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Yes, I modified my Docter Aspectem to make the best 20x80 money can buy…

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#51 Mad Matt

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 01:10 PM

Are you an astronomer or a historian?

 

I'd think you would want conditions not like home - i.e., high elevation, low humidity, black zone darkness, etc.

 

Go west young man!

 

Those 80mm used at Stellafane (Yellow-Green zone; 1200ft elevation) would act more like 110mm if used at a darker, higher, drier star party locale and as an added bonus you'd have access to deep south targets like Omega Centauri and Centaurus A.

 

grin.gif

 

- Jim

LOL, very valid points!!! grin.gif

 

Having said that, for high altitude southern viewing I can easily fly to Namibia from Frankfurt blush.gif flowerred.gif grin.gif https://www.skyandte...-skies-namibia/


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#52 Mad Matt

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 01:13 PM

You should repost this over on the "what I saw last night..." thread....very good narrative. 

 

I particularly like your description of the nebulae around Sadr; I use them as a test of sky conditions.

 

High summer is indeed a treasure trove of MW goodies.

 

watching.gif

Ok, did that cool.gif



#53 Pinac

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:45 PM

I was out late last night with the 20.8x80 and its sister the 40x80 UWA. .....

.....

.....

shocked.gif  ... and I thought they were brothers ....


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#54 jrbarnett

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:57 PM

LOL, very valid points!!! grin.gif

 

Having said that, for high altitude southern viewing I can easily fly to Namibia from Frankfurt blush.gif flowerred.gif grin.gif https://www.skyandte...-skies-namibia/

Now, now.  Mt. Konigstein is the highest peak in Namibia.  It's just 2600 meters (8500 feet).  That summit is what we consider a nice campsite for astronomy part way up the mountain.  :grin:  It reminds me of when Scots talk about mountains.  There are no mountains in Scotland.  People in places with mountains call those things "hills".

 

Of course Namibia gives you great darkness and great deep southern views.  I visited Namibia in 1985 and really enjoyed it.  No telescope unfortunately but some decent 7x50 Porros made for great fun.

 

- Jim 


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#55 Mad Matt

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:30 AM

shocked.gif  ... and I thought they were brothers ....

Actually, I fear that we are both wrong, they are neither brothers, nor sisters. Please let me digress... Docter Germany calls these "Aussichtsfernrohr" - which for the non-German speaking audience literally translates into "view-far-pipe", but we won't go there lol.gif.

 

The German word "Fernrohr" is gender neutral ( i.e. das Fernrohr) which means these two should simply be called siblings. blush.gif flowerred.gif grin.gif lol.gif  Of course if these were binoculars (German: das Fernglas) the same would still be true... but we all know, they are not binoculars but "view-far-pipes" grin.gif

 

I have now corrected the original post tongue2.gif


Edited by Mad Matt, 10 July 2018 - 12:34 AM.


#56 C.Hay

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:05 AM

Matt, this Figure-8 asterism you mention intrigues me. I'm mostly out with an ATM (Wolf Wellnitz) 80mm binoscope at 14x to 32x, occasionally also with the old 20-50x80 Zeiss-Jena Vario Aspectem, and when I lug out the ATM (Jochen Schell) 125mm binoscope I've taken to operating it at 20x, so this sounds likes something I could experience well. Could you document it with a drawing, photo or something? How large is it, how bright are the brightest and faintest members, how many members?

 

Should this sound like an obsessive interest in an asterism, I shall mention in my defense that I've produced, together with my friend Rene Merting, what is to my knowledge the largest annotated collection of asterisms to be found online (folks, correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to find something better out there!):

https://www.freunde-...te/sternmuster/

 

You're likely to find a few items in there that show up really well in your Aspectems.

For starters, I'll call your attention to the second entry in the above collection, Alessi J0022.7+5417, a little-known yet delightful Mini-Cassiopeia in, yes, Cassiopeia.

 

CS, Christopher


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#57 Mad Matt

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:37 AM

Matt, this Figure-8 asterism you mention intrigues me. I'm mostly out with an ATM (Wolf Wellnitz) 80mm binoscope at 14x to 32x, occasionally also with the old 20-50x80 Zeiss-Jena Vario Aspectem, and when I lug out the ATM (Jochen Schell) 125mm binoscope I've taken to operating it at 20x, so this sounds likes something I could experience well. Could you document it with a drawing, photo or something? How large is it, how bright are the brightest and faintest members, how many members?

 

Should this sound like an obsessive interest in an asterism, I shall mention in my defense that I've produced, together with my friend Rene Merting, what is to my knowledge the largest annotated collection of asterisms to be found online (folks, correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to find something better out there!):

https://www.freunde-...te/sternmuster/

 

You're likely to find a few items in there that show up really well in your Aspectems.

For starters, I'll call your attention to the second entry in the above collection, Alessi J0022.7+5417, a little-known yet delightful Mini-Cassiopeia in, yes, Cassiopeia.

 

CS, Christopher

Christopher, when I noticed it, you were the first person I thought of. You turned me on to this kind of thing and are fully to blame smile.gif

 

Here is a Skysafari screenshot with an outline of what I believe to have seen. There is a straight chain of stars running from NNE to SSW that was more evident through the eyepiece then what Skysafari renders. That was the first thing to catch my eye. the rest just kind of crystallised from there. Maybe you will see something else smile.gif

 

The circle represents the 3.1° FoV of the 20.8x80 and includes the cardinal directions. Sadr is at the top right.

 

Angled eight.jpeg


Edited by Mad Matt, 10 July 2018 - 09:38 AM.


#58 C.Hay

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 06:12 AM

Dear Matt,

 

I spent a good part of last night checking out your Figure 8. I used a 125mm binoscope (Jochen Schell's work of art, made using two Borg 125 EDs and large Matsumoto EMS) at 20x to 32x. My observing site is probably worse than yours and my eyes certainly are, so that's not cheating compared to you with your Aspectems, I feel.

 

Rooting around, I quickly saw a squashed sort of Figure 8. A star chain through its middle lead out and northwards to a distinct condensation of stars that looked like it should have a name, so I looked in the Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas: Aha, Bica 1 and Bica 2, nice!

 

However, comparing the map to your screenshot, I saw my Figure 8 was the wrong one. And Bica 1 + 2 is involved in your figure. Back to the eyepiece: yes, now I got it. I started concentrating on the reddish hue of the brightest star in Bica 2, and went back to the map and screenshot to sort things out.

 

Hell's bells, I had a "wrong" Figure 8 once again! Back to the eyepiece again. Now, third try, I got your 8 matching your screenshot.

 

What all this shows is that there are so many star chains, arcs and ellipses in this region that each observer will probably see different things, and one observer will find all sorts of things depending on the instrument used.

 

I enjoyed this session enormously. It was a great opportunity to case out the region of Bica 1 + 2, which has long interested me. (I wrote a piece on the region last year, which may interest those who can read German: https://www.freunde-...tionen/cyg-ob2/ ). Now, after last night's intense perusal, I feel visually really at home there.

 

Asterisms have two functions: One is plain aesthetic pleasure. The other is providing orientation in star fields. Your 8 and the others I saw last night are all hugely useful in providing orientation in this otherwise seemingly structureless field.

 

CS, Christopher


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#59 Mad Matt

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 07:21 AM

Hi Christopher, I was also out last night with the Aspectem. I looked for the asterism and also saw a figure 8 but I also think it was a different one then what I posted. I did that from memory so I would apply more doubt to it then to your eyes :-)

I will check out your article on Bica 1+2, looks very interesting! Many thanks!

#60 Mad Matt

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:32 PM

aaaaand... now this happened:

 

Aspectem/APM 24mm Closeup

 

I was not happy with the lack of eye relief of the Panoptics so I replaced them with the APM 24mm UFF. I had to shortened the barrels on the APM 24mm UFF so they would reach focus, and then 3D printed a helicoid focuser assembly and new prism covers for them. Minimum IPD is now limited to 60mm but this is not a problem for me (my IPD is 63). 

