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Eyepiece Discontinuations

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#1 BarrySimon615

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:01 PM

I read something a few days ago on another thread here about some upcoming Televue discontinuations.  Tried to find it and cannot so I was wondering if anyone had some hard information about this.

 

What I do remember reading is that it would be a few eyepieces in the Nagler Type 6 series.  That series currently consist of the 2.5, 3.5, 5 , 7, 9, 11 and 13 mm eyepieces.  If other discontinuations can be used as a guide over the past few years (from Televue), we have seen the 26 mm type 5, the 20 mm type 5 and the 12 mm type 4 go bye-bye.  Why?  Only Televue can answer that question correctly, but my speculation boils down to poor sales of these eyepieces coupled with a similar or better performance from another Televue eyepiece with a similar focal length.  In the case of the 26 mm Nagler, the magnification increase in going from the 31 Nagler Type 5 to the 22 mm Type 4 is just about 41% so the 26 Nagler has steps that are really too small in going from the 31 Nagler to 26 mm, and then too small again in going from 26 mm to 22 mm.  In addition the 27 Panoptic which is very close in focal length and while it does not have a field of view as wide as the 26 Nagler, it is plenty wide enough and many find it to be an easier eyepiece to look thru and more affordable.  Pretty much the same story with the Nagler 20 mm Type 5.  It sat between the 17 mm and 22 mm Nagler Type 4's which already represented a  magnification step already a bit close at 29%.  The Type 4"s all have good eye relief, better than the 20 mm Type 5, so the 20 mm Type 5  probably had mediocre sales  The 3rd eyepiece discontinued recently was the 12mm Type 4, with a hybrid barrel.  I think the last hybrid barrel Televue.  Additionally the Type 6 line competed with the 12mm Type 4 with both the 11 mm type 6 and the 13 mm type 6 as well as with the 12 mm Delos.  Once again, with all the competition, sales of the 20 mm Type 5 were probably poor.

 

So what about the Type 6 Naglers?  If it is true that one or more will be discontinued, what is most llikely to go?  My opinion would tell me that those on the chopping block could include the 2.5 mm as we can get there with a 2x barlow and a 5 mm Type 6 and do it with better eye relief.  Others that might be expendable would include the 9 mm and the 13 mm.  Why?  Magnification steps - in going from the 16 mm Type 5 to the 11 mm Type 6, the magnification increase is 45%, and in going from the 11 mm to the 7 mm the magnification increase with any telescope is 57%, perhaps a stiff jump, increasing magnification in going from the 16 mm to the 13 mm is just  23% and in going from the 13 mm to the 11 mm is only 18%.  With the 9 mm  inserted between the 11 mm and the 7 mm we have a 22% between the 11 mm and the 9 mm and 28.5% between the 9 mm and the 7 mm.  I guess an argument could be made to keep the 9 mm, but not the 13 mm as having both the 11 mm Type 6 and the 16 mm Type 5 makes it expendable.

 

However this is just my speculation, what do you think?

 

Barry Simon



#2 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:14 PM

Barry:

 

I just don't know.  I have the 9mm, 7mm, 5mm and 3.5mm.  For my scopes, those provide a nice range of mid to high magnifications and if I need more, the Barlow with the 5mm and the 3.5mm provides as high a magnifications as I ever use.  

 

My other eyepieces in this range are the 8mm Ethos, the 12mm Type 2 Nagler and the 13mm Ethos. The 8mm Ethos makes the 9mm somewhat redundant but it's still has it's place.  I wouldn't mind having the 13mm and maybe even the 11mm type 6.  I've considered the 2.5mm and it would probably make sense for the NP-101 because it would go along way in eliminating the barlow but I'm not going to spend the money,.  

 

Maybe Don knows and can post that information.

 

Jon



#3 rguasto

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:16 PM

The two I am aware of are the 2.5mm T6 and 11mm T6. I received an email from Agena stating their phase out this year.

-Rob
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#4 BarrySimon615

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:44 PM

Well, it looks like I got one of them "correctly guessed", the 2.5 mm.  Interesting that the 11 mm is being phased out as I believe it is the newest of the Type 6 Naglers.  Then again I believe the 26 mm Type 5 was the newest in that series, and it did not last.  Last December would have been the time to "stock up" on a few (or more) of the 11 mm Nagler Type 6's for future re-sale because sure as shooting, as soon as something like this is discontinued, demand goes up.  Saw it happen with the Celestron C5 (several times) and the AstroTech AT111.  Also the University Optics "volcano top" orthoscopic eyepieces. 

