pier.  I leave the Atlas Pro covered on the pier and carry the C11 and/or other OTAs outside as needed.  If the weather is nice things remain on the pier for several days. The Atlas Pro which is the same as the Skywatcher AZEQ-6 has a rated load capacity of 44 pounds in EQ mode.  This would be a better choice than the Skywatcher AZEQ-5 (same as Orion Sirius Pro AZ/EQ-G)  that you mention in your above post. The names can be confusing, and I wasn't clear about which version of the Orion mount I have in my previous post.

 

The Skywatcher AZEQ-5 has a lower rated capacity - about 30-33 pounds depending on who's specs are referenced.   There are varying opinions and interpretations regarding these mounts and the total carrying capacity in alt-az mode when mounting two scopes. I've used the Atlas Pro several times with the C11 / Hyperstar on the main saddle and an ES 127 refractor with a diagonal and binoviewer on the secondary side with an added 10 pound counterweight for balance.  The mount had absolutely no problems with gotos or tracking with this load. EAA images where quite nice using SharpCap Pro for stacking and image alignment and then using the refractor for visual on some objects.  I'm very pleased with this alt-az configuration.  

 

For casual astrophotography use in EQ mode, the Atlas Pro is probably at its limit with the C11, AT65EDQ guidescope, Hyperstar, cameras, dew shield, cables and support hardware. On a calm night tracking and guiding is usually good. On windy nights I've had trouble with guiding and stability.  


  • gfstallin likes this

#18 rmollise

rmollise

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23,512
  • Joined: 06 Jul 2007
  • Loc: US

Posted 03 February 2018 - 10:48 AM

I know that the general consensus is going to be a big NO-NO. But bear with me, please...

 

I own a 9.25 Evolution. I seem to enjoy good skies and would like to get a bit more resolution for planets and a bit more light gathering for DSO and to compensate for Binoviewer light loss. I am just not keen on GEM’s at all.

 

I love my Evolution mount. I think it’s a fantastic package. I have consistently driven my mount with my C925 OTA AND the following add-ons:

 

- Starsense auto-align kit

- 9x50 RACI 

- Binoviewer with widefield eyepieces

- Baader dovetail 1kg counterweight clamp (for compensating and balancing)

 

All the above accounts for nearly 3kg, and not only are my gotos still very accurate, the system appears to function well and without stress. Indeed, vibrations are a bit more noticeable, but all in all the system works like a charm.

 

The C11 is (if I’m not mistaken) only 3 or 4 cm longer than the C9.25, and 3 kilos heavier, so that leads me to believe that, at least in theory, it should be possible to drive a C11 with 1.25 diagonal and eyepieces on the Evolution mount.

 

I wonder if anybody has tried this combination and what would be your thoughts on this, even if just for fun...

 

I haven't tried it, but would certainly counsel against it. I found the 9.25 tolerable, but at the outer limit for this mount, both due to vibration and the length of the tube. ;)


  • Gregg Carter likes this

#19 ERHAD

ERHAD

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2016
  • Loc: Canary Islands, Spain

Posted 10 February 2018 - 02:54 PM

Thanks to all who took the time to answer. Sorry it took me so long to reply, been really caught up. I guess the best/only option for driving a C11 would be a CPC Mount if I want to stay away from GEM mounts... food for thought.

 

Thanks again!



#20 gfstallin

gfstallin

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,146
  • Joined: 08 Aug 2015
  • Loc: Cheverly, Maryland USA

Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:44 AM

Thanks to all who took the time to answer. Sorry it took me so long to reply, been really caught up. I guess the best/only option for driving a C11 would be a CPC Mount if I want to stay away from GEM mounts... food for thought.

 

Thanks again!

I've been wondering the same thing. They do make sturdier fork mounts that can be used with different OTAs, though they they are priced at such a point which makes me doubt people are using them for commercial equipment on a regular basis. I have seen one used CPC1100 mount without an OTA for sale before, but it seems rare. As mentioned by N2KEN the AZ-EQ6 mount might be a best bet. Plus they should be available for delivery to the Canary Islands (though I'm guessing shipping from mainland Spain is not always easy or cheap). 

 

George



#21 chuckscap

chuckscap

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,198
  • Joined: 18 Jul 2009
  • Loc: Colorado Springs, CO USA

Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:53 PM

 

I know that the general consensus is going to be a big NO-NO. But bear with me, please...

 

I own a 9.25 Evolution. I seem to enjoy good skies and would like to get a bit more resolution for planets and a bit more light gathering for DSO and to compensate for Binoviewer light loss. I am just not keen on GEM’s at all.

 

I love my Evolution mount. I think it’s a fantastic package. I have consistently driven my mount with my C925 OTA AND the following add-ons:

 

- Starsense auto-align kit

- 9x50 RACI 

- Binoviewer with widefield eyepieces

- Baader dovetail 1kg counterweight clamp (for compensating and balancing)

 

All the above accounts for nearly 3kg, and not only are my gotos still very accurate, the system appears to function well and without stress. Indeed, vibrations are a bit more noticeable, but all in all the system works like a charm.

 

The C11 is (if I’m not mistaken) only 3 or 4 cm longer than the C9.25, and 3 kilos heavier, so that leads me to believe that, at least in theory, it should be possible to drive a C11 with 1.25 diagonal and eyepieces on the Evolution mount.

 

I wonder if anybody has tried this combination and what would be your thoughts on this, even if just for fun...

 

I haven't tried it, but would certainly counsel against it. I found the 9.25 tolerable, but at the outer limit for this mount, both due to vibration and the length of the tube. wink.gif

 

 

I would try it.  Not saying it will work, but it's worth a shot. I don't think the weight of the tube is the issue it's the length.  In order for it to clear at zenith you will have to push it pretty far forward.   I had the same issue with my 9.25 and now my TEC 7 Mak on my Evolution 9.25 mount.  I bought a  photo tripod weight from BH Photo and clamped it onto the handle of my Mak it works great.   

 

cKqPafZ.jpg


Edited by chuckscap, 11 February 2018 - 08:39 PM.


#22 beachamd

beachamd

    Lift Off

  • *****
  • Posts: 16
  • Joined: 29 Aug 2017
  • Loc: Eugene, Oregon

Posted 08 May 2018 - 04:25 PM

I've been using this exact configuration for a few months now and had the first lengthy run with it last night. No complaints for observing. You lose some clearance near zenith where the diagonal approaches the rail at the base of the mount, but even when loaded with my 5 x 50 finderscope and the Starsense camera, the only thing I noted was that I could hear the motors doing their job. 

 

There seem to be an amazing number of opinions on this subject and only a couple of people who have tried it.  Suboptimal? Definitely.  Fantastic for imaging? Obviously not.  Carefree go-to observing with a C11 on my 9.25 Evolution platform? No problemo.

 

What I seek now is a means to counterbalance the front end with some weight on the rear cell so I can gain back my zenith. Any (informed) opinions on this? I really like Chuck's solution, above.  B and H photo, here I come!

 

Chear skies,  Dan B


Edited by beachamd, 08 May 2018 - 04:27 PM.

  • Clint McQueen likes this

#23 tonyt

tonyt

    Vanguard

  • -----
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Joined: 01 Sep 2009
  • Loc: Australia

Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:02 PM

Can we have a picture Dan? Like you say, sub-optimal but capable of the task, we really need a photo of the C11 sitting on the Evo :)



#24 jhighfield

jhighfield

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 123
  • Joined: 13 Jun 2013
  • Loc: Alabama

Posted 12 May 2018 - 12:55 AM

I know that the general consensus is going to be a big NO-NO. But bear with me, please...

 

I own a 9.25 Evolution. I seem to enjoy good skies and would like to get a bit more resolution for planets and a bit more light gathering for DSO and to compensate for Binoviewer light loss. I am just not keen on GEM’s at all.

 

I love my Evolution mount. I think it’s a fantastic package. I have consistently driven my mount with my C925 OTA AND the following add-ons:

 

- Starsense auto-align kit

- 9x50 RACI 

- Binoviewer with widefield eyepieces

- Baader dovetail 1kg counterweight clamp (for compensating and balancing)

 

All the above accounts for nearly 3kg, and not only are my gotos still very accurate, the system appears to function well and without stress. Indeed, vibrations are a bit more noticeable, but all in all the system works like a charm.

 

The C11 is (if I’m not mistaken) only 3 or 4 cm longer than the C9.25, and 3 kilos heavier, so that leads me to believe that, at least in theory, it should be possible to drive a C11 with 1.25 diagonal and eyepieces on the Evolution mount.

 

I wonder if anybody has tried this combination and what would be your thoughts on this, even if just for fun...

Too heavy and too big.  Wont point to zenith either with a 2 inch diagonal unless it is pushed forward a lot, as it is a full 2 inches longer than the 9 1/4. It is also around 7 lbs heavier

 

Pick up CPC fork for less than $500 and remove the right arm.  Even that is a little unstable but at least it can be done.

The Evo is a non-starter.


Edited by jhighfield, 12 May 2018 - 01:02 AM.


#25 beachamd

beachamd

    Lift Off

  • *****
  • Posts: 16
  • Joined: 29 Aug 2017
  • Loc: Eugene, Oregon

Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:16 PM

How do I post a pic?  It's my impression that any images I want to share have to live on a web page someplace.  I've put a few pictures on a Facebook group called "SHOW US YOUR SCOPE" but don't host a website with my pics on it.

 

Feel free to PM me at beachamd@yahoo.com and I'll email all the pictures you want.

 

Again, all these opinions and nobody actually seems to have tried the configuration!  I guess I should just stop enjoying the views and performance. I'm satisfied enough with the performance that I'm selling the 9.25 OTA that came with the Evo mount. (Plug for my sale, scroll back a ways to March when I first composed the ad and left in draft format while I decided if I liked the C11 on the Evo mount- I do)

 

I do in fact push it all the way forward and I do in fact look easily at the zenith.  My counterweight is simple; a small pair of vice grips attached to the carry handle with 3 3 pound microphone stand weight clamped onto it.

 

Been running it for a while now, gleefully oblivious to the apparent consternation of those above. 

 

What's that saying...? 

 

"The person saying it can't be done shouldn't interrupt the person doing it."


  • Clint McQueen and lenrabinowitz like this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics