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Post your Pixinsight Processing Flow!

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#176 Hawkdl2

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 02:49 PM

Chris,  Your workflows were very helpful for a mosaic I completed with data from last year, but I've only just started collecting DarkFlats to use instead of Bias frames for my ASI1600mm, and I am a  bit confused after trying to understand their application as described in your workflow.   If DarkFlats are essentially the same as a bias frame, as you point out, why do you then use them as a Master Dark in flat frame calibration, rather than as a Master Bias frame in ImageCalibration  (see your Figure 11). 

 

Larry


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#177 cfosterstars

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 11:41 AM

Chris,  Your workflows were very helpful for a mosaic I completed with data from last year, but I've only just started collecting DarkFlats to use instead of Bias frames for my ASI1600mm, and I am a  bit confused after trying to understand their application as described in your workflow.   If DarkFlats are essentially the same as a bias frame, as you point out, why do you then use them as a Master Dark in flat frame calibration, rather than as a Master Bias frame in ImageCalibration  (see your Figure 11). 

 

Larry

This issue here is understanding what each of the types of calibration steps do. If you use a master bias on the lightframe, then you need to subract that from the flat and the dark frames or you will remove it twice. The thing is you only want to subtract the bias information from the light frames once. If you use the flatbark and calibrate the flat with it then you are removing both the small about of dark current (since its such a short exposure) and the bias offset since it also in the flatdark. So your master flat has both the dark and bias information removed when you divide the light by the flat. With a flat dark, you dont remove the bias from the dark, you just integrate them. You also dont scale the dark frame - they have to be the same exposure, temperature and gain as the lights. That why when you subract the dark from the light, you also remove not only the dark current, but also the bais. If you do this incorrectly, you can end up subracting the bias twice or dividing the light by the bias - both of which are a bad calibration. Does this make since to you?

 

HEre is another like from the deepskystacker website that has some flow charts:

 

http://deepskystacke...htm#Calibration

 

I think I will add something like this to my book.


Edited by cfosterstars, 14 June 2020 - 12:27 PM.


#178 Hawkdl2

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 03:20 PM

Chris,

 

Thanks for the explanation.  I might not have explained my questions well.  I have a pretty good understanding of calibration and calibration frames, at least I thought so.  Let me try again:

 

Until now, I removed bias signal from my flats with a Master Bias, but not from either Lights or Darks.  My Master Dark, therefore, contains bias and dark current, and therefore removes both from the Lights when the Master Dark is subtracted from the Lights.  As I understand it, that is the fairly common approach to calibration.  However, since my ASI1600 suffers from the odd bias frame issue I decided to try the FlatDarks approach, instead of using a Master Bias.  My uncertainty is over whether that FlatDark should be treated as a [modified] Master Bias or as a "short" Dark.  Since Bias frames technically do contain a small amount of dark current, albeit a very small amount, and dependent on the minimum exposure time of the camera, in my mind Biases, FlatDarks and Darks are essentially all the same - they all contain bias and varying amounts of dark current.  There are a number of lengthy threads on FlatDarks debating more or less that point, and making the argument that the amount of DC subtracted from Flats with a 0.1sec (or so) FlatDark would have no practical effect when that calibrated flat was subsequently divided into the Light frames, and therefore a FlatDark can be treated as a Bias.  If those points are true, then it seems that treating the FlatDark as a Bias makes sense and I can see why one would assume that the FlatDark should be added to PI's "ImageCalibration" for Flats as a Bias, and not as a Dark, though I'm not entirely certain it matters.  I can't find any thread where this point is raised, but noticed you add it as a dark. Hence the question in my earlier post - why as a Dark Rather than as a Bias?

 

Larry


Edited by Hawkdl2, 14 June 2020 - 03:25 PM.


#179 cfosterstars

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 05:52 PM

Chris,

 

Thanks for the explanation.  I might not have explained my questions well.  I have a pretty good understanding of calibration and calibration frames, at least I thought so.  Let me try again:

 

Until now, I removed bias signal from my flats with a Master Bias, but not from either Lights or Darks.  My Master Dark, therefore, contains bias and dark current, and therefore removes both from the Lights when the Master Dark is subtracted from the Lights.  As I understand it, that is the fairly common approach to calibration.  However, since my ASI1600 suffers from the odd bias frame issue I decided to try the FlatDarks approach, instead of using a Master Bias.  My uncertainty is over whether that FlatDark should be treated as a [modified] Master Bias or as a "short" Dark.  Since Bias frames technically do contain a small amount of dark current, albeit a very small amount, and dependent on the minimum exposure time of the camera, in my mind Biases, FlatDarks and Darks are essentially all the same - they all contain bias and varying amounts of dark current.  There are a number of lengthy threads on FlatDarks debating more or less that point, and making the argument that the amount of DC subtracted from Flats with a 0.1sec (or so) FlatDark would have no practical effect when that calibrated flat was subsequently divided into the Light frames, and therefore a FlatDark can be treated as a Bias.  If those points are true, then it seems that treating the FlatDark as a Bias makes sense and I can see why one would assume that the FlatDark should be added to PI's "ImageCalibration" for Flats as a Bias, and not as a Dark, though I'm not entirely certain it matters.  I can't find any thread where this point is raised, but noticed you add it as a dark. Hence the question in my earlier post - why as a Dark Rather than as a Bias?

 

Larry

THe MasterFlatDark is both a master Bias and short MasterDark. Did you look at the link? There are many way to calibrate the data that are mathematically equivalent. In the Image calibration the bias and the dark are subtracted from the LIght. SO the darkflat could go either place, but it depends on how you calibrate or not your darks or flats. The FlatDark is a dark and not a bias since it can be as long a 10 s vsl 0.001s or less for a true bias. IT is NOT really a bias and should not be treated as such. 



#180 cfosterstars

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Posted 11 July 2020 - 04:23 PM

I have received feed back that my images are too poor resolution. This was an effect of reducing the file size and compressing the images. I will go back to previous versions and try and replace the images with the originals, but this will take a lot of time. However, It will be worth it. I ami working a several wide field mosaics at the moment that I took with a Canon 135mm lens in both RGB and Ha/OIII/SII. I also have two galaxy sets from my SCT for M63 and M101 to finish. I am also about to receive my ASI6200MM-PRO full frame mono CMOS camera. If there  are any new things I find as I am completing these projects, I will add them to the book. Any other suggested topics, let me know.


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#181 Linwood

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 07:49 AM

 

The book is now 297 pages with 384 illustrations and screen captures. I also include my basic process icon set.

 

THANK YOU!

 

I can't tell you how happy I am to stumble across this.  I think I must be the only person in the world who hates video tutorials, and still loves the written word. While there's great content in videos, people talk so darn slowly, and spend so much time on belaboring pointless stuff (I must have spent 2 minutes in one video while someone just dragged and dropped shortcuts around the screen to show it could be done). 

 

I have been trialing Astro Pixel Processor and wanted to try Pixinsight, and needed some kind of recipe book to get started.  I am just starting to look through it, but it's a BOOK and for that, many thanks!

 

PS. To all who make videos, I know there are some who love them, indeed who have trouble reading.   I mean no offense.  it's just that I am surprised how almost uniformly astrophotography tutorials are video vs written.  Maybe it's the Youtube ad money.


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#182 MikeCMP

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 08:16 AM

I agree - I am using APP and Startools, but have been looking at this "book" to maybe trial PI. the written word to me is sop much easier - i can go at my pace, and go back easily. 

 

Really appreciate the effort that has gone into this. 

 

Mike


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#183 cfosterstars

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 11:25 AM

THANK YOU!

 

I can't tell you how happy I am to stumble across this.  I think I must be the only person in the world who hates video tutorials, and still loves the written word. While there's great content in videos, people talk so darn slowly, and spend so much time on belaboring pointless stuff (I must have spent 2 minutes in one video while someone just dragged and dropped shortcuts around the screen to show it could be done). 

 

I have been trialing Astro Pixel Processor and wanted to try Pixinsight, and needed some kind of recipe book to get started.  I am just starting to look through it, but it's a BOOK and for that, many thanks!

 

PS. To all who make videos, I know there are some who love them, indeed who have trouble reading.   I mean no offense.  it's just that I am surprised how almost uniformly astrophotography tutorials are video vs written.  Maybe it's the Youtube ad money.

 

 

I agree - I am using APP and Startools, but have been looking at this "book" to maybe trial PI. the written word to me is sop much easier - i can go at my pace, and go back easily. 

 

Really appreciate the effort that has gone into this. 

 

Mike

Thank you. I am also available to answer questions and help out. I am still working on this and adding new parts to it. Right now I am processing multiple mosaic images that is very time consuming. I actually have seven data sets to finish. I also just got a new ASI6200MM-PRO with Chroma 3nm filters for my SCT and will be adding anything new I learn with that camera. I have also been doing a lot of wide field with Canon lens and that is really fun.


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#184 Linwood

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 11:32 AM

I have also been doing a lot of wide field with Canon lens and that is really fun.

My most interesting attempts so far have been with a Sony camera lens and body, not anything specifically astro other than a mount.  I'm astounded what you can "see" as you pile up the exposures.  It's one area I struggle in figuring stuff out, as a lot of the info online assumes you are shooting with filters and separate color/lum exposures, though the OSC introduction made that better.

 

I'm going through a (probably not) final pass through APP, then going to try a trial of Pixinsight and work through your book, then probably loop back to DSS.  I need to PICK ONE and stop jumping around, but it's tough.



#185 cfosterstars

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 08:33 PM

My most interesting attempts so far have been with a Sony camera lens and body, not anything specifically astro other than a mount.  I'm astounded what you can "see" as you pile up the exposures.  It's one area I struggle in figuring stuff out, as a lot of the info online assumes you are shooting with filters and separate color/lum exposures, though the OSC introduction made that better.

 

I'm going through a (probably not) final pass through APP, then going to try a trial of Pixinsight and work through your book, then probably loop back to DSS.  I need to PICK ONE and stop jumping around, but it's tough.

I started with Images plus and photoshop. I made the plunge to PixInsight and have never looked back. I did this image with PI and a 50mm Canon Lens in Narrowband with a ASI1600MM-COOL camera:

OrionWF LSHO SMI

 

 

 


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#186 apNoob

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 01:15 PM

Chris,

 

thank you very much for the fantastic work ! Myself I have done a couple tutorials (in a completely different area) and they were very similar in a style (but not so comprehensive !), so it was almost like reading my own text - very easy to follow !

 

I’m just starting, so have a few questions anyway, the first one for now, if you don’t mind :)

 

You are saying - “Both flat frames and flat dark frames also depend on the optical path and optics”. Question - how dark frames can depend on the optical path if there is no light in the path ???


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#187 Astrovetteman

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Posted 03 October 2020 - 12:20 PM

I just got an ASI6200MM a month ago and have always used CCDs and Pixinsight. I’ve been looking for a great tutorial on processing CMOS data and I FINALLY FOUND IT!! Thanks 🙏🏻 so much for this comprehensive write up!! I’ve only had a chance to take a couple of sets of data with the new camera, and I’m still doing some tweaks to the spacing/tilt. I’m going to reprocess my set of data of NGC281 I took in NB using your workflow!
Thanks so much!!
Tom

#188 OrionNebula32

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 05:25 PM

Ha and OIII (bicolor)

- WBPP
- ABE
- ARCSINH
- HISTO STRETCH
- RANGE SELECTION
- STAR ALIGN CHANNELS
- DYNAMIC CROP
- MORE STRETCH ON Oiii

- PIXELMATH

- CURVES ADJUST
THEN WHATEVER ELSE TO SUIT YOUR TASTE

I might have missed a couple processes in there if I remember afterwards that I did I will add asterisk to my addition *
 

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#189 cfosterstars

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 01:52 PM

I just got an ASI6200MM a month ago and have always used CCDs and Pixinsight. I’ve been looking for a great tutorial on processing CMOS data and I FINALLY FOUND IT!! Thanks so much for this comprehensive write up!! I’ve only had a chance to take a couple of sets of data with the new camera, and I’m still doing some tweaks to the spacing/tilt. I’m going to reprocess my set of data of NGC281 I took in NB using your workflow!
Thanks so much!!
Tom

I just finished collecting my full dark frame library for my new ASI6200MM-PRO. I am paring it with and OPTEC IFW with two interchangable 5-position 50mm filter wheels, an OPTEC Sagitta OAG, a QHY5-III 274 guide camera, a Pegasus Astro rotator and my AP telecompressor for my Meade 10" ACT SCT. All the parts are here, but I have to finish up some projects to create a break on the rig. Fun times.



#190 cfosterstars

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 01:54 PM

Chris,

 

thank you very much for the fantastic work ! Myself I have done a couple tutorials (in a completely different area) and they were very similar in a style (but not so comprehensive !), so it was almost like reading my own text - very easy to follow !

 

I’m just starting, so have a few questions anyway, the first one for now, if you don’t mind smile.gif

 

You are saying - “Both flat frames and flat dark frames also depend on the optical path and optics”. Question - how dark frames can depend on the optical path if there is no light in the path ???

Where am I saying this? That is not correct. Can you give me the page. The Flat and light frames depend on the path and if you change something like a filter or compressor, you need to retake flats with a different exposure. IF you do that, you WILL need new complementary flat darks to go with the new flat frame exposure times.



#191 apNoob

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 02:17 PM

Where am I saying this? That is not correct. Can you give me the page.

Bottom of the page 35, document version 2.4 from May 30, 2020



#192 cfosterstars

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Posted 15 October 2020 - 07:46 PM

Bottom of the page 35, document version 2.4 from May 30, 2020

OK, so the reason the FlatDarks depend on the optical path is because they have to be the same exposure conditions as the flats themselves and the Flats depend on the optical path. So if you change the optical path, you will have a different time for each flat frame for each filter than is different than the previous optical path. If you add or remove a reducer, the flat will need to change. Since the flats exposures change, the corresponding FlatDarks will also change.



#193 George P Dunham

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 02:27 PM

Hmmmmm.  I am looking for a graphic workflow (pdf) with screen shots of each step for calibrating a set of CMOS (ASI1600mm) images.  I know there are many many variables but I need a working starting point.  Please not the books, lectures, videos, articles and other great references.

 

I am not a beginner!  I am new to CMOS though and have run into trouble producing a good calibrated image with my usual software (nebulosity) and need to move into PI which I have had for years but always drift away due to the ease of nebulosity and relative complexity of PI.

 

I am not looking for hows and whys.  I am looking for a clear and concise path to start with and learn from that path.  I am viewing the plethora of videos which are great but I need a hand held graphic primer to sit at my computer with. 

 

I know this is a lot to ask for and I am not look for a brow beating. 

 

Looking at Christopher Fosters book right now.  Amazing work.


Edited by George P Dunham, 19 October 2020 - 02:32 PM.

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#194 starhunter50

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 02:44 PM

Hmmmmm.  I am looking for a graphic workflow (pdf) with screen shots of each step for calibrating a set of CMOS (ASI1600mm) images.  I know there are many many variables but I need a working starting point.  Please not the books, lectures, videos, articles and other great references.

 

I am not a beginner!  I am new to CMOS though and have run into trouble producing a good calibrated image with my usual software (nebulosity) and need to move into PI which I have had for years but always drift away due to the ease of nebulosity and relative complexity of PI.

 

I am not looking for hows and whys.  I am looking for a clear and concise path to start with and learn from that path.  I am viewing the plethora of videos which are great but I need a hand held graphic primer to sit at my computer with. 

 

I know this is a lot to ask for and I am not look for a brow beating. 

 

Looking at Christopher Fosters book right now.  Amazing work.

Try this to get you off the ground Pix wise.
https://www.youtube....b_channel=Mitch

 



#195 George P Dunham

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 02:50 PM

Chris,  Your workflows were very helpful for a mosaic I completed with data from last year, but I've only just started collecting DarkFlats to use instead of Bias frames for my ASI1600mm, and I am a  bit confused after trying to understand their application as described in your workflow.   If DarkFlats are essentially the same as a bias frame, as you point out, why do you then use them as a Master Dark in flat frame calibration, rather than as a Master Bias frame in ImageCalibration  (see your Figure 11). 

 

Larry

Larry...I am new to CMOS imaging.  I have a ASI1600mm as you do.  I have requested on this thread a concise workflow for calibration.  I am wondering if you have masted calibrating with this camera and could share the work flow and settings with me?  Thanks George


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#196 Linwood

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 02:53 PM

Hmmmmm.  I am looking for a graphic workflow (pdf) with screen shots of each step for calibrating a set of CMOS (ASI1600mm) images. ....

I have nothing like what you are asking, but it seems like you are drawing a pretty specific circle as knowing what you are doing but wanting to know precisely what to do; that may be difficult to walk.

 

If you do NOT find exactly what you want (sorry I cannot help), one thing that might help is to elaborate a bit on what parts you are missing.

 

I take it you know you need to calibrate with some combination of bias, flat, dark and dark flat (I don't know the camera so no recommendations whether you can leave off dark flats in favor of bias for example). 

 

With respect to Pixinsight, my (beginner) understanding is for OSC cameras you calibrate everything BEFORE you debayer -- blink, calibrate the lights, and do cosmetic corrections; then you debayer, then you move on to subframe selection, send the approved to star alignment, then integration, then drizzle integration (optionally). 

 

My (beginner) understanding is the for OSC cameras it is generally better to check CFA everywhere you see it, and do drizzle integration even if not needed otherwise (checking CFA). 

 

I don't know if this level of steps is helpful or annoying; sorry.  Trying.



#197 George P Dunham

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 03:19 PM

Yes...I am looking for something very specific.  One might say that it is my last resort with PI.  There is a contributor on this thread who has precisely the same camera and had similar process questions.  I have asked that person for a work flow and if the request is seen by him perhaps I will be in luck. 

 

I've posted questions here on CN for several years and I appreciate the expertise and generosity apparent here.  At the same time, often I get bombarded with irrelevant replies and replies which indicate my question has been misunderstood.   I try very hard now to narrow my questions to as fine a point as I can if I am looking for a fine point or detail.  I don't want to hijack this thread or create a flame session.  If there are no replies then I will understand that the precise reply I am looking for is not here and that is fine, I can use other means to reach my end. 



#198 desmc

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 03:35 PM

I've taken up AP within the last four months and recently upgraded from a DSLR to an ASI 2600 MC Pro.

I'm still on a very steep learning curve. As far as PI is concerned, I do pre-processing by hand or use WBP depending on available time and the project.

For the former I distilled what I have been able to glean from CN, and from Warren Keller's seminal book and lightvortexastronomy.com,

into a single sided crib sheet. I've attached it in case anyone else might find it useful; it saves me from having to refer to the book or open a 

browser when I can't remember the key settings. (As noted on the sheet, parameters are assumed to have their default value unless otherwise stated.)

Please note, it assumes the omission of bias frames in the calibration process, as the

received wisdom is that they are unnecessary for cameras like the ASI 2600. Flats, flat darks and darks have been included, with the latter

also useful for cosmetic correction. Please let me know if there are any typos.

 

Best, Des 

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#199 cfosterstars

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Posted Today, 03:24 PM

Yes...I am looking for something very specific.  One might say that it is my last resort with PI.  There is a contributor on this thread who has precisely the same camera and had similar process questions.  I have asked that person for a work flow and if the request is seen by him perhaps I will be in luck. 

 

I've posted questions here on CN for several years and I appreciate the expertise and generosity apparent here.  At the same time, often I get bombarded with irrelevant replies and replies which indicate my question has been misunderstood.   I try very hard now to narrow my questions to as fine a point as I can if I am looking for a fine point or detail.  I don't want to hijack this thread or create a flame session.  If there are no replies then I will understand that the precise reply I am looking for is not here and that is fine, I can use other means to reach my end. 

 

 

Larry...I am new to CMOS imaging.  I have a ASI1600mm as you do.  I have requested on this thread a concise workflow for calibration.  I am wondering if you have masted calibrating with this camera and could share the work flow and settings with me?  Thanks George

 

 

Hmmmmm.  I am looking for a graphic workflow (pdf) with screen shots of each step for calibrating a set of CMOS (ASI1600mm) images.  I know there are many many variables but I need a working starting point.  Please not the books, lectures, videos, articles and other great references.

 

I am not a beginner!  I am new to CMOS though and have run into trouble producing a good calibrated image with my usual software (nebulosity) and need to move into PI which I have had for years but always drift away due to the ease of nebulosity and relative complexity of PI.

 

I am not looking for hows and whys.  I am looking for a clear and concise path to start with and learn from that path.  I am viewing the plethora of videos which are great but I need a hand held graphic primer to sit at my computer with. 

 

I know this is a lot to ask for and I am not look for a brow beating. 

 

Looking at Christopher Fosters book right now.  Amazing work.

All,

 

The section on calibration through to creating master light frames is not that involved in my book. The easiest thing is to get the settings from my book and create a set of process icons that you can reuse and repopulate with new frames as you do an image. I am currently processing about 9 difference data sets and I can do it in my sleep - I often do. Its not that hard. I cover it in detail in the section and at the end of the book are the simple workflows. The index of the box is linked to the sections so you only have to clip to go to the right section and I am available for questions as you need them.



#200 George P Dunham

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Posted Today, 06:26 PM

I am following your book.  Thanks.  I have a discrete set of Lights, Darks, DarkFlats and Flats.  Each now with matching parameters.  They are narrow band data from two weeks ago.  I have a good library through cosmetic corrections.  I need to maybe repeat this a few times to make it routine.  My main weakness around this is a coherent filing structure.

 

I need to figure out short cuts and batch processes to do simple things like bulk flipping images that came from meridian flips and rejecting bad subs in an easier manor. 

 

There is some details I need to learn about gain and offsets and where to very them between bright, dim, rgb, nb ect.

 

It would be nice to see a graphic cheat sheet work flow.  So far your book is very much of what I need to learn CMOS processing.  I'm just scratching the surface.   I've been using nebulosity and it is sooo easy to produce a pretty picture but I'm out growing it and need ways to get around some major obstacles. 

 

The help here as usual is very much appreciated.




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