46 replies to this topic

[dciobota]

Or rather, the little ones that could.

 

Ever since the beginning of my foray into this hobby I have been fascinated about how much you can do with as little as possible.  This included minimizing both money and size, as I have always been on a budget and my trips to dark skies have always meant backpacking or camping in out of the way places.  Oh, and also, I want to take astro photos as well.

 

So, this is for you who are interested in both fairly low cost and fairly lightweight mounts to be used not only for visual but ap also.  I started out with a nexstar gt, then nexstar slt, then in the past 5 years or so I have progressed to three other mounts.  My intent is not to review the mounts, but rather compare them side to side and also give you an idea of each one's strengths and weaknesses.

 

In the attached pic you can see the size differences between the Cube Pro, Skyguider Pro and Smarteq Pro.  To make a fair comparison as far as imaging, I also included the accessories you would end up using for say, a fairly long telephoto lens or a small refractor.  Counterweights actually play a big part in the overall weight and size.

 

You can tell that by size alone, the Skyguider pro is really the smallest and the Smarteq Pro the largest, although if you set them up with counterweights and all the size differences become much smaller.  The skyguider pro does pack the most compact though.

 

Next, I weighed them, without counterweights and shafts (except the Smarteq pro, which has a non easily removable one) and also full kit (but without a tripod).

 

Here are the results:

 

Mount                       wo/cw          with cw

 

Cube Pro                  5.6                  9.2

SkyGuide Pro           4.8                  8.8

Smarteq Pro             7.0                  9.0

 

Surprisingly the weight differences are not huge.  If you go to the trouble of removing the shaft from the smarteq you can shave off at least 0.5lb.  The winner is still the skyguider pro, but really only by a nose.  

 

However, here's a twist.  One trick I learned years ago is tilting the tripod by adjusting the legs to eliminate the need of a wedge.  To make it stable, I used a length of rope/chain/wire connected to the tripod weight hook in the center and the other end firmly screwed into the ground with one of those corkscrew things that you can tie your pets' leash to in the yard.  This cuts a surprising amount of weight in the case of the cube and skyguider, with the skyguider now weighing, without the wedge, a mere 3lb!  It is really lighter than I imagined it to be honest.

 

So now, strengths and weaknesses.  Bear in mind I just got the skyguider, so no outdoor testing as of yet.

 

Cube pro

 

Pros

- pretty cheap if you buy the mount only, just $369.  I recommend this option, save the money and buy a good photo tripod to sit it on instead.  

- Has goto

- can be guided with an iOptron st4 adapter (I heard the new ones can't?)

 

Cons

- Clutch is rather weak.  Can be fixed but it's a dyi project

- Worm block springs also weak.  Fairly simple fix but the mount must be opened up.

- Since most of the weight leans at an angle, it can be a bit unstable

- Can carry long telephotos with careful balancing.  A small refractor like the at65edq is pushing it past its limit... and you must do the clutch and worm block mods before even attempting long lenses or refractors.

- No polar scope.  I used SGP to polar align, so this was not so much of an issue.  

 

Skyuider pro:

 

Pros:

- Smallest of the lot

- Second cheapest, at $428 for the full kit

- Extremely versatile, can be a very small barebones setup or full with counterweight.

- Can be guided, built in st4 port

- can trigger most dslrs, especially those with a 2.5mm cable.

- Carrying capacity?  No idea yet, but I put the at65edq on it inside and there is no "give" in the RA axis.  Feels better than the cube in  that respect so I am hopeful.

- Can use a hand controller to do most functions on the mount.

 

Cons

- No goto.  Not an issue usually, but when reaching the longer focal lengths framing becomes more difficult, especially if the target is really faint.

- Must have the hand controller to use the intervalometer.  It's not cheap at an extra $150

- Tracking/guiding accuracy?  Hard to say yet, but from reading other posts it seems to be close to the smarteq pro.  We'll see if it's as good.

 

Smarteq Pro

 

Pros

- Probably the most accurate of the three as far as tracking/guiding.  Even fully loaded with my setup which weighs right at 10lb it tracks and guides pretty well.

- Probably the highest payload (even though it's listed the same as the skyguider)

- Has pretty much all the bells and whistles of a full mount.  Definitely the most accurate goto between it and the cube pro

 

Cons

- Heaviest and largest of the three

- No camera control like the skyguider

- The most expensive, at $499

 

So, to summarize.

 

If you want the most inexpensive mount that can do widefield and some medium telephoto with a camera, and has goto, the cube pro is your best bang for the buck.

 

If you want the lightest, most versatile setup for backpacking for example, with the option to add the functionality of a "full" mount (minus goto, the skyguider pro would be the one I'd recommend.

 

If you want a "full" mount, with goto, guiding, etc that can handle up to a small refractor, then the smarteq pro is the way to go.

 

There are other worthy mounts out there to be sure, both withing the size/weight and price.  for example, I was really torn between the skyguider pro and the skywatcher star adventurer, which is actually cheaper and seems as versatile (or even more since it supports some timelapse functions as well), but I liked the idea of using the smarteq pro hand controller with the skyguider pro.  Trying to remember button pushes and dial settings in the dark without a manual is too much for me lol.

 

Hope this helps someone.

 

Attached Thumbnails

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[Don W]

I'm very fond of the Celestron SLT mount and its older cousin the GT. Very portable and they track very nicely.

[MalVeauX]

I will also put a shout out towards the Celestron SLT. They're dirt cheap. You can get them $75~90 used all day and they're great for a short little refractor to get out and go with minimal everything.

 

In general though, I too am very fond of the minimalism approach to daily observing. I started out lugging a hundred pounds of equipment out, just to even take a peak. These days, that stuff stays put and I use the lightest smallest things I have more often. I also view at wide angles, so I don't need goto or anything.

 

I think my favorite that I saw was a little 50mm or 60mm Borg on a table-tripod. It truly was small but offered great views really fast. The table-tripod isn't an option for me though. I fully go outside and take a seat. So I like a basic small tripod. Right now, my lightest functional alt-az is a Twilight Nano. It's very small. But it lets my ST80 + 2" focuser/diagonal + 2" 38mm 70 degree EP ride very nicely, with a generous >6 degree FOV.

 

Very best,

[dciobota]

I still have my slt actually.  I didn't take it out to compare but maybe I should have.  Excellent little mount indeed.  A little awkward to use in eq mode, but I even managed to guide it.  Amazingly sturdy, metal gears and a clutch that really grabbed.  A mini tank.

[jcj380]

Smarteq Pro

 

Pros

- Probably the most accurate of the three as far as tracking/guiding.  Even fully loaded with my setup which weighs right at 10lb it tracks and guides pretty well.

- Probably the highest payload (even though it's listed the same as the skyguider)

- Has pretty much all the bells and whistles of a full mount.  Definitely the most accurate goto between it and the cube pro

 

Cons

- Heaviest and largest of the three

- No camera control like the skyguider

- The most expensive, at $499

 

So, 10 pounds is pretty much the upper working limit?  (I'm chasing my tail researching mounts.  Only visual right now, but I admit the ZWOs look pretty spiffy...)

Edited by jcj380, 05 June 2018 - 12:22 PM.

[davidparks]

All the bells and whistles, versatile, portable, accurate... I love this little mount:  https://www.cloudyni...ount/?p=8622607

[dciobota]

For visual, I would say you can push it a bit higher, although I would recommend a good balance.  The only thing with the higher payload is you would have to buy an extra counterweight to balance it.  10lb is pretty much the max you can balance with the supplied counterweight.  And actually, mine was a little unbalanced that way.

[Nicole Sharp]

Or rather, the little ones that could.

 

Ever since the beginning of my foray into this hobby I have been fascinated about how much you can do with as little as possible.  This included minimizing both money and size, as I have always been on a budget and my trips to dark skies have always meant backpacking or camping in out of the way places.  Oh, and also, I want to take astro photos as well.

 

So, this is for you who are interested in both fairly low cost and fairly lightweight mounts to be used not only for visual but ap also.  I started out with a nexstar gt, then nexstar slt, then in the past 5 years or so I have progressed to three other mounts.  My intent is not to review the mounts, but rather compare them side to side and also give you an idea of each one's strengths and weaknesses.

 

In the attached pic you can see the size differences between the Cube Pro, Skyguider Pro and Smarteq Pro.  To make a fair comparison as far as imaging, I also included the accessories you would end up using for say, a fairly long telephoto lens or a small refractor.  Counterweights actually play a big part in the overall weight and size.

 

You can tell that by size alone, the Skyguider pro is really the smallest and the Smarteq Pro the largest, although if you set them up with counterweights and all the size differences become much smaller.  The skyguider pro does pack the most compact though.

 

Next, I weighed them, without counterweights and shafts (except the Smarteq pro, which has a non easily removable one) and also full kit (but without a tripod).

 

Here are the results:

 

Mount                       wo/cw          with cw

 

Cube Pro                  5.6                  9.2

SkyGuide Pro           4.8                  8.8

Smarteq Pro             7.0                  9.0

 

Surprisingly the weight differences are not huge.  If you go to the trouble of removing the shaft from the smarteq you can shave off at least 0.5lb.  The winner is still the skyguider pro, but really only by a nose.  

 

However, here's a twist.  One trick I learned years ago is tilting the tripod by adjusting the legs to eliminate the need of a wedge.  To make it stable, I used a length of rope/chain/wire connected to the tripod weight hook in the center and the other end firmly screwed into the ground with one of those corkscrew things that you can tie your pets' leash to in the yard.  This cuts a surprising amount of weight in the case of the cube and skyguider, with the skyguider now weighing, without the wedge, a mere 3lb!  It is really lighter than I imagined it to be honest.

 

So now, strengths and weaknesses.  Bear in mind I just got the skyguider, so no outdoor testing as of yet.

 

Cube pro

 

Pros

- pretty cheap if you buy the mount only, just $369.  I recommend this option, save the money and buy a good photo tripod to sit it on instead.  

- Has goto

- can be guided with an iOptron st4 adapter (I heard the new ones can't?)

 

Cons

- Clutch is rather weak.  Can be fixed but it's a dyi project

- Worm block springs also weak.  Fairly simple fix but the mount must be opened up.

- Since most of the weight leans at an angle, it can be a bit unstable

- Can carry long telephotos with careful balancing.  A small refractor like the at65edq is pushing it past its limit... and you must do the clutch and worm block mods before even attempting long lenses or refractors.

- No polar scope.  I used SGP to polar align, so this was not so much of an issue.  

 

Skyuider pro:

 

Pros:

- Smallest of the lot

- Second cheapest, at $428 for the full kit

- Extremely versatile, can be a very small barebones setup or full with counterweight.

- Can be guided, built in st4 port

- can trigger most dslrs, especially those with a 2.5mm cable.

- Carrying capacity?  No idea yet, but I put the at65edq on it inside and there is no "give" in the RA axis.  Feels better than the cube in  that respect so I am hopeful.

- Can use a hand controller to do most functions on the mount.

 

Cons

- No goto.  Not an issue usually, but when reaching the longer focal lengths framing becomes more difficult, especially if the target is really faint.

- Must have the hand controller to use the intervalometer.  It's not cheap at an extra $150

- Tracking/guiding accuracy?  Hard to say yet, but from reading other posts it seems to be close to the smarteq pro.  We'll see if it's as good.

 

Smarteq Pro

 

Pros

- Probably the most accurate of the three as far as tracking/guiding.  Even fully loaded with my setup which weighs right at 10lb it tracks and guides pretty well.

- Probably the highest payload (even though it's listed the same as the skyguider)

- Has pretty much all the bells and whistles of a full mount.  Definitely the most accurate goto between it and the cube pro

 

Cons

- Heaviest and largest of the three

- No camera control like the skyguider

- The most expensive, at $499

 

So, to summarize.

 

If you want the most inexpensive mount that can do widefield and some medium telephoto with a camera, and has goto, the cube pro is your best bang for the buck.

 

If you want the lightest, most versatile setup for backpacking for example, with the option to add the functionality of a "full" mount (minus goto, the skyguider pro would be the one I'd recommend.

 

If you want a "full" mount, with goto, guiding, etc that can handle up to a small refractor, then the smarteq pro is the way to go.

 

There are other worthy mounts out there to be sure, both withing the size/weight and price.  for example, I was really torn between the skyguider pro and the skywatcher star adventurer, which is actually cheaper and seems as versatile (or even more since it supports some timelapse functions as well), but I liked the idea of using the smarteq pro hand controller with the skyguider pro.  Trying to remember button pushes and dial settings in the dark without a manual is too much for me lol.

 

Hope this helps someone.

 

What is SGP?

[S.Boerner]

Sequence Generator Pro....http://mainsequences...software.com/  

 

Controls your camera, controls your mount, controls your dome (if you have one), starts plate solving software, interacts with autoguiding software, controls your life (if you have one after starting imaging )

[Nicole Sharp]

Sequence Generator Pro....http://mainsequences...software.com/  

 

Controls your camera, controls your mount, controls your dome (if you have one), starts plate solving software, interacts with autoguiding software, controls your life (if you have one after starting imaging )

 

Is there any free software that can assist with polar alignment without a polarscope?  Shouldn't the iOptron Go2Nova software also be able to assist with that?  If I read the manual correctly, if you just set the latitude and point it roughly north/south, you can then use any object in the sky for an iterated alignment to minimize cone error (you don't need to see or find Polaris).

Edited by Nicole Sharp, 26 July 2018 - 06:18 PM.