 

Addendum:  Interesting - Agena does not list the 11 Nagler Type 6 at all < correction, now found and they have a half dozen.  While Astronomics does list it, it is not in stock.  Not in stock at OPT as well, however it is in stock as of a few minutes ago at Eyepieces ETC., and HighPoint.

 

Barry Simon


Edited by BarrySimon615, 11 February 2018 - 11:25 PM.


#5 havasman

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 09:48 PM

I am really happy to have a 2.5T6 for those nights, and THEY DO OCCUR at my dark site, when max magnification is available. It's a valuable contributor @ 839x in the Starmaster. 

I understand that many never get those nights and so the ep may go away. 

Sometimes I have unloaded ep's not often used but the 3.5T6 and 2.5T6 will finish their lives in my kit at least as long as I have any input into the matter. They're excellent performers.

There's much more competition around the 11mm focal length. But the T6's are estimable by any reasonable measure.


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#6 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:34 AM

I am really happy to have a 2.5T6 for those nights, and THEY DO OCCUR at my dark site, when max magnification is available. It's a valuable contributor @ 839x in the Starmaster. 

I understand that many never get those nights and so the ep may go away. 

Sometimes I have unloaded ep's not often used but the 3.5T6 and 2.5T6 will finish their lives in my kit at least as long as I have any input into the matter. They're excellent performers.

There's much more competition around the 11mm focal length. But the T6's are estimable by any reasonable measure.

 

For me , since there is no 1.75 mm, I'm OK Barlowing both the 5 mm and the 3.5 mm when appropriate. 

 

Jon


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#7 astro744

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:23 PM

I'm surprised the 2.5mm Nagler has been discontinued as there is now nothing under 3mm, (DeLite and Nagler Zoom) and with one of Tele Vue's flagship products, the NP 101 and previous variants with 540mm/f5.4 optics where every 0.5mm counts, it will be missed.  One can only speculate that perhaps there is something else coming, a 2.7mm Ethos SX maybe?  Imagine that; 0.55 degrees at 200x with the 101 would make for a great Lunar orbitor experience!

 

I find the 216x very nice on planets with the 2.5 Nagler and the jump to 154x with the 3.5 Nagler often too much.  The 4-2mm Nagler Zoom fills that cap nicely especially when wanting to push beyond 180x which is the limit of the 6-3 Nagler Zoom when used with the 101 but it too has been discontinued for some time now.

 

The 2.5mm gives me a 0.45mm exit pupil which is approaching my personal preferred limit of around 0.4mm mainly due to eye floaters but image brightness on planets is more than adequate at this magnification level.

 



#8 payner

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:27 PM

I made a post last week since someone was contemplating getting one of the focal lengths.  Once current stock of the 2.5- and 11-mm is exhausted there will be no more.  That was from an email from Agena.

 

Randy


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#9 BGazing

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:55 PM

I'm surprised the 2.5mm Nagler has been discontinued as there is now nothing under 3mm, (DeLite and Nagler Zoom) and with one of Tele Vue's flagship products, the NP 101 and previous variants with 540mm/f5.4 optics where every 0.5mm counts, it will be missed.  One can only speculate that perhaps there is something else coming, a 2.7mm Ethos SX maybe?  Imagine that; 0.55 degrees at 200x with the 101 would make for a great Lunar orbitor experience!

 

I find the 216x very nice on planets with the 2.5 Nagler and the jump to 154x with the 3.5 Nagler often too much.  The 4-2mm Nagler Zoom fills that cap nicely especially when wanting to push beyond 180x which is the limit of the 6-3 Nagler Zoom when used with the 101 but it too has been discontinued for some time now.

 

The 2.5mm gives me a 0.45mm exit pupil which is approaching my personal preferred limit of around 0.4mm mainly due to eye floaters but image brightness on planets is more than adequate at this magnification level.

Having recently acquired three T6 eyepieces (3.5, 11 and 13mm), I am so pleased with them and the way they fit particular needs that I am somewhat puzzled, at least when it comes to 11mm.

Okay, 2.5mm is a niche product, but definitely something cool for those short f/l dobs and fracs. I never pulled a trigger to acquire one and stopped at 3.5mm for my 71/400 Borg. 3.5mm will probably be the tops for the upcoming 100DC Tak as well. 2.5mm realistically calls for a f/5 or a f4 instrument, and then it will push it to 400x at least...and most folks' seeing will not support it.

11mm, on the other hand. Well, in dobs and fracs it does not make much of a jump, so I see the point. In my SCT it does, at 2233mm focal lenght it jumps from 171x to 203x, and that does make a difference and does depend on the seeing. But dobs and fracs are, I guess, bread and butter. At least I have a collector's item thanks to RaKing. grin.gif

Btw, there is something cute about T6s, for lack of a better word. They are compact, have an iffy eye relief, bad caps (like all TV eyepices), but there is something cool about them that ES 82s are lacking. Even Delos is not cool, it is technically perfect, but not cool. T6s own it.


