Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Long term status of Lunar Terminator Visualization Tool?

  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 PhilH

PhilH

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 621
  • Joined: 27 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Long Island, NY

Posted 02 July 2018 - 02:30 PM

With Wikispaces.com posting the ominous warning "It’s time to say farewell….. All free and classroom Wikis will become inaccessible at the end of this month. You must ensure any data that you require is exported before July 31st, 2018," does anyone know what will happen to the Lunar Terminator Visualization Tool?  It's a great resource and I'd hate to see it simply disappear.


  • Augustus likes this

#2 sc285

sc285

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 70
  • Joined: 25 Jun 2008
  • Loc: Northeastern KS

Posted 09 August 2018 - 06:35 PM

I appears this has completely disappeared unless someone archived it and hasn't found a home for it yet.

I have it on my PC laptops with as much as the add-ons as I could manage. What was really lost was all the tutorials on "how to" that went with it.

Jim hadn't done any updating on the software or wiki pages for quite some time. Don't know if he has all the archives or not.

Maybe someone with some webpage expertise could offer Jim a deal to host the LTVT somewhere else....

 

Rob Robinson

 

 



#3 John_Moore

John_Moore

    Author: Craters of the Nearside Moon

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 471
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2009

Posted 09 August 2018 - 07:43 PM

Think I downloaded the code sometime back: not sure, will have to check (it might be on an old computer - sigh: connecting mouse, screen, keyboard...etc.,).

 

Jim offered the code as free, but I did make several changes to the .ini files afterwards to suit own data (i.e. updated modern Lat/Long coordinates, positions of craters/features etc.,), as current mentions in the general astronomical media of such were/are incorrect.

 

John


Edited by Jayem, 10 August 2018 - 11:07 AM.


#4 John_Moore

John_Moore

    Author: Craters of the Nearside Moon

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 471
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2009

Posted 23 August 2018 - 04:59 AM

Finally got to connect the old computer (it weighs a ton - due to the solder amounts used back then), and found the LTVT code - written in Borland International's Delphi 6 programming language.

 

I'm not familiar in Delphi 6, but many of the files can be converted into .txt, and from there one could work out what part of code applies to the LTVT interface, change it to suit one's preference, and then re-convert it back to Delphi 6 code again - and run in appropriate compiler. If you require the code details, please do let me know. Btw...looked to see if there are files for all the tutorial stuff, but don't think so.

 

John Moore

PS. Will contact Jim, if I can...???...stay tuned.


Edited by Jayem, 23 August 2018 - 09:47 PM.


#5 John_Moore

John_Moore

    Author: Craters of the Nearside Moon

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 471
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2009

Posted 26 August 2018 - 05:08 PM

Got on to Jim...and he was of great help.

 

He backed up the files before the Wiki went down, and so he has given me links that might be of help in all things LTVT (note, there might be some hiccups with images etc.,, as deletion of the Wiki took out most, but the files should still be useful).

 

The first link is to the Wayback Machine, and as far as I've played with the files, a lot of the original material is still applicable - including the tuts.

The second link is to Jim's own OneDrive page, where the whole set of LTVT files can be downloaded. Note, it is in Zip format (ltvt_20180429-HTML.zip), and at 1.1 GB is a huge file - it took me several attempts to download it finally through my slow connection. Still, worth it in the end, and I now have them on my own computer. 

 

So, thanks again to Jim.

 

John Moore


Edited by Jayem, 26 August 2018 - 05:12 PM.

  • Carl Kolchak likes this

#6 PhilH

PhilH

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 621
  • Joined: 27 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Long Island, NY

Posted 27 August 2018 - 03:41 AM

Got on to Jim...and he was of great help.

 

He backed up the files before the Wiki went down, and so he has given me links that might be of help in all things LTVT (note, there might be some hiccups with images etc.,, as deletion of the Wiki took out most, but the files should still be useful).

 

The first link is to the Wayback Machine, and as far as I've played with the files, a lot of the original material is still applicable - including the tuts.

The second link is to Jim's own OneDrive page, where the whole set of LTVT files can be downloaded. Note, it is in Zip format (ltvt_20180429-HTML.zip), and at 1.1 GB is a huge file - it took me several attempts to download it finally through my slow connection. Still, worth it in the end, and I now have them on my own computer. 

 

So, thanks again to Jim.

 

John Moore

Thanks, John!  That's great!!  I had reached out to Jim via Wikispaces before it shut down, but never received a reply.  I am glad that you were more successful.

 

I just downloaded everything from Jim's OneDrive and will unzip it later.

 

I wonder if there are any plans to add it to the-moon.us. There is a page for it, but so far it only sends you to the wikispaces dead end.  Would certainly be a valuable addition!

 

Thanks again!


Edited by PhilH, 27 August 2018 - 03:45 AM.

  • John_Moore likes this

#7 Joe Eiers

Joe Eiers

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 660
  • Joined: 08 Sep 2011
  • Loc: Arcata, Ca.

Posted 31 August 2018 - 02:04 AM

It would really be great to see this going again!  Thanks for posting this...


  • John_Moore likes this

#8 Clarkw

Clarkw

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2018
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 05 October 2018 - 01:51 PM

Does anyone know here I can get the source files?

 

I've got the time to try to convert this over to something more modern (perhaps iOS/Android/macOS/*nix?) and am willing to do so.

 

I've searched the net and found the first and second links mentioned above but there is no associated source files, just the html fr the Wiki pages.

 

Would someone point me in the right direction please? Its frustrating reading about this tool and not being able to use it. smirk.gif

 

Thanks

Clarkw



#9 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 07 October 2018 - 04:17 PM

Does anyone know here I can get the source files?

 

I've got the time to try to convert this over to something more modern (perhaps iOS/Android/macOS/*nix?) and am willing to do so.

 

I've searched the net and found the first and second links mentioned above but there is no associated source files, just the html fr the Wiki pages.

 

Would someone point me in the right direction please? Its frustrating reading about this tool and not being able to use it. smirk.gif

 

Thanks

Clarkw

They are in this link to the big file in the dropbox which Jayem linked above:

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!...xetgNzw3cAgomNw



#10 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 07 October 2018 - 04:29 PM

Got on to Jim...and he was of great help.

 

He backed up the files before the Wiki went down, and so he has given me links that might be of help in all things LTVT (note, there might be some hiccups with images etc.,, as deletion of the Wiki took out most, but the files should still be useful).

 

The first link is to the Wayback Machine, and as far as I've played with the files, a lot of the original material is still applicable - including the tuts.

The second link is to Jim's own OneDrive page, where the whole set of LTVT files can be downloaded. Note, it is in Zip format (ltvt_20180429-HTML.zip), and at 1.1 GB is a huge file - it took me several attempts to download it finally through my slow connection. Still, worth it in the end, and I now have them on my own computer. 

 

So, thanks again to Jim.

 

John Moore

John, 

Do you think Jim be amenable to posting the code on Github or allowing someone else do so?  There are probably a few people who'd like to convert the code to languages in broader use.   There's code in there with utility beyond LTVT.    



#11 Clarkw

Clarkw

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2018
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 07 October 2018 - 07:46 PM

Okay I finally found the source files.

 

Download ltvt_20180429-HTML.zip (1.8GB) and unzip it. (The first or second link will get you to this huge download.)

 

For anyone else who wants to know they are buried in the "files" folder which contains jpeg, txt, html and zip files. The .pas files are in those zip files.

 

I've started trying to set up a delphi pascal development structure to see if it is possible to compile the original sources and to examine the original code layout. We'll see what happens.

 

Don't let me stop anyone else from working on this.

 

ClarkW


  • John_Moore likes this

#12 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 08 October 2018 - 08:29 AM

Some links that may be of help:

 

Here's the wayback machine's Feb 2018 copy of the original downloads page:

 

http://web.archive.o...oad-Source Code

 

On that page is a link to the source code file with this text:

 

Source Code
LTVT is written in the Delphi 6 programming language (a Windows-oriented dialect of Pascal). The source files from which it was compiled are available here:
LTVT_Source_Code_v0_21_4.zip   LTVT_Source_Code_v0_21_4.zip
Details  Download  328 KB   (328 KB; rev. 8 Nov 2010)

 

That's the zip you should look for if you're downloading the big archive on the dropbox link posted above.   I won't share that small file or files in it without the author's permission.   Source files in it, however, make reference to and have code for equations and data in this 1989  paper:  

 

Edit:  The paper has 3 parts.  Here are direct PDF links to them:  

 

Part I

MEAN AND APPARENT PLACE COMPUTATIONS IN THE NEW IAU SYSTEM. I.
THE TRANSFORMATION OF ASTROMETRIC CATALOG SYSTEMS TO THE EQUINOX J2000.0

 

Part II

MEAN AND APPARENT PLACE COMPUTATIONS IN THE NEW IAU SYSTEM. II.
TRANSFORMATION OF MEAN STAR PLACES FROM FK4 B1950.0 TO FK5 J2000.0 USING MATRICES
IN 6-SPACE

 

Part III

MEAN AND APPARENT PLACE COMPUTATIONS IN THE NEW IAU SYSTEM. III. APPARENT,
TOPOCENTRIC, AND ASTROMETRIC PLACES OF PLANETS AND STARS

These papers reference:   

 

The IAU Resolutions on Astronomical Constants, Time Scales, and the Fundamental Reference Frame  here (1981.   More recent:  2005)

 

It is noted in Part I above that getting software which modelled the paper to work for star positions took a lot of effort, and that's documented here.  

 


Edited by JonTeets, 08 October 2018 - 11:28 AM.

  • Clarkw likes this

#13 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 08 October 2018 - 11:05 AM

This prompts the question:  might a safer approach for performing the heavy lifting of the calculations be to make a start with the code it was ported into Pascal from?  And are there more recent versions?   As it turns out, the question to the later is yes: 

 

Python (the most recent, 2015): 
http://aa.usno.navy....vaspy_intro.php
The Python version calls into the C version:

 

C (2011, manual):
http://aa.usno.navy....novasc_info.php

(also available here:  https://github.com/i...stronomy/novas)

 

I got there by way of  this

 

Kaplan's webpage got me there.  (worth the read, he retired in 2005 and has updated it as recently as last year's eclipse.)

 

Without tests or code coverage, it's hard for me to say how much of the code in the relevant file (H_NOVAS.pas) is used in LTVT.

 


Edited by JonTeets, 08 October 2018 - 11:38 AM.


#14 Clarkw

Clarkw

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2018
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:40 PM

John,

Your information this morning (see above two replies) is incredibly valuable.

Although the Wayback Machine archive still keeps saying it cannot find the archive of the 23 nor the 24 source.

Thank you for your assistance.

 

 

For anyone interested:

I appreciate everyone pointing me to the sources and I've carefully read the suggestions and I am considering each of them.

 

My hope:

In-the-end I'm doing this for me to use the app. If that sounds self serving then I will add that my intent is that kids should be able to use the slightly downgraded app and for a very nominal cost (99¢ seem too extreme?) while professional scientists and amateurs should be able to use the complete app for more money ($4.99 sound unreachable?). Why? Not because it pays me or the volunteers who may participate in the open source project but because it keeps the servers online. Keeping the servers online and at a reasonable access rate costs money. The above is intended to offset those costs.

 

Availability:

I want to turn this into open-source, modularized, expandable, with all libraries freely available to anyone who needs them, Which means if you want the source files to compile and build yourself then the app is free. If you want the installable, working app all bundled up it will cost you either 99¢ or perhaps $4.99

 

Languages:

I would love to engage in language wars with anyone as long as the conversation is civil and backed up with FACTual data. "The c Programming language" is an awful language (see Bjorne Stroustrup's first edition of C++, Preface). Python is worse. These are my conclusions after 50-years of doing this stuff and building apps with c/C++(99, 11,17, 20 and every other date-flavored update)/python/ruby/Pascal/Modula 2/Oberon/objective forms of these/ and over 300 other languages from writing compilers for those languages to writing app in those languages. Right now I'm leaning toward a multi-language approach: Swift and perhaps C++ (20). Swift is feature rich and is open source. The fact that Apple picked it as their attempt to update Objective-C doesn't matter. When you're contrary to everything you're bound to be right about something. C++ because it gives Python bigots and C/C++ bigots something-to-hang-on-to.

 

WEB based or Desktop:

Desktop (laptop/tablet/etceteras). Astronomy is often conducted where there is no signal.

 

Requirements:

I need to get permission from old authors to take their code open source. That could be problematical if they are reluctant to give their assent. However there may bed ways around that part but I prefer not to explore that route if the original authors don't want to grant their permission.

 

That is my plan. I've gotten some of the pascal code to compile, not without errors but those errors for the most part are old MFC Visual Studio I/O calls.

 

Just thought some of you might like to know what is going on.

 

Assistance:

I plan on putting it on BitBucket so I can stay away from MicroSlime touching any part of this. You'll be able to download/assist in development by grabbing the git repository. All of this shows up when I finalize my approach.

 

If anyone knows how I may get in touch with the original authors for permission to proceed please shoot me a personal email (see my profile, please do not rely to this topic for that).

 

ClarkW



#15 John_Moore

John_Moore

    Author: Craters of the Nearside Moon

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 471
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2009

Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:50 PM

Clarkw...you probably mean 'Jon' (Teets) as opposed to 'John' (Moore)...yes?...in your last comment?

 

Our individual information, links and resources, comments supplied are relevantly resourced.

 

John Moore

PS. With no effects to Jon Teets


Edited by Jayem, 08 October 2018 - 06:53 PM.


#16 Clarkw

Clarkw

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2018
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:54 PM

I apologize to Jon and John. Indeed yes I did mean Jon. I plead old fingers and muscle-memory.

 

ClarkW



#17 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:55 PM

I'll most likely build something for my own use in Javascript on Nodejs, perhaps with Typescript to provide some type system guard rails and a more mainstream model of OO.   Visual Studio Code's use of JS/TS on Electron shows it's viable in desktop apps if I need that eventually.    

 

I tend not to get too hung up on the language choice.  If Delphi were living and breathing and ran on my Macbook, Windows 10 Insider version and my System76 Linux laptop,  I'd be fine with that.   I used mostly C/C++ in the first part of my career (the 80s through the early 2000s), C and C# after that when I worked for Microsoft starting in the mid-2000s. Since then it's been Java and Objective C for mobile work and Python/C for ML.  (And who can get away from html/css/js?) 

 

These days I care a lot more about not having to be smart at anything the computer is capable of doing.  I want lots of tests, some BDD, source control that makes it easy to run lots of experiments without having to think at all about getting back to a sane state if needed...  and all the static and dynamic analysis that makes it easy to keep code clean all along the way.  I like uncommented code that tells you what it's doing in English and tests which ensure that it's not lying.   I prefer Python's brevity, portability and expressiveness.  I can appreciate the need for speedy c in some cases.



#18 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:57 PM

I apologize to Jon and John. Indeed yes I did mean Jon. I plead old fingers and muscle-memory.

 

ClarkW

No sweat -- you can confuse me for John all you want, just don't expect the concomitant skill or wisdom from me.  :)



#19 Clarkw

Clarkw

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2018
  • Loc: Southern California

Posted 08 October 2018 - 07:08 PM

I'll most likely build something for my own use in Javascript on Nodejs, perhaps with Typescript to provide some type system guard rails and a more mainstream model of OO.   Visual Studio Code's use of JS/TS on Electron shows it's viable in desktop apps if I need that eventually.    