[Stelios]

Is there any free software that can assist with polar alignment without a polarscope?  Shouldn't the iOptron Go2Nova software also be able to assist with that?  If I read the manual correctly, if you just set the latitude and point it roughly north/south, you can then use any object in the sky for an iterated alignment to minimize cone error (you don't need to see or find Polaris).

There are several drift-alignment techniques. PhD2 (free) offers drift-alignment. 

 

The problem with drift alignment is that it's time consuming. If you're permanently mounted, no worries. If mobile, it's a pain.

 

ASPA is free with Celestron mounts, fairly fast and does not require Polaris, however it's marginal for astrophotography accuracy-wise.

[Nicole Sharp]

There are several drift-alignment techniques. PhD2 (free) offers drift-alignment. 

 

The problem with drift alignment is that it's time consuming. If you're permanently mounted, no worries. If mobile, it's a pain.

 

ASPA is free with Celestron mounts, fairly fast and does not require Polaris, however it's marginal for astrophotography accuracy-wise.

 

What is drift alignment and what is ASPA?

[Nicole Sharp]

I googled the first:  http://astropixels.c...ralignment.html

 

That sounds different that what the Go2Nova software might be doing, but I am not sure.  You do not need to be able to find or see Polaris to polar-align the CubePro.

Edited by Nicole Sharp, 26 July 2018 - 06:53 PM.

[Nicole Sharp]

I googled the second: https://www.celestro...polar-alignment

 

ASPA sounds closer to the Go2Nova Polar Iterate Align maybe, but I think the iOptron version is more accurate, since it can be iterated several times to reduce cone error.  One of the big differences between iOptron and Celestron, is that the iOptron hand controller will actually compute and display the cone error for you.  I don't think Celestron does that.

Edited by Nicole Sharp, 26 July 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Stelios]

I googled the second: https://www.celestro...polar-alignment

 

ASPA sounds closer to the Go2Nova Polar Iterate Align maybe, but I think the iOptron version is more accurate, since it can be iterated several times to reduce cone error.  One of the big differences between iOptron and Celestron, is that the iOptron hand controller will actually compute and display the cone error for you.  I don't think Celestron does that.

It gives you a self-fulfilling prophecy of how successful it was. I suspect iOptron's method is no better. But as always, the important thing is what comes out in the sub (subexposure). If you are getting tight round stars, no need to bother further. If not... drift align. (All assuming Polaris is not visible, else Sharpcap is a standout).

[WadeH237]

One of the big differences between iOptron and Celestron, is that the iOptron hand controller will actually compute and display the cone error for you.  I don't think Celestron does that.

Sure it does.

 

Celestron NexStar can tell you both the polar alignment error and the cone error after doing the alignment and calibration stars.  It can also tell you the polar alignment error after doing the polar alignment routine...except that it assumes it to be zero.  You'd need to do another two star alignment to get an updated figure for polar alignment error (because it's never actually zero in real life, on any mount).

[dciobota]

So I'm resurrecting this old thread of mine, since I have a new addition to my small family, the Skywatcher az-gti.  Here's the new lineup (I mothballed the cube pro):

 

And here's how they look disassembled into the smallest components:

(oops, I'm exceeding my size limit, see the next post)

 

As in my original post, I weighed the mounts with wedge, but no counterweight/shaft (except for the smart eq pro which has a non removable shaft).  Here are the weights:

 

SmartEq Pro:       8.2 lb

SkyGuider Pro:    4.0 lb

Az-GTI                 4.0 lb

 

Now I have no idea why the SGP weighed 4.8lb in my initial review, I'm using the same scale.  Maybe it's not that accurate.  And not sure why Sqywatcher lists the mount at 2.9lb while my scale indicates 4.0lb.  I didn't think the wedge weighed that much.  But in my hands, the Skyguider Pro (with the dec adaptor and wedge) feels exactly the same weight as the Az-gti with wedge.  Now, it can be argued that you could use a ball head instead on the Skyguider pro, but tbh, although more compact than the dec adaptor, a ballhead would not weigh a whole lot less.

 

Initial notes on the az-gti as compared with the other two.

 

Pros:

- has goto

- controlled directly via wifi (no handbox needed, just your phone/tablet/pc)

- Has access point built in (useful if you have wifi connected devices in the field)

- Dslr control via phone/tablet/pc app (intervalometer only though, no liveview or anything like that, just 2.5mm shutter cable)

- Cheapest of the lot at the base price of $379, but about the same as the Skyguider pro if you include the cost of the wedge (which is included in the Skyguider Pro).  Plus the counterweight and shaft (also included with the Skyguider pro), in which case it's slightly more.  You _could_ forego the wedge by adjusting the tripod legs instead, or using a ball head, but I don't recommend it.