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#10 Starman1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:37 PM

The 11mm is usually skipped over.  The typical jump is 13mm to 9mm.

The 11mm has been one of the poorest sellers all along.


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#11 Alan French

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:49 PM

Once discontinued, the 11mm Nagler 6 will suddenly become a mythical, much sought after and highly desired eyepiece.

 

Clear skies, Alan


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#12 John O'Hara

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:01 PM

I use the 11 Nag. T-6 with the 2.5 Powermate in my 7" Starmaster.  The combo gives 219x, a good planetary magnification that can be used on many nights.



#13 jeffmac

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:42 PM

The 11mm is usually skipped over.  The typical jump is 13mm to 9mm.
The 11mm has been one of the poorest sellers all along.


Yep. I have 5, 9 and 13T6's.

#14 astro744

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:44 PM

Tele Vue Eyepieces for Tele Vue Refractors at http://www.televue.c...n=Advice&id=220 still shows the 2.5mm Type 6 Nagler as a recommended eyepiece for the TV-76, NP-101 and TV-60 (below).

 

It is really nice in the TV-60 giving 144x and an optimal minimum exit pupil for me personally although I usually use the 4-2mm Nagler Zoom (discontinued).  I wonder if anything will replace the 2.5mm Type 6 Nagler.  Maybe a 2.7mm Ethos SX or maybe the T6 are all to be replaced with a 2-13mm 82 deg. Nagler Zoom.  Either one would be a nice eyepiece!

 



#15 SteveG

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:11 PM

Once discontinued, the 11mm Nagler 6 will suddenly become a mythical, much sought after and highly desired eyepiece.

 

Clear skies, Alan

Much like the original, Type 1, 11 mm.


Edited by SteveG, 12 February 2018 - 09:11 PM.


#16 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:25 PM

I think there will still be an active used market in T-6's. My guess is that they are seeing pressure from the Delos eyepieces with their more comfortable eye relief.  I had been pondering putting together the entire set of T-6's, I need the 2.5, the 11 and the 13, along with the 16mm T-5 I have, that would be a nice set of 1.25 inch eyepieces. 

 

Jon 



#17 Starman1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:43 PM

Does TV have a T7 Nagler series up their sleeve with long eye relief?

Or do they think 31..22..17/16..13..9..7..5..3.5 might be enough Naglers to make a set?

I'd bet on the latter.


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#18 jakecru

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:10 AM

Does TV have a T7 Nagler series up their sleeve with long eye relief?

Or do they think 31..22..17/16..13..9..7..5..3.5 might be enough Naglers to make a set?

I'd bet on the latter.

 

I am hoping its a T7 Nagler series!!!! A eyepiece series 17-20 mm in eye relief, physically bigger than a Delos but a bit smaller than the Ethos, with the same coatings and eyepiece design technology used in the Delos/Ethos.



#19 Redbetter

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 02:21 AM

I picked up the 11mm two years ago when I realized that the 9mm was just too much for typical seeing in valley at focal lengths of 2000 to 2500mm.  In areas with better seeing I had not really needed it.  It got a lot of use for a year; but now that I have some better seeing at a high altitude site, I am back to using a 9mm as a mainstay, with the 11 getting less use again except on poorer nights--a good tag team.  But before I started using that site, I ended up adding the 13T6 specifically because of seeing limitations, with the 13 getting more use in winter in the valley when even the 11 was pushing it too far.

 

So I lament the end of the 11, but I doubt it was getting much love at in the common Dob 1200 - 1500 mm focal length range...so many other options for such a low/middling power.   And I doubt it was employed much in refractor focal lengths so I would expect the more likely market to be similar to the niche I found myself in, 8" to 11" SCT's or long focal length Dobs with challenging seeing.

 

The 2.5 is definitely more of a niche eyepiece since it produces a very small exit pupil even at f/5.  It has some utility for tight double stars in my refractors, and I have been able to employ it some in the f/6 60mm ED on planets, primarily for image scale since it provides 144x while the 3mm end of the Nagler zoom is only 120x.  I can't say that it is providing more planetary/lunar detail at 0.42mm exit pupil than the zoom at 0.5mm, but the scale is helpful for comparisons.  It also frees up the 3-6 zoom to be used in another refractor, typically at 4mm setting in the f/7.5 80ED or f/7 110ED.      

 

I like the form factor of the T6's compared to the Delos and Ethos, which in the case of a sub-3mm would weigh in about 0.6 pounds heavier and 2 inches longer from what I can tell.