 

Initial daytime impressions are very positive. The eye relief is perfect for my deep set eyes. Center sharpness is equal to the Panoptics but as expected, edge sharpness is a little behind. Where as with the panoptic, stars are literal pinpoint to the field stop, in the UFF they get very slightly out of focus in the last 5% (or maybe less). When looking at the central 50% the difference between both eyepieces is not really noticeable.

 

The lack of distortion in the APM 24mm is definitely another advantage. I did not like the daytime views with the Panoptics very much due to the distortion. 

 

I still need to test them under the stars but I think I will be very happy with these. grin.gif


Edited by Mad Matt, 16 August 2018 - 12:35 PM.

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#61 Mad Matt

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 04:29 PM

Just came back in from a quick session on the back patio. There was surprisingly good transparency making my normally Bortle 6 skies almost Bortle 5. bigshock.gif

 

They are now very comfortable to use. The center sharpness that can be considered to be "excellent". The sharpness at the edge is not as good as with the panoptics but still better then most binoculars of this size. (don't forget, the objective are f6.25 as opposed to f4 - f4.5 of most other binoculars in this class).

 

Views of luna where very pleasant with no CA visible in the center nor towards the edge. Another point in favour of the APM. 

 

The field stop is sharp with only a slight hint of vignetting. I found this to be most interesting as the panoptics had not only a slightly smaller FoV (3.1° as opposed to 3.2° these provide) but also showed the vignetting more pronounced which made the field stop slightly fuzzy. I imagine the field corrector lens plays a role in how vignetting presents itself to the eye. Someday I need to ray trace that to figure out what is going on.

 

I can now say that I am VERY pleased with these and I am sure they will provide many years of lovely views, both day and night smile.gif


Edited by Mad Matt, 17 August 2018 - 03:47 AM.

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#62 Mad Matt

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 04:17 AM

And to close this out, a few pictures of the siblings blush.gif cool.gif

 

IMG 6483
IMG 6481
IMG 6482

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#63 Mad Matt

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 03:35 AM

I thought I would give everyone an update on this. I have actually gone back to the Panoptics. bigshock.gif

 

The 24mm APM worked quite well but the better edge sharpness of the Panoptics is what I enjoy more. I simply value edge sharpness a lot and I now realize I am willing to sacrifice a little viewing comfort in order to get it. The 24mm APM's will enter service as wide field eyepieces with the APM 100 ED so nothing is lost. flowerred.gif  


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#64 Erik Bakker

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 03:48 AM

Matt, there is a lot of power in finding out what you appreciate most and making decisions to facilitate that  goodjob.gif


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#65 StarDustBin

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:41 AM

Great and interesting topic Matt. Thank you for sharing this load of valuable info.

 

Good to see your DIY skills too. Your very thought out heavy duty P-mount was already out of the normal designs one sees around and this modification of your Aspectems just comes to confirm your technological skills.

 

Congratulations, I enjoyed a lot reading this topic. waytogo.gif


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#66 Mad Matt

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 03:53 AM

Another update... I modified a pair of 9mm Morpheus and printed helicoid focusers for them so they could be mounted on the Aspectem. This gives me a 55x80 with a 1.39° FoV... perfect for the galaxies and globulars of spring. The 1.4mm exit pupil is at the lower limit of what I like to use for DSO's but due to the excellent sharpness, coatings, and transmission of the Aspectem, the image does not "feel" dark. Also the generous eye relief makes the small EP very accessible and comfortable to use.

 

For those wondering why... I use these exclusively with my P-Mount... now imagine laying on your back, completely relaxed in a reclining chair, and observing little gems like M106, NGC4449 or NGC4490 as they pass near zenith where my skies are their darkest and seeing is best. blush.gif smile.gif Sure, an 8" Dob will show more, but not as relaxed and enjoyable in my opinion flowerred.gif smile.gif

 

Here are a few pictures:

 

IMG 6972
 
IMG 6974
 
IMG 6973

Edited by Mad Matt, 06 May 2019 - 04:32 AM.

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#67 Beg

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 09:35 AM

With the 9mm Morph being one of my favorite EP's ever with my BT, I find that very intriguing  wink.gif   But I can't help but imagine that it would just a little bit to dark for galaxies. Just on the threshold of not quite there. But, I know that you know what you are doing. Try to split the double double with that setup. Curious if you can.



#68 Mad Matt

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 10:17 AM

With the 9mm Morph being one of my favorite EP's ever with my BT, I find that very intriguing  wink.gif   But I can't help but imagine that it would just a little bit to dark for galaxies. Just on the threshold of not quite there. But, I know that you know what you are doing. Try to split the double double with that setup. Curious if you can.

Double double: No... the Aspectem are magical, but not THAT magical grin.gif I actually tried but 55x is obviously not enough to cleanly split the individual A/B and C/D components. In the past I have needed at least 80x with my 100er APM to do that and even then it was difficult. IIRC above 90x they start to become obvious splits.

 

Galaxies: Obviously, due to the limited aperture, at least 6 mag skies are needed if I want to go galaxy hunting with these. When I tested them under roughly mag. 6 skies, moving along Markarian's chain I was able to see M84 (9m), M86 (8.8m) directly, and could see NGC4388 indirectly. I thought I could see a little fuzziness in the middle of the triangle (NGC 4387, 12m) but I am sure that was more wishful thinking than anything else. Moving along I could see both components of the eyes galaxies (NGC4435, 10.6m and NGC4438 10m), I don't recall seeing NGC 4458 (12m) but I was just able to barely catch NGC4461 (10.9m) indirectly. Obviously no details where visible and dark adaption is an absolute must. It may take a little learning but "high" magnification and small exit pupils on the faint fuzzies can still be a lot of fun.

 

What turned out to be a real eye opener was M13. At 40x with the normal Aspectem, M13 is is a wonderful sight but many details such as the "tentacles" that O'Meara has sketched are difficult if not impossible to pick out due to the lack of magnification. At 55x they where pretty obvious. cool.gif  Now I am really looking forward to M5 next new moon. wink.gif


Edited by Mad Matt, 06 May 2019 - 10:33 AM.


#69 Beg

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 10:41 AM

Double double: No... the Aspectem are magical, but not THAT magical grin.gif I actually tried but 55x is obviously not enough to cleanly split the individual A/B and C/D components. In the past I have needed at least 80x with my 100er APM to do that and even then it was difficult. IIRC above 90x they start to become obvious splits.

 

Galaxies: Obviously, due to the limited aperture, at least 6 mag skies are needed if I want to go galaxy hunting with these. When I tested them under roughly Mag. 6 skies, moving along Markarian's chain I was able to see M84 (9m), M86 (8.8m) directly, and could see NGC4388 indirectly. I thought I could see a little fuzziness in the middle of the triangle (NGC 4387, 12m) but I am sure that was more wishful thinking than anything else. Moving along I could see both components of the eyes galaxies (NGC4435, 10.6m and NGC4438 10m), I don't recall seeing NGC 4458 (12m) but I was just able to barely catch NGC4461 (10.9m) indirectly. Obviously no details where visible and dark adaption is an absolute must. It may take a little learning but "high" magnification and small exit pupils on the faint fuzzies can still be a lot of fun.

I have gotten an obvious split with my 100XL ED with the 9mm at 62X in my dark mountain skies during brief moments of good seeing and clarity from the jet stream. Wondered if the Aspectem could eek it out at a little less smile.gif  I have not used the 9mm yet this Spring on the Galaxies. Very curious now. I will try tonight as it looks clear.



#70 Mad Matt

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 12:42 PM

I have gotten an obvious split with my 100XL ED with the 9mm at 62X in my dark mountain skies during brief moments of good seeing and clarity from the jet stream. Wondered if the Aspectem could eek it out at a little less smile.gif  I have not used the 9mm yet this Spring on the Galaxies. Very curious now. I will try tonight as it looks clear.

I will have to give it a shot. The double double was just coming over the tree tops when I was out on Friday so it was still pretty low. 



#71 Andeas72202

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 01:08 PM

Hi Matt,

 

Great work! The following sentence struck me:

 

 

and printed helicoid focusers

Could you explain how you did it and give some details regarding design and materials used? Just very curious flowerred.gif

 

Andreas



#72 Mad Matt

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 02:31 PM

Hi Matt,

 

Great work! The following sentence struck me:

 

Could you explain how you did it and give some details regarding design and materials used? Just very curious flowerred.gif

 

Andreas

 

"Printed helicoid focusers" is an abbreviation for: I spent hours modeling a 2 start 10mm pitch trapezoid thread in AutoCad and printing prototypes to figure out the workable design and to get the tolerances right. 

 

The focuser consists of 3 parts. There is the housing that contains a female tread and a male thread that is mounted on the eyepiece barrel. The third part is simply a retaining ring to keep the thread from fully backing out.

 

Here is a picture of one of the female threaded section of one of the prototypes. You can also see the M52x1 thread that is also printed. That is actually how they attach to the binocular body and the Shapeways service prints at tight enough tolerances that they work without having to prep them.

IMG 6987
 
This is the other end with the expanding section, over which the retaining ring slips and is held in place by a high tec adhesive backed polymer ring otherwise known as "electric tape" tongue2.gif  (You can see that in the pictures above) That is what keeps eyepieces from unscrewing all the way and falling out:
IMG 6988

 

I will see if I can generate some images from CAD as soon as my daughter lets me have my laptop back. blush.gif Or you can PM me and I can simply send you the STL files.

I used a selective laser sintered nylon printing service (Shapeways) to generate the parts. Though a combination of guesswork, trial and error, and luck, the tolerances allow the parts to barely be threaded together when they come out of the printer. I then use 80 and 220 grit silicon carbide (the stuff used for grinding mirrors) mixed with soap to lap the tread to the point where it moves smoothly without binding. I then put it in the freezer at -20°C to test that it still works in the cold wink.gif

 

I had to shorten the barrels of the eyepieces 4mm to ensure I had enough in focus while staying clear of the prisms. Figuring out all those dimensions actually took the biggest amount of effort.

 

I really love 3D printing. Since I am not an engineer, its a lot easier for me to design additive parts then to design a part only to discover that the CNC mill is not capable of machining it.... and of course printing these cost me only about 40$ per eyepiece ($80 total) which is nothing compared to the $$$ this would have cost to have them CNC machined from aluminium.

 

I hope that helps.


Edited by Mad Matt, 08 May 2019 - 03:11 PM.

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#73 Andeas72202

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 05:24 AM

Hi Matt,

 

thanks for the informations. So the ep´s are kept in place by this hightech electric tape or by compression due to the retaining ring? Does the helicoid focusing mechnism require some kind of lubricant or is it smooth enough due to the grinding?

 

I am still looking for solutions for 2" focusers that would be suitable for binoscopic use. As I am no engineer as well, I am not sure how to do the design and create CAD-files that can be used for 3D-printing, But if material properties are right, 3D-printing could be a way to go.

 

Andreas



#74 Mad Matt

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 05:54 AM

Hi Matt,

 

thanks for the informations. So the ep´s are kept in place by this hightech electric tape or by compression due to the retaining ring? Does the helicoid focusing mechnism require some kind of lubricant or is it smooth enough due to the grinding?

 

I am still looking for solutions for 2" focusers that would be suitable for binoscopic use. As I am no engineer as well, I am not sure how to do the design and create CAD-files that can be used for 3D-printing, But if material properties are right, 3D-printing could be a way to go.

 

Andreas

They don't require lubrication as nylon on nylon is self lubricating, but I do use a high viscosity opto-mechanical grease to provide a little damping. 



#75 PEterW

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 08:09 AM

Very interested as I am looking for compact 1.25”, didnt think to print one. For 3dprinting I usually leave 0.3-0.6mm clearance for things to fit without too much fettling. Laser sobered nylon will be strong, though I’ve extruded polycarbonate recently and that’s really tough too. As long as you don’t expect micron tolerances and surface finish then it’s good.

Peter
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