- Payload capacity seems to be at least as good as the SmartEq pro, if not better (I know, the specs list them as equal paload).  Still to be determined if this is true in tracking, but slewing around it has no problem slewing around with my imaging rig on top.

- Can be guided wirelessly (via Synscan mobile ascom driver).  

- 

 

Cons:

- No polar scope.  Not a deal breaker, but imo the most glaring omission.   Yes, I understand this was originally an alt/az mount.  Maybe some day Skywatcher will sell an add on polar scope attachment?  I can still polar align using Sharpcap though.

- External power or AA batteries.  I love the internal rechargeable battery of the Skyguider pro.

 

Can't think of any other things to mention yet.  I will put it through it paces hopefully tonight, along with the Smarteq pro and, if I have time, the skyguider pro as well.  I want to test tracking and guiding accuracy.

 

 

Edited by dciobota, 26 September 2018 - 12:27 PM.

[dciobota]

Ok, this is the pic of the mounts, disassembled:

[dciobota]

Some more eye candy.  Pretty mounts, all in a row:

[dciobota]

And the test article:

 

In the pic:

 

AT65EDQ

2" dslr adaptor

Geoptik DSLR/T mount adaptor 

ASI1600mc-cooled

QHY 30mm ultra mini guidescope with rings and finder dovetail

ASI290mm mini

 

I didn't include a pic of the stick pc and the wifi router (to use with the smarteq pro and skyguider pro).  In this test I will use the stick PC connected to the az-gti access point.

 

Note: I know some of you are wondering why I got a dslr adapter for the scope and then bought the geoptik adapter to connect to the camera when I could simply connect the camera directly to the focuser (has a t thread).  The answer is, I'm lazy.  I wanted a camera setup where I could swap from a lens to the scope in seconds.  Also, if I wanted to use my mirrorless camera instead of the asi it would swap the same way.  The number one rule in this game is to keep things as simple as possible, and this to me is the simplest way.  I can pack my kit with lenses or scope and never have to worry about what adaptor I left at home.

 

Note 2: I don't really like the geoptik adapter, it's pretty finnicky for getting the tightness just right.  Plus I am now suspecting it's introducing some tilt in my images.  But it has two things I like, the tripod foot (handy for attaching a dovetail to use with lenses) and the finder saddle, which allows me to mount the guidescope on it for guiding while I image via lenses.  I have a somewhat different yet simple arrangement for using my mirrorless camera with the guider and lenses.

 

Hope this helps.

[SteveInNZ]

What is the weight of your imaging setup ? As shown, is that enough counterweight on the Az-gti ?

Am I correct in thinking that guiding is only possible via wifi ?

Do you have the means to measure the current draw ? 

 

I'm looking forward to your comparison. I have a Star Adventurer filling that niche at the moment so it will be interesting to see if this would be a better option for me.

 

Steve.

[dciobota]

Hi Steve, I just weighed my imaging rig, totally forgot to do that at lunch.  It's 8.8 lb, so still well within the payload limit.  With the counterweight I am showing for the az-gti (came off an iOptron cube, actually it's very similar to the skyguider pro weight) it is just a little top heavy still, but not terrible.  We'll see how it performs, hopefully tonight.  But slewing around it had no issues. 

 

As to guiding.  You can also buy the synscan handset, then you can guide through the handset as well using a serial adapter.  Actually the handset provides all the capabilities you get through wifi.  I am actually intrigued about that, because if I remember correctly eqmod connects through the synscan port.  So it's theoretically feasible maybe to connect to the mount direct via eqmod, in which case you won't need the handset at all and you can connect your pc/laptop directly to the mount (and guide as well I think).  This is my first foray into the Skywatcher world, so it's all new to me.  I'm hoping someone will be brave enough to try this at some point.

 

Hope this helps.

[sketchism]

great comparison, ive been using the sky guider pro with auto guiding lately and its been doing well, i chose it because im going to africa shortly and am extremely limited on space

[dciobota]

Very nice setup!

Btw, if you're interested, there is a whole thread on the skyguider pro:

https://www.cloudyni...cs-you-name-it/

 

It is a very capable mount indeed.

[Myk Rian]

The counterweight rod does come out of the SmartEQ. Remove the DEC dovetail. There are bolts in the ends of the rod. Remove one of them and slide the rod out the other end.

Edited by Myk Rian, 26 September 2018 - 08:26 PM.