Edited by Redbetter, 13 February 2018 - 03:46 AM.


#20 Deep13

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 03:20 AM

Too bad they are cutting down on the T6s. I've got a 13 and a 24 Pan. for my DIY airline portable 6" f/5. Those two plus a 2.2x Barlow make the portable eyepiece case. I've suspected that an 11 might be a better fit for that scope than the 13, so I just ordered one from Astronomics. If it works out, I'll likely sell the 13 since I have a 14 Delos (too heavy for the 6", but great for the 12.5".)
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#21 Deep13

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 03:29 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath on any T7s. I suspect one of the driving concerns here is manufacturing costs. I addition to some superior qualities in use, I suspect the newest designs are easier to make than the Naglers.



#22 Allan Wade

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:27 AM

T7’s would cost a lot for TeleVue to develop for no net gain, as they would probably poach sales from the Ethos and Delos.


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#23 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 05:16 AM

T7’s would cost a lot for TeleVue to develop for no net gain, as they would probably poach sales from the Ethos and Delos.

 

:waytogo:

 

At one time not so long ago,  the T-5 and T-6 Naglers were the best UWA's one could buy .There were no Ethos eyepieces, there were no Delos eyepieces . These two eyepiece lines have been encroaching on the Nagler sales.  

 

I am not seeing a line of T-7s with 18 mm of eye relief . These would necessarily be large and expensive eyepieces because of the large diameter eye lens required. Much of the appeal of the T-6s is the compact size .

 

Jon


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#24 Redbetter

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 05:26 AM

It is hard to imagine what a T7, T8 (I dub the "Tate") etc. Nagler would look like since TV have done the Delos and Ethos. 

  • The T6's and most of the predecessor Naglers were in the ~12mm eye relief range except for some scaled varieties and one-offs (each T4).   
  • Al Nagler has turned over most of the design to Dellechiaie with two lines bearing his name in one way or the other. 
  • The Delos are somewhat narrower field than Naglers, but with 20mm eye relief for eyeglass wearers and allowing room for Dioptrx 
  • The Ethos define a whole different class with 15mm eye relief, and Dioptrx compatible. 

I guess the T6's could be replaced by a slightly longer eye relief (~15mm) Nagler field line with full Dioptrx compatibility, but as Allan notes it would poach the other two categories.  And it would likely be more expensive than the Delos.  The size might be intermediate with the shorter eye relief and wider field than the Delos, so that might have some appeal. 

 

Comfortable eye relief 20 years ago was 12mm.  Coming from short focal length Plossl's, Orthos, etc. with miniscule eye relief, 12mm was generous.  But now folks expect to be able to take in wide fields with their glasses on.  This is a problem for those of us not using glasses because the eye relief becomes too long, with extra reflections and difficulties with best eye placement.  On the other hand, it looks like Dioptrx takes a bit more than 12mm to avoid glasses altogether. 

 

So here we are.  I am glad I got my set together before the eyeglass contingent won.


Edited by Redbetter, 13 February 2018 - 05:26 AM.

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#25 Sarkikos

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:47 AM

Barry:

 

I just don't know.  I have the 9mm, 7mm, 5mm and 3.5mm.  For my scopes, those provide a nice range of mid to high magnifications and if I need more, the Barlow with the 5mm and the 3.5mm provides as high a magnifications as I ever use.  

 

My other eyepieces in this range are the 8mm Ethos, the 12mm Type 2 Nagler and the 13mm Ethos. The 8mm Ethos makes the 9mm somewhat redundant but it's still has it's place.  I wouldn't mind having the 13mm and maybe even the 11mm type 6.  I've considered the 2.5mm and it would probably make sense for the NP-101 because it would go along way in eliminating the barlow but I'm not going to spend the money,.  

 

Maybe Don knows and can post that information.

 

Jon

The only Naglers I have are the 2.5 and the 31.  The rest of the range is covered by Ethos and other eyepieces. 

 

I bought a used 2.5 Nagler years ago, sold it a couple years later.  A couple years after that, I decided to buy another one, a new one this time. 

 

A 2.5mm well-corrected eyepiece with 82 degrees AFOV, in a small format.  I don't use it often.  I use the 31 much more.  But it's nice to have the 2.5 in the box when I need it for viewing planets and double stars on nontracking scopes.  That's the only kind of scope I use now.  Also, I don't like fiddling with Barlows.

 

Apparently Tele Vue is going to discontinue the 2.5.  Get one now, new or used.  If you buy used later, it'll probably be at higher prices.

 

Mike


Edited by Sarkikos, 13 February 2018 - 07:57 AM.



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