 

I tend not to get too hung up on the language choice.  If Delphi were living and breathing and ran on my Macbook, Windows 10 Insider version and my System76 Linux laptop,  I'd be fine with that.   I used mostly C/C++ in the first part of my career (the 80s through the early 2000s), C and C# after that when I worked for Microsoft starting in the mid-2000s. Since then it's been Java and Objective C for mobile work and Python/C for ML.  (And who can get away from html/css/js?) 

 

These days I care a lot more about not having to be smart at anything the computer is capable of doing.  I want lots of tests, some BDD, source control that makes it easy to run lots of experiments without having to think at all about getting back to a sane state if needed...  and all the static and dynamic analysis that makes it easy to keep code clean all along the way.  I like uncommented code that tells you what it's doing in English and tests which ensure that it's not lying.   I prefer Python's brevity, portability and expressiveness.  I can appreciate the need for speedy c in some cases.

I don't disagree "in theory" with this approach -- heck you could write this in TCL/TK if you needed to do so. Whatever people are comfortable with is fine.

Bad experiences working with MS. Won't do it again. But just about any *nix box (not AIX) on the face of the planet and a fair number of really obscure Operating Systems -- I'll happily tackle those.

 

ClarkW



#20 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 08 October 2018 - 08:53 PM

John,

Your information this morning (see above two replies) is incredibly valuable.

Although the Wayback Machine archive still keeps saying it cannot find the archive of the 23 nor the 24 source.

Thank you for your assistance.

 

 

As you've downloaded the 1.8gb file, you should have the html file the Wayback Machine references.  After unzipping the archive, the file for me is:

/Downloads/ltvt/mainSpace/LTVT%20Download.html

clicking on the source link lets me "download" the source file.   Alternatively, it is in the archive:

/Downloads/ltvt/mainSpace/files/LTVT_Source_Code_v0_21_4.zip



#21 John_Moore

John_Moore

    Author: Craters of the Nearside Moon

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 471
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2009

Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:07 PM

Oops...Jon versus John quotes being referenced...again?

 

I do understand the spelling issue: a bit like code - it can be confusing for readers, for reference, for comments said.

 

John Moore

PS...sorry, if I sound picky, finicky...etc.


Edited by Jayem, 09 October 2018 - 08:07 AM.


#22 John_Moore

John_Moore

    Author: Craters of the Nearside Moon

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 471
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2009

Posted 08 October 2018 - 11:41 PM

Exclusive: "None of this was ever intended to be proprietary, so anyone who would like to is welcome to post it wherever they like, and do with it whatever they like." - Jim Mosher

 

Thanks again to Jim.

John Moore


Edited by Jayem, 09 October 2018 - 08:22 AM.


#23 azure1961p

azure1961p

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 13816
  • Joined: 17 Jan 2009
  • Loc: Triton

Posted 14 October 2018 - 09:24 AM

It was a stand-alone program that seemed even essential . So sad its gone. Looking forward to others working it.

 

Pete



#24 JonTeets

JonTeets

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016
  • Loc: In a light patch

Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:40 AM

I've made a little progress on this.  There's a lot left to do, but you should be able to get at most everything that used to be available:

 

The LTVT Wiki: 

https://github.com/fermigas/ltvt/wiki

 

Downloads:

LTVT Downloads (https://github.com/f...i/LTVT-Download)

Other Downloads (https://github.com/f.../wiki/Downloads)

 

 

The LTVT Source Code and Binaries 

https://github.com/fermigas/ltvt

 

A (fluid) Status page:  TODOs, What's Done and how you can help if so inclined.

https://github.com/f...-To--Contribute


Edited by JonTeets, 14 October 2018 - 11:41 AM.

  • PhilH and Carl Kolchak like this

#25 Gaff

Gaff

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2019

Posted 21 July 2019 - 07:46 PM

I know this goes back a bit, I still have this from few years back and enjoy using it to id craters. I just have the low res skin and dem. Curious how to add the higher res images into it if anyone knows?  I see some Kaguya images and other really nice hi res stuff in files from the links above. Thanks for any help.